Kothophed, Card Hoarder
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on June 26, 2015, 9 p.m. by NotaNetDeck
So, Origins spoilers are in the air and there's a new legendary black demon on the block. Seems like he'll make a pretty good general too... he's a 6/6 for 4BB and he flies. Oh, and whenever a permanent owned by another player is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you draw a card and lose 1 life.
Personally, I hate Erebos, God of the Dead. 2 mana and life for a card is a crappy deal even in EDH, not to mention an initial investment of 4 mana. Kothophed is everything Erebos tried to be: bigger and better at drawing.
Now on to actual card suggestions. As long as you're not spending a card killing a card, he's card advantage city. Fleshbag Marauder, Grave Pact and Harvester of Souls are definitely in order, and most other stuff you guys can think of. LD is also an option >:) One final thing I noticed: his text says owned by another player, not controlled. Black's not big on stealing, but if you pull some mass reanimating/stealing sh*t and have a sac engine, you'll probably draw a little, too. Also, your general is an evasive black demon, so Hatred.
Enjoy the thread guys! Kothophed, Soul Hoarder EDH is looking pretty good... :)
wakawakawaka says... #3
part of what makes erebos good is that he shuts down generals like oloro and trostani and he's a 5 power indestructible guy that costs 4. he also makes it so that you don't topdeck.
I personally like erebos if you couldn't tell :p
but with that said my mind is swimming with possiblities w/ kothoped in maybe a red/black edh deck... Insurrection + Tempt with Vengeance + Ashnod's Altar + kothoped... timmygasm
June 26, 2015 9:09 p.m.
Yeah, he's definitely high reward. The issue is the high risk involved. Ultimately, I think it depends a fair bit on your local meta. If your playgroup has enough mill involved for example, could be an issue.
June 26, 2015 9:11 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #5
I can respect arguments for Erebos, but that's not the topic of this thread, so let's not debate it.
wakawakawaka, who would you choose as the general for that B/R deck? I have a fat Grenzo, Dungeon Warden deck sitting around and might consider changing it a bit...
June 26, 2015 9:12 p.m.
jandrobard says... #6
Venser's Journal, Insidious Dreams and Sickening Dreams seem like good additions. Commander damage win with lots of backup control or death triggers+discard+reanimate both seem buildable.
June 26, 2015 9:17 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #7
Also saldagmac, I'd personally be a lot more concerned about life loss than mill. Given there's no graveyard-exiling effect online, mill can be completely hosed by a single copy of Kozilek or Ulamog. Overdrawing has its negative effects for sure, but in my experience of EDH it'll nearly always just win you the game.
June 26, 2015 9:19 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #8
jandrobard, Venser's Journal is a great idea and reminds me of everyone's favorite degenerate card for monoblack EDH: Necropotence! There are probably tons of viable builds, but are you guys leaning one way or another?
June 26, 2015 9:22 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #9
I like Kothophed, but I see him more as a tool for other commanders than a commander himself. I know my Savra, Queen of the Golgari and Oloro, Ageless Ascetic decks are looking forward to him. But as a commander, he runs the risk of doing a lot of damage to you. Oloro might drop a board wipe, grab a bunch of cards, and regen the life over the next few turns, and Savra can balance her sacrifices to keep herself alive. But on his own... You could hit a situation where your commander becomes unplayable because you don't have the life or cards to survive a board wipe, and I'd much rather be running Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief or Sidisi, Undead Vizier with Kothophed in the 99.
Also, he's super susceptible to token strategies like Marath, Will of the Wild or Ghave, Guru of Spores, because once the tokens hit, his ability makes board wiping deadly.
June 26, 2015 9:29 p.m.
jandrobard says... #10
Kopothep EDH would probably also run cards like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Deathgreeter. Exquisite Blood, and Exsanguinate to offset the life loss. Defense against mill could be Elixir of Immortality, Feldon's Cane, and Witchbane Orb.
June 26, 2015 9:38 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #11
I could see Kothophed EDH looking like suicide black in EDH form. Don't get me wrong; the life and overdrawing are risks to his play, but an efficient, well-curved variant could justify the risk to yourself. He would be a great inclusion in Oloro, though.
As a general himself, his life loss could be offset by something as simple as Blood Artist. The nature of black is to win at any cost, and this is a concept I see Kothophed embodying. He may ultimately be risky, but I'm willing to bet that if you have a low life total stemming from draw, chances are you're in an absurd enough position from all those cards that victory is easily attainable.
June 26, 2015 9:54 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #12
jandrobard, I agree. Helldozer, Royal Assassin, and Visara the Dreadful would be strong enablers.
June 26, 2015 9:59 p.m.
jandrobard says... #13
Forbidden Orchard and/or Hidden Horror toss out tokens to be killed, fueling more draw. MonoB has a decent ramp suite with a little tutoring, so casting him isn't really a concern.
June 26, 2015 10:10 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #14
At this rate we'll be ready with a list before Origins is even released! Ramping up to Possessed Portal after drawing with and killing Kothophed might be a terrible idea but could also be very powerful.
June 26, 2015 10:17 p.m.
wakawakawaka says... #15
I'd choose Thraximundar, Shattergang Brothers, Oros, the Avenger, Kaalia of the Vast, or Malfegor, all of which synergize with kothoped.
June 26, 2015 10:38 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #18
I was speaking figuratively and we're not allowed to post them here, CheeseBro. It'd pretty much be a suicide monoblack deck with most EDH staples (especially wraths) within color identity. Phyrexian Obliterator would also be a good addition.
wakawakawaka, those generals are all great ideas! I've never seen a Shattergang Bros deck but that'd be the one (other than Kothophed himself) I'd be most likely to build.
June 26, 2015 10:52 p.m.
wakawakawaka says... #19
8-)))
kothoped himself would make a pretty interesting general too. shattergang and malfegor seem like the coolest commanders to run kothoped but kothoped's probably good in any black based edh deck, whether he's the commander or just a card in the deck.
if we're talking about a deck where kothoped's the commander, like someone mentioned before Venser's Journal would be great. In Garruk's Wake, Dread, Psychosis Crawler, Anvil of Bogardan + eldrazi (ulamog comes to mind), and Hex might also be good.
Helm of Possession + a sac outlet would be nice too if you have enough sac fodder.
June 26, 2015 11:52 p.m.
NotaNetDeck I intend to use this guy in my Marchesa, the Black Rose deck. Usually when I'm playing a multi-player game, I find myself on the throne and can't get my counters.
June 27, 2015 12:14 a.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #21
Malfegor after some Kothophed shenanigans reminds me of the neat suggestion of Insidious Dreams earlier.
Marchesa is a very cool general, too. She and Kothophed are both great with wraths, and even improve with each other.
One dilemma I'm starting to see with Kothophed as the general is the lack of access to the color pie, which in turn limits your mass destruction spells. Not counting cards like Oblivion Stone and Nevinyrral's Disk (both great choices for Kothophed EDH), the confines of the color pie mean you'll only be killing creatures, lands, and planeswalkers for draw triggers. This might be a good thing, on the other hand, because it limits your life loss. Otherwise, monoblack is powerful in EDH, but you'll still probably lose to Rest in Peace + Web of Inertia , though.
June 27, 2015 12:53 a.m.
wakawakawaka says... #22
psychosis crawler/exsanguinate can kill the lockdown player I guess.
Unstable Obelisk is pretty decent in mono black edh too.
June 27, 2015 3:25 a.m.
hyperlocke says... #23
Oh man, I can't wait to put Kothoped in my Shattergang Brothers EDH...
June 27, 2015 7:34 a.m.
Kothoped, Hoarder of Souls seems really good. But there are several decks that would kill the controller of this card in a turn due to reanimating effects and other similar effects. But with a single Platinum Emperion he becomes insane. At that point you just need a way to sac him when needed so you dont mill your self out. He seems really good in Kaalia of the Vast.
June 27, 2015 12:39 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #26
wakawakawaka, that was one of my first ideas, but unfortunately black has nothing like that. But the problem with land wrathing would be you can't cast any of the cards you just drew.
Jeggard, I forgot about that card. The only problem there would be you need to spend over 12BB just for those cards to do anything. It's out of color but Horizon Chimera along with several aforementioned cards will offset the life loss.
June 27, 2015 9:11 p.m.
NotaNetDeck mono black has TONS of ramp and EDH is all about the ramp PLUS the tutors in black are insane comparatively. But yes i do agree that its expensive mana wise and their are other options, my point is its not super difficult to do.
June 27, 2015 9:35 p.m.
wakawakawaka says... #28
I was talking about kothoped in something like kaalia.
June 27, 2015 11:37 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #29
Mass LD might even draw a concession, which makes sense because with a billion cards and powerful fatties (and no lands), you're almost guaranteed to win.
Consistently handling the risky aspect of Kothophed is something I don't feel we've fixed -- tutors are probably the best choice instead of a bunch of variants of Deathgreeter. The downside to using tutors is that it's taking the easy way out: they linearize play and take some of the challenge out of deckbuilding by increasing reliability. If you're playing to win though, run them for sure.
June 28, 2015 12:47 a.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #31
Do you guys think this would be good in a W/B suicide combo deck? I'm not sure how much destruction that deck would run.
June 28, 2015 7:28 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #32
Just got a cool idea! Almost all the mass destruction you'll be doing will happen on your turn, and before the life loss/card draw becomes excessive, you can activate Sundial of the Infinite to prevent it from happening!
June 28, 2015 8:25 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #34
Thanks. It'll probably turn out that life gainers like Deathgreeter are better to see in hand, but Sundial is a pet card of mine that does a lot of silly things. Also, if we combine Kothophed with Sundial, Mimic Vat deserves a mention.
June 29, 2015 1:21 a.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #35
Also, flavor side note: Kothophed, Soul Hoarder is the demon pictured perving at Lili in some versions of Demonic Tutor.
June 30, 2015 7:08 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #37
Well, I mentioned a Kothophed EDH list earlier and I've been putting one together since, and although I'm neither finished not allowed to post the list here, I've come to a couple conclusions: attaining 6 mana is difficult, because monoblack's best ramp costs a bunch of mana (see Nirkana Revenant/Caged Sun) and triggering Kothophed's effect is much harder than I thought (making overdrawing/life loss more manageable). This is because you want to cast destructive spells before you get to 6 mana. This makes delayed cards like suspend gold (i.e. Phthisis and Curse of the Cabal). That's all for now, but I'll have a list soon on my profile.
July 1, 2015 3:11 a.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #38
What strong, repeatable spot removal do you guys think would go well with Kothophed?
July 5, 2015 3:25 a.m.
jandrobard says... #39
NotaNetDeck Pestilence, Demon of Wailing Agonies, Reaper from the Abyss, Avatar of Woe, Spine of Ish Sah, and Gate to Phyrexia are all options.
July 5, 2015 1:31 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #40
Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet, The Abyss, Magus of the Abyss, Reaper from the Abyss, and Visara the Dreadful were ones I found with a quick gatherer search.
July 5, 2015 2:12 p.m. Edited.
NotaNetDeck says... #42
Well, I posted a list which is accessible from my profile (I don't want to break the rules by posting a link here). Thanks so much everyone for your contributions, and I hope you like my take on the deck!
July 5, 2015 8:17 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #43
I'm happy with the first list, but I also would LOVE to explore a reanimator variant with Koth at the helm!!
So far I've thought of Entomb, Buried Alive, Animate Dead, (and pretty much the rest of the Graveborn deck), Liliana Vess, Rise of the Dark Realms, Fated Return, Necromancy, Rise of the Dark Realms, Coffin Queen, and Necromantic Selection (possibly the cleverest-named card I know).
What ideas do you guys have?
The hunt is back on! :)
July 7, 2015 7:28 p.m.
jandrobard says... #44
Sheoldred, Whispering One, Puppeteer Clique, Animate Dead, Diabolic Servitude, Reanimate, Living Death, Balthor the Defiled, Chainer, Dementia Master, Corpse Connoisseur, Stitch Together, Mindslicer, Zombie Infestation...
As for reanimation targets, I'm mostly stumped. Rune-Scarred Demon and Kokusho, the Evening Star, but what else?
July 7, 2015 8:31 p.m.
jandrobard says... #46
ThisIsBullshit mentioned Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet, that could be another one.
July 7, 2015 8:37 p.m.
jandrobard says... #48
Lim-Dul the Necromancer could work too.
And wakawakawaka wut?
July 7, 2015 8:40 p.m.
NotaNetDeck says... #49
My guess is Cacodemon was misread or not meant to be a reanimator target.
It That Betrays o_0
July 7, 2015 8:47 p.m.
jandrobard says... #50
NotaNetDeck actually, judging by the ":D" at the end of the comment, it was a joke. I may be really off though, as internet social cues are not my strong point.
saldagmac says... #2
yikes. kothoped is scary risky, because there's no may clause. You boardwipe, and risk milling yourself out. It's risky. Could definitely work, but risky as hell. Also 2 mana+2life for a card on an activated ability's actually quite good, even in EDH....
June 26, 2015 9:08 p.m.