General problems with Deckbuilding
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on March 28, 2019, 5:37 a.m. by marco-piatti
Hello everyone, i'm new to this format so i have very little experience in terms of deckbuilding. I would like to ask a couple questions:
1)when you are facing aggro players what are the best wrath effect cards to slow them down? And how many of them should you run in your deck? Of course a card like Damnation is great because with a mana cost of 4 it allows you to wipe the entire board. But for other cards is it more important for them to cost less to wipe out smaller creatures (like Drown in Sorrow ) or maybe to cost more but to be one sided (like In Garruk's Wake )? Also how many single creature removal cards like Fatal Push should i put in?
2) Same goes for counterspells.. how many of them should you run in your deck?Of course if you are a control player you would run more than if you are an aggro one but more ore less how many?
3) About Draw cards: if your deck is not already based on drawing as many cards as possible, how many cards that allows you to draw are you supposed to put in your deck?
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I think it really depends on your meta and deck. For example, in my creature killing deck, I run around 10-12, but in other decks I might run around 3-5, since I don't want to field wipe as often if I'm using a higher number of creatures. I would say low effect field wipes aren't as useful against most creature based decks, since they'll be focusing on making their creatures huge. I would say at least 4 spot removal cards in your deck, dependent on meta. If you have ways of repeatedly removing creatures, or part of your strategy involves it, then use those sparingly.
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Once again, it depends on the meta and your deck itself. But some decks don't run them at all and thats fine. Not every deck needs them. And remember, there's more than one way to disrupt other decks game plans or protect your own, which is why you use them.
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This one is hard, but generally my rule is if you haven't had axis to every card in your deck by turn 30, your deck will need more in terms of card advantage. Also this means things such as recursion, tutoring, etc.
While all of these are important, I'd say your best rule is to run a deck with over 30% of your deck being utility cards including removal, ramp and card advantage, over 30% being the strategy your deck is based on and over 30% of your deck being lands and miscellaneous stuff. The best way to do all of this is to find things that overlap as a way to make them work best. And of course, how much of each kind really depends on what you regularly face off against and what you're playing. For example, it might be better to play Thought Vessel if you're running a deck that's dependent on hand size than a Commander's Sphere , but vice versa if you're running a deck that is very color intensive.
March 28, 2019 8:11 a.m.
AkrosTheClear says... #5
the best boardwipes are cards that work in the highest number of different situations. what are you going to do when you have In Garruk's Wake in hand on turn 5 when you're facing down a lethal board of vampires. The same goes thing goes for Drown in Sorrow , it's not bad turn 3 to clear the board of dorks, but what if you top deck turn 11 when you're looking for an answer to Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre . The other thing you should focus on in boardwipes is mana cost. The best boardwipes allow you to wipe the board and follow it up with another play.
With all of that being said here are some of my favorites, boardwipes that I never let my decks leave home without: Damnation , Wrath of God , or Day of Judgment Blasphemous Act Austere Command Toxic Deluge Merciless Eviction Hour of Revelation
I rarely ever run single target removal in my commander decks anymore, instead running boardwipes, or multi target removal cards such as Decimate or Crush Contraband . You can never hope to generate card advantage if you always plan on trading 1 for 1 with your opponent.
And for the last question, put in as much card draw effects as you possibly can, not one time uses like Read the Bones , but cards that draw over time like Phyrexian Arena or Grim Haruspex .
March 28, 2019 9:58 a.m.
Another way to counter aggressive players is to build your own defences. Ensnaring Bridge , Ghostly Prison , Propaganda , Sphere of Safety , Lightmine Field , Dissipation Field , No Mercy , and other cards can really punish an aggressive deck.
Aggressive decks also generally want to play a lot of spells very quickly, so stax pieces--cards that tax players--disproportionately harm their deck's plan. Cards like Damping Sphere , Sphere of Resistance , etc. are all great ways to slow down an aggressive deck to buy you time to set up your own victory.
AkrosTheClear - SynergyBuild made a very compelling argument against Phyrexian Arena. Essentially, the argument is as follows: Phyrexian Arena has no immediate advantage, and it takes two whole turns before you net the same number of cards as Read the Bones (without the possibility of scrying). Two turns can be enough to decide the game in EDH, so you're better off spending those three mana on the immediate card draw of Read the Bones .
Now, there are some great repeatable card draw effects that should be considered for slots if you are in their colours. Necropotence , Mystic Remora , and Rhystic Study , for example, all provide much greater card drawing potential than spells with their respective converted mana costs, making them strong options for a deck.
March 28, 2019 10:37 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #7
cdkime * tears up *
It is happening .... * wells up * .... my resources are being used!
March 28, 2019 11:04 a.m.
marco-piatti says... #8
Thanks everyone for your advices! I'm currently running a Scarab God deck so it's black/blue.. I will try to make an optimized list soon with a maybeboard with the other cards i own and could eventually run in the "Deck Help" section in order to get specific advices.
March 28, 2019 11:15 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #9
Incredible that we haven't seen Crawlspace , Cyclonic Rift , or any counters ( Negate , Disdainful Stroke , Glen Elendra Archmage ). Other than those, though, we've got a TON of good material here. Should be more than enough.
March 28, 2019 11:22 a.m.
marco-piatti says... #10
thanks ZendikariWol i didn't know of Crawlspace that will be super usefull against aggro..
March 28, 2019 12:17 p.m.
AkrosTheClear says... #11
Here's my argument for Phyrexian Arena , not that this is the thread for it but whatever. First off I think we can all agree that in commander repeatable card draw effects are much better than one time uses. Second, whenever I put a card in one of my decks I look at the card's ceiling and the card's floor, that is, the best possible effect and the worst possible effect the card could have. Now for Read the Bones the best and worse possible effects are the same, you scry two, draw two, and lose 2. The worst possible effect for Phyrexian Arena is that you play it, and someone destroys it before your next turn. Even if it gets destroyed your opponents have to spend a card to do so, but granted Phyrexian Arena 's floor is lower than Read the Bones . However, anything other than the worst possible scenario is just value for you. The ceiling for Phyrexian Arena is unbelievably higher than Read the Bones . Turn 3 play Phyrexian Arena , and by turn 11 you've draw 11 cards.
this floor/ceiling approach is also why I almost always play Damnable Pact over Read the Bones , It just has so much more potential, plus it can be used to kill people by putting their life to 0 or milling them.
March 28, 2019 1:50 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #12
You have two serious fallacies in there, and 2 minor ones, of which one I think is just a typo:
"Turn 3 play Phyrexian Arena , and by turn 11 you've draw 11 cards."
You'd only draw 7. Losing 7, waiting 7 turns for that payoff. Not 11.
Onto the more pressing matters:
"First off I think we can all agree that in commander repeatable card draw effects are much better than one time uses."
No. I can't agree to that. Well of Discovery isn't much better than Ancestral Recall , despite Well's ceiling being drawing 30+ cards.
You have to evaluate cards on their powerlevel, not say "We can all agree" to some B.S.
Now, there is no reason for a deck to run Arena unless it runs every single card in the linked page by cdkime so graciously beforehand.
Now, onto the next big issue:
"The worst possible effect for Phyrexian Arena is that you play it, and someone destroys it before your next turn."
No, this is false. Worst case scenario is as follows:
It is now a 1v1. You are in topdeck mode, with ~20ish life and little board state, against some insanely strong (power/toughness) creatures. You have Damnation in deck, tons of useless mana on field, and hope to topdeck it. You are super dead on board and it is the only out.
You draw Phyrexian Arena . You play it, pass, and lose.
Now, imagine if you had Read the Bones instead. You scry 2, maybe you hit it, if you don't, then you draw. Immediate value when you need it.
You lost because of Arena. You would've won with RtB. Or Night's Whisper , or Necropotence with an instant speed sweeper, or Sign in Blood , or even your Damnable Pact . You lost with Arena.
That is the floor.
March 28, 2019 2:02 p.m.
marco-piatti says... #13
Since we are talking about systems to draw more, i've found a copy of Bident of Thassa , do you think that card could be ok??
March 28, 2019 2:04 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #14
Bident is sweet!
What's the creature count and average mana cost of the creatures?
March 28, 2019 2:06 p.m.
marco-piatti says... #15
Well in my zombie deck the majority of creatures are between 1-3 drops.. some 4 drops and a couple of 5-6 drops. And i run 31 creatures at the moment.. 37 lands, 8 artifacts for mana ramp and the rest are sorceries and instants or enchantments.
March 28, 2019 2:11 p.m.
marco-piatti says... #16
However reading your discussion about Phyrexian Arena i've realized that probably i am a bad "black" player because i'm not good at Handling life points as a resource.. i don't wanna create another topic but what would you advise me to improve in that aspect of the game? Apart from changing deck and using white cards :)
March 28, 2019 2:31 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #17
Hey, SynergyBuild, hate to butt in on a fight that isn't mine but you seem to be utilizing some fallacies yourself, but of a different sort than you accused AkrosTheClear of using; namely the Strawman Fallacy.
I'm specifically talking about your Well of Discovery vs. Ancestral Recall analogy. You used the most broken draw spell in Magic history and compared it to a six-mana artifact that triggers once on your turn.
A more accurate analogy would be Ancestral Recall vs. Rhystic Study - a much closer matchup which, in my opinion, Rhystic wins.
And as to your deal with Phyrexian Arena , I agree that it would be ridiculous to run it in a 1v1 deck. But commander is typically not a 1v1 format. I think that if you're casting Arena after turn 5, burst draw would have been better. But cast on turn 3, you're drawing probably 4-8 cards with this boy. That's value, imo.
March 28, 2019 2:46 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #18
Then Bident and Coastal Piracy would be sweet inclusions!
Also, spend life until you are at 1. It is the easiest way to explain it. It isn't always true, but will get you there with cards like Night's Whisper or Necropotence 85ish% of the time.
I didn't use a strawman fallacy. I was told repeatable draw, of which well is, is better than single-draw, of which recall is.
That isn't a fallacy, it is called taking extremes, an argument tool by ancient greek philosophers.
I can see the issue. Also, Brainstorm sees cEDH play everywhere, nearly always a worse Ancestral Recall by a lot, Rhystic Study sees play in maybe 1-2 stax lists that have blue in them.
Not even a fair fight with RS. Mystic Remora or Necropotence ? Then we can have an argument over which would be more powerful, however Recall would still win.
Read the other alternatives. Am I saying Arena can't be good? No. A 10 mana 10/10 with no abilities can win many games, that doesn't make it a good card when there are better alternatives. Opt is fine, but Brainstorm is a lot better. The same is true for Arena. It is a worse Dark Confidant in competitive games, it is a worse Rhystic Study in casual, it is a worse Necropotence is both, and it is worse than Read the Bones , Night's Whisper , and plenty more draw spells in a multitude of casual and competitive games alike.
March 28, 2019 2:55 p.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #19
The answers to your questions vary more based on your deck than they do based on your meta.
If you are playing a control deck, 8ish counterspells is usually sufficient (providing you've got plenty of card draw to make sure they show it). I usually go for some selection of Disdainful Stroke , Arcane Denial , Counterspell , Negate , Essence Scatter , Dissolve , Sinister Sabotage , Swan Song , Commit / Memory and if you can afford them Pact of Negation , Mystic Confluence , Cryptic Command and Mana Drain . Important to remember that Cryptic is not as good in commander as it is in 60-card formats, and Force of Will is mediocre at best. If you are NOT playing control, don't play counters.
Board wipes, if you are playing a heavy creature based aggressive deck, should be zero. If you are playing control, three-four. If you're playing superfriends, 8-9. At least two of Wrath of God , Day of Judgment , Supreme Verdict and Damnation should always be the first ones you put in, followed by Merciless Eviction , Blasphemous Act , and Austere Command then some selection of Cyclonic Rift , Evacuation , AEtherize , Settle the Wreckage , Fumigate , Kaya's Wrath , Chain Reaction , Akroma's Vengeance , Terminus , In Garruk's Wake , Necromantic Selection , All Is Dust and Kindred Dominance . Prioritize your picks to 1) be cheap so you aren't restricted from casting them and 2) be flexible - Merciless Eviction and Austere Command should be high pirority picks, and things that bounce/tuck/sacrifice are good for indestructibility.
As for spot removal... play little to none. Unless your deck focuses on it, it's fairly weak. I'd run things like Hero's Downfall / Vraska's Contempt / Beast Within / Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile because they are cheap, flexible, and can deal with hard-to-answer permanents, but I wouldn't typically run more than two-three in a deck. The exception, of course, is right here: Shameless self promotion.
Remember that you're playing in multiplayer pods. If you spend one card to answer an opponent's one card, you're down by the two cards your other two opponents didn't have to spend. That makes both spot removal and counterspells much worse than usual. Board wipes are by far preferable to both options.
March 28, 2019 3:28 p.m.
marco-piatti says... #20
PhotogenicParasympathetic Thanks for your help! My deck has a lot of graveyard interaction so i can still recover some of the creatures destroyed, especially with Rise of the Dark Realms .
March 28, 2019 3:46 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #21
Strawman fallacies are a form of argument based on a misrepresentation of the opposing argument. Nobody said that Well of Discovery was better than Ancestral Recall . What Akros said was that consistent draw was typically better than burst. You are the one who chose to use a strictly worse version of Staff of Nin , also a bad card, as the poster-child of consistent draw. I have been playing EDH for five years and had never even heard of Well of Discovery until now. It's literal jank.
It's like me saying "so you're saying Accumulated Knowledge is better than Necropotence , then?"
Now, I don't know why I bothered arguing that anyway, since Recall is banned, and your argument was therefore ridiculous anyway. But I did and it's over now. Onto your next point.
Yes, Phyrexian Arena has nothing on Rhystic Study . But it's in black. Sometimes you're running and you just gotta use draw spells that aren't the best draw spells in the game. Given the available options outside of blue, I'd say Arena fits well enough in those decks.
March 28, 2019 4:25 p.m.
marco-piatti says... #23
Since planeswalkers are often used in many decks (sometimes as commander) what about The Immortal Sun ?
March 28, 2019 7:15 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #24
ZendikariWol mind finding that 'typically' for me? I read:
"First off I think we can all agree that in commander repeatable card draw effects are much better than one time uses."
Was this not what was written? Was it out of context?
Dude. Stop it. I never said that repeatable or immediate effects are better, so don't go acting like I did.
I also mentioned Necropotence , Dark Confidant , Night's Whisper , Read the Bones , etc. in that post, so just because Rhystic Study isn't black doesn't invalidate my argument. Arena is trash. You are just rehashing the post we already linked. Argue it there.
March 28, 2019 7:22 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #25
Okay. Sorry for all of this, chat. This is the internet. Things get heated. Time for us to drop this- no one is getting anywhere anyway. I’m not convincing you, nor you me.
Have a nice day, SynergyBuild, big aplogies to the rest of this thread for having to listen to the two of us bicker.
March 28, 2019 7:58 p.m.
AkrosTheClear says... #26
the fact of the matter us that Phyrexian Arena is a commander staple, whether people think that it should be or shouldn't be doesn't change the fact that it is the second most popular enchantment in commander according to edhrec. So for the question of card draw Phyrexian Arena is the answer many people turn to.
March 29, 2019 12:05 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #27
Why do you keep talking about it here. I have repeatedly told you to talk on the linked discussion page:
Just stop here, you keep not going to the proper channel for dicussion.
March 29, 2019 8:34 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #28
Don't bring me into this, SynergyBuild, I've washed my hands of this. I'm just assuming you didn't bother to read my last comment.
March 29, 2019 8:36 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #29
I did. However you said "big aplogies [Err] to the rest of this thread for having to listen to the two of us bicker."
Despite me repeatedly asking you to use the link listed, you kept writing here. You clearly aren't sorry.
smackjack says... #2
1) I run 4-8 boardwipes in my decks. Its meta dependent i guess, in my current meta i lean towards 8 boardwipes as its very creature based
2) It depends on your meta. My meta has lots of creature based decks, with only one spell based (Mizzix) deck. I only run Counterspell and Negate because removal is better in my meta.
3) You should always have lots of card advantage, no matter what deck you play. I always use Consecrated Sphinx in my blue decks and Mind's Eye in my non blue decks. Both these cards are a draw engine by themselves. I would recommend at least 5 cards that lets you draw more cards during the entire game (not one time draws like Brainstorm ).
March 28, 2019 5:57 a.m.