Help me foolproof this infinite combo. It has some "holes."

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on July 12, 2020, 9:44 p.m. by StopShot

Today's infinite combo is in mono-red, but card suggestions outside of red are welcome. The combo:

Cards: Seasoned Pyromancer + Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle

TL;DR

The point of this thread: is to come up with card suggestions to add to the 99 of this theoretical deck that will help guarantee this combo will win the game. The problems this combo faces are outlined in the sections Hole A, Hole B and Hole C. Suggestions for combating any one of these three holes is greatly appreciated.


Potential pay-offs of this combo.

How this combo works: To start you just need to have all three cards listed on the battlefield. So long as the Seasoned Pyromancer creates at least one token you'll be able to sacrifice both the token and the pyromancer to Ashnod's Altar to generate mana which you can recur with Nim Deathmantle. This means theoretically you have created infinite draw/filtering, infinite 1/1 tokens for every time you discard two nonland cards and infinite colorless mana off those infinite tokens. Of course however, there are certain holes in this strategy that hinder it.


Hole A

Hole A of this combo: Whenever a deck comes up with infinite draw, it should be noted that it is never truly infinite card draw unless you can refill your library an endless number of times. Otherwise drawing too many cards when you don't have a library can result in losing the game. Since our token generation and mana generation are both directly tied to the number of times we can draw/filter cards that means our token and mana production is just as limited unless we can solve the infinite draw issue. This is what I'd refer to as Hole A.

Solutions and Problems to Hole A: One possible solution to regenerate one's library is to run either Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. Given the last ability of either one, if either titan ends up in the graveyard they will simply reshuffle our graveyard back into our library, and given our combo is always discarding cards this task should be easy. BUT it's not a perfect solution. Suppose in the following scenario we reshuffle our library and the following two statements happen to be true: (1) The Eldrazi titan is positioned as one of the bottom three cards in our library and (2) our library has an odd number of cards in it. If you were to continuously filter cards under this situation there would be no possible way to discard the Eldrazi titan without completely drawing out from your deck and losing the game as a consequence. This is also true if our library has an even number of cards in it and the Eldrazi titan makes up one of the two bottom cards of our library. You would need some extra card to fix this problem or else the combo would be limited to either noted event occurring.

Possibly a better solution than running the Elderazi titans would be to run Elixir of Immortality instead. Given we don't need to discard the Elixir to use its effects and our combo can generate excess colorless mana after each loop it should be feasible to cast and activate the Elixir so long as our library has more nonland cards in it than land cards. This solution isn't perfect either but it's better than using the Eldrazi titans. In the event our library has an even number of cards in it we'll always be able to draw into the Elixir of Immortality regardless of where its located in our deck. However the same can't be said if our library has an odd number of cards. In the event our library has an odd number of cards, if the Elixir happens to be at the very bottom of our deck, the last card, there would be no way to draw the elixir using our combo without over-drawing from our library. That means there is still a hole in this strategy, albeit a smaller one, but the question still remains; is there a better card for the job?


Hole B

Hole B of this combo: Just like Hole A, Hole B is another chance phenomenon that can derail our ability to continue the combo. Let's say under the given scenario our library currently has more nonland cards in it than land cards and we have 2 nonland cards and 2 land cards in hand when we start the combo. (Theoretically producing the tokens needed to continuously draw cards should be possible, but let's continue on with this scenario.) As we cycle through 2 cards at a time let's pretend that each consecutive two cards we draw is a land and a nonland together. This by itself would be enough just to keep the combo going, but then the unthinkable happens. We suddenly hit a massive land block in our deck, let's say the next 10 consecutive cards are all lands (despite how rare that chance may be). At this point we'd be at a deficit of negative mana per cycle just to dredge through each of these lands in order so that we can get to all the nonland cards beyond it. More than not, this scenario would be where our combo falls short due to this rare chance ordering of lands. This is Hole B of our combo.

Solutions and Problems to Hole B: When tackling the Hole B scenario, let's pretend we already have the perfect solution to Hole A that allows us to constantly shuffle cards in our graveyard back to our hand without fail. This is primarily to focus on the Hole B dilemma. One fact to keep in mind is given most decks tend to have more nonland cards than land cards it should be a given that with each deck shuffle we should end up with more tokens than before and thus more disposable mana to bypass any land blocks that may occur later on in the combo. So a given fact here is the later in the combo we go the less problematic Hole B starts to become. It's only before the first or second reshuffle that Hole B has the greatest potential to derail this combo.

One solution to Hole B is to use Shenanigans. Because of how dredge works we can always choose to have one of our cards be the dredged card. In this scenario we have guaranteed that one of the cards drawn or in this case dredged will always be a nonland card meaning our only outcomes from here on out will always be land + Shenanigans OR nonland + Shenanigans meaning there's no chance to lose value and always a chance to gain value. While this may seem like a perfect solution this problem it runs in direct contrast with our dilemma in Hole A. If we're using Elixir of Immortality as our card cycler of choice there's always the possibility we could accidentally dredge the Elixir into or graveyard by mistake and thus losing our ability to cycle our graveyard back into the library. While we wouldn't need to worry about dredging the Eldrazi titans away by mistake, that would mean we'd have to use a less effective Hole A solution in order to combat the problem that is Hole B. It should also be noted that since Shenanigans has Dredge 1 it won't be able to change our library from having and even number of cards to an odd number of cards and vice versa. In order to change the even or oddness of a library you'd need to use an off-color dredge card with an even dredge number to change the state of your library's even/odd card count. So is dredge the right solution to Hole B or is there another alternative that could work in its place?


Hole C

Hole C of this combo: Lastly yet most importantly, we need an actual way to win with this combo. While infinite card draw, infinite tokens and infinite colorless mana are really powerful, together they are not enough to win you the game right away. For that we'd need to have yet another card in our library dedicated to abusing any one of these qualities to win us the game on the spot. While this may be the easiest hole to fill in the question ultimately sits at; what is the best solution to Hole C?

I've come up with three win conditions that work, but if you know of one better I'd like to hear what wincon you'd prefer best. The three cards that come to my mind are Anger, Walking Ballista and Blasting Station. Anger would be an easy card to dump into the graveyard which would be what we could give our massive token army haste to win the game. This strategy can bypass annoying cards like Leyline of Sanctity and Propaganda as we can easily pay the price with our infinite colorless mana, but cards such as Crawlspace or Spore Frog could easily stop this win condition. If we use Walking Ballista or Blasting Station we'd have the mana to cast either and all the tokens needed to be sac'd for either to deal lethal damage, but both these win condition cards would easily be beaten if our opponents have a Leyline of Sanctity or a Dissipate. So, what is the best win condition for an infinite combo like this one?

SynergyBuild says... #2

While the combo works, I don't believe it needs any separate pieces that only work for it, like the Eldrazi.

Scenario: You rummage through your deck and make ~14 colorless mana. If you can't win from here, you have an issue, Rings of Brighthearth, Basalt Monolith and Walking Ballista alone give you the win from just 8 mana. That's 3 cards you need to rummage to, and 4 tokens extra to win. Why make it more difficult?

July 12, 2020 10:22 p.m. Edited.

Unlife says... #3

If you're already making tokens, something like Impact Tremors/Purphoros, God of the Forge would help. If you splash blue you'd get Thassa's Oracle/Laboratory Maniac

July 12, 2020 10:58 p.m.

Yeah, I'm with SynergyBuild. This doesn't have to be the combo that wins, it can just be the combo that finds the combo that wins.

If you really want to stick to it, though, I'd advise:

A) Run both Eldrazi titans. The odds of both being in the bottom three cards is astronomically low.

B) Run cards like Skirge Familiar, Bone Miser, Surly Badgersaur etc, that can either turn excess lands into mana.

C) All of the above finishers. There's no reason to limit yourself to just one - heck, throw an Altar of the Brood in too just to have another way out in case of infinite lifegain.

July 12, 2020 11:03 p.m.

Metachemist says... #5

Hole A could also be filled by replacing the pyromancer with a Myr Battlesphere

If I am reading this correctly, I believe this also fills the Hole B issue as well.

Then to fill Hole C with win-cons, we could also use Impact Tremors Purphoros, God of the Forge Fervor

July 12, 2020 11:08 p.m.

StopShot says... #6

@SynergyBuild, While that can work it's not a 100% guarantee which bothers me. Check my analysis on Hole B. While I know running into a land block is highly unlikely, trying to spend excess mana on your first go around means even a smaller land block in your library can foil you entirely. The only solution I could think of to bypass the Hole B issue is to run dredge cards, but dredge would make it easier to mill away the combo pieces you need to cast unless you have a grave shuffle effect. If you have a different solution to the Hole B dilemma your strategy would completely remove the need for a grave shuffler entirely.

Also keep in mind when you cast cards from hand the total number of cards in your hand decreases which means you have less cards to fall back on when you start running into more lands. While it may cost a total of 8 mana to cast those cards normally, having one less nonland card to discard is like losing an additional mana per card cast. For example if the number of cards in my hand is two and I discard those cards to draw a Basalt Monolith and a land its going to cost me mana to play that monolith as I'll have no tokens to sac after the next discard trigger.

July 12, 2020 11:12 p.m.

enpc says... #7

Inside of mono-red, I would lean more towards Siege-Gang Commander over Seasoned Pyromancer. Then all you need to add to the combo is a way to convert colourless mana to red mana (or a sac-for-red altar) and you have the deck win condition built in.

July 12, 2020 11:45 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #8

StopShot You are under the assumption you don't have a hand prior to comboing nor have any extra mana, I think that's your issue. Sure, if you don't have a hand, have 0 extra mana to account for variance, and then are hitting massive land blocks things go bad. With anything else, you should be fine.

July 12, 2020 11:53 p.m.

A-Myr says... #9

Hole A: add Jace, Wielder of Mysteries and Laboratory Maniac. Also fixes Hole C.

Hole B: I don’t quite understand how that is a hole. Let’s say we start our combo. We get if we sacrifice all three things from ashnod’s altar, and we need to bring everything back. We only depend on the cards on the battlefield, and our draws shouldn’t affect anything.

You will also need Mycosynth Lattice and Chromatic Orrery is that you can cast colored spells with your colorless mana.

If you really want to win through the infinite draw cycle, I would use Glint-Horn Buccaneer.

July 13, 2020 12:39 p.m.

A-Myr says... #10

Never mind, I figured out hole B. I forgot the “nonland” part of the text.

July 13, 2020 12:41 p.m.

RambIe says... #11

I can vision this in jund

I would add card mechanics like
Call to the Netherworld, Shadow of the Grave, Garna, the Bloodflame, Creeping Renaissance to reload your hand
Liliana, Dreadhorde General, Erebos, Bleak-Hearted,Moldervine Reclamation,Fecundity, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King. to improve the draw

This could help you get past the lands.
plenty of ways in these colors to make this combo go lethal or as pointed out fetch win (IMO do both)

the true challenge is making it consistent
I hate to say it but tutor for a tutor Diabolic Revelation

I hope this is enough suggestions to get you started on your journey, Good luck

July 13, 2020 3:50 p.m.

RambIe says... #12

ugg how could i forget
Abundance would fix hole's A & B

July 13, 2020 4:50 p.m.

RambIe says... #13

Sorry for the spam but i keep thinking about this
with Abundance you can sac Garna, the Bloodflame and equip Nim Deathmantle to keep the combo going from the graveyard

July 13, 2020 5:32 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #14

Neat idea, but this combo is going to suffer in mono R for a few reasons

  • 3 piece combo in the color with the 2nd worst draw and the absolute worst tutoring
  • Combo costs to cast and to cast and to cast and then to trigger for a whopping , which gets discounted down to by having tokens make mana.
  • Combo is 3 permanents covering the most common type (creature) and second most common (artifact), and revolves around continually using the graveyard. Practically any interaction will stop this combo, as will any graveyard removal. Many hate/stax effects will end this combo too.
  • The pieces are of rather low individual quality. Seasoned Pyro is big value for 1v1 20 life formats but you aren't getting the insane value it normally gets. Ashnod's Altar is a combo enabler but does nothing by itself except maybe save your critters from getting exiled by saccing them instead. Nim Deathmantle is another combo engine that is going to be out of reach for the triggered ability most times you want to use it to casually save board pieces due to the exorbitant cost.
  • Seasoned Pyro can brick itself out mid combo with bad draws.
  • Combo that doesn't explicitly win requires even further deck slots for winning or even further slots for being 100% stable (and then it becomes a 4 card combo with Shenanigans). The 100% stability from Shenanigans only works when you see all 4 cards, which is extremely unlikely in mono Red, but still unlikely in whatever color combo you want to run this.

Even when executed 100% perfectly, there is no guarantee that your mana-expensive 3 card combo that doesn't explicitly win doesn't just brick out. If you absolutely must run it (which I don't recommend), run it alongside another explicit winning combo, preferably all colorless to cast like Monolith + Rings + Ballista. The other option is to run Phyrexian Altar to guarantee colored mana access (you filter into it after the combo starts), then running something like Zulaport Cutthroat or Impact Tremors to win.

July 13, 2020 6:33 p.m.

RambIe says... #15

thats alot of hate 0,o
+ discard two non-land cards is the total cmc including the activation.
It's not really that easy to stop, the timing and target has to be perfect, or else your spell is just going to get buried on the stack from triggers holding priority or your target is going to disappear
I admit its not the best combo but its new and its doable i give StopShot props for going off the beaten path
also at the risk of sounding arrogant i could easily build a deck around this and fire it off in a competitive setting.

July 13, 2020 7:50 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #16

Ramble

Evaluating the combo is not hating. This is a 3 card combo, expensive to cast, for a non-deterministic loop that isn't guaranteed to win.

You need to consider how the triggers go on the stack. The active player can't simply hold priority to ignore removal, because the ETB from Pyro is triggered and has to be resolved to progress the combo, and the death trigger from Deathmantle is also triggered and also has to resolve to progress the combo. Creature removal doesn't stop the combo, but static effects that impact creatures CAN stop the combo. Also relevant, artifact removal at any point in response to either of the triggered abilities that get stacked will stop the combo, because the triggered abilities have to resolve to continue the combo.

One thing I didn't tackle in my original post is how this combo is non-deterministic and can ruin your combo that way too. Any pyro/altar/mantle combo that uses ANY shuffling cards to reset the combo can and will hit a repeat game state, causing a slow play and having a Judge stop your combo. You will get a slow play if you repeat a game state. Most judges will define a game state as life totals, cards in hands, cards in graveyards, cards in library, and permanents on board. The second time you hit a shuffle effect (or rarely the first), you will repeat board states and be forced to move to your next phase, ending the combo. If you're able to find your method of damage/milling the table you might be able to change the board state before the second shuffle, but once again if you get unlucky with this expensive 3 card combo you're boned out of a win.

If you want to build a list to get smashed at your local cEDH table, be my guest. Maybe losing a shitload of games with this combo will convince you it is worse than other choices available, even for mono red.

July 14, 2020 1:21 a.m.

RambIe says... #17

dingusdingo before we continue
I would like to give you the opportunity to read the entire post including holes listed by StopShot & the suggestions that everyone made before you posted so that we don't have to debate a bunch of items that have already been addressed

That way we can just focus on why you feel it can't be pulled off.

P.S. evaluating would be weighing pro's and con's.

July 14, 2020 12:30 p.m.

RambIe says... #18

when your ready

your right static effects can stop pretty much any combo in the game including this one
and artifact removal stops the combo from resolving
but it can't just be done at any point in time or else they can just sack in response to your cast putting the combo on the stack above your spell.

as for slow play. how hard core is your lgs that judges are penalizing slowplay in an unranked tournament? or is more just some rando behind the counter telling you to pass the turn, but even then in my post just above yours this issue was already resolved.

as for me getting smashed at the cedh table with a deck like this, i've ranked 3rd out of 30+ in a lgs's "competitive" edh night using urdragon precon
a deck like this would be easier and i will tell you why
its not because the decks are amazing or i'm just to good of a player
its because 99% of competitive players suffer from a major leetest attitued
they fail to take a off meta deck seriously and they fail to see the threat non mainstream combo's like this posses so they also fail to stop it.

July 14, 2020 3:46 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #19

RambIe Just learned you apparently have an "I" and not an "L" in your name O_O

I have read this whole thread. My comments were 100% on-topic and highly relevant. Nothing I posted was already addressed. Everything I posted is why I feel the combo doesn't work.

I don't wish to debate the meaning of the word "evaluate" with you, so I will assure you that I used evaluate correctly. It can exist outside of making a pros/cons list. This is entirely semantics and not worth discussing further though.

I have already correctly identified the place to use removal during the combo, but I will repeat it again for your benefit. If you stack removal above either the ETB from the Pyromancer or in response to the Deathmantle trigger, you will stop the combo. As far as static effects, I'm not going to beat around the bush with you, but plenty of static effects that commonly see play shut this combo off entirely.

As far as slowplay, if you plan to play at any DCI sanctioned event you are liable to receive a slowplay warning. Especially as you talk about bringing this to a competitive event, you need to be aware that your opponents CAN call judge on you for this. Honestly though, you shouldn't run this combo in a kitchen table game for the exact same reason: it IS a non-deterministic loop that you can't specify how many exact times you wish to run it with a guaranteed outcome. This isn't some ultra crazy only competitive rule, its literally just a rule that always exists in MTG. As far as "Oh slowplay was already solved because Abundance", no lol. It wasn't, you're still liable to hit shuffler trigger twice and then get the repeat game state. You won't always receive a slowplay, but this is yet another way for this combo to brick out after getting assembled. On top of drawing into too many lands to brick out, you also have hitting repeat shuffler triggers before finding your outlet as a brick out.

Which brings us to competitive. I don't really care to mince words with you further, because 3rd out of 30 using a precon speaks to your "competitive edh night" being incredibly soft. Whatever your misgivings and hurt feelings about competitive, I am going to warn you once again that this combo will get absolutely shredded in a real competitive setting. Its not that you will never win with this deck, just that you'll be winning 10% of games where another combo would have led to winning 20% of your games. If you feel comfortable giving up 10+% of your wins to an unreliable combo, feel free.

July 16, 2020 5:34 p.m.

dingusdingo:

are you suggesting that an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite played at flash speed is something to be concerned about? Also, the whole point of this thread is to ask for help making this a viable combo, rather than saying "oh hey, I just made an amazing foolproof wincon, everybody look at me!", so you mentioning no ways to improve it besides practically just replacing it with another combo isn't the most helpful...

additionally, one of the explicitly mentioned "holes" in the strategy is already Leyline of the Void, no need to bring it up again without an answer to it.

cheers. -omniscience

July 16, 2020 5:55 p.m.

RambIe says... #21

@dingusdingo
"Just learned you apparently have an "I" and not an "L" in your name"
ya sorry about that, i explained it in great detail in a different thread but its not done to be misleading, i honest thought people would just copy paste my name but this happens alot, its not just you.

skipping what your skipping

i do not disagree that status effects stop this combo, status effects stop most combos that's why they see so much play. but that shouldn't stop you from trying instead you should plan for it and pack awnsers

as for slow play a very popular combo that's currently in cedh
Food Chain, Squee, the Immortal, &Korvold, Fae-Cursed King
this combo works by exiling squee 7 times then casting squee and the korvold sacking squee to the etb and drawing 1 card
then exile korvold exile squee 3 times sack etb draw 1 card
then exile korvold exile squee 5 times sack etb draw 1 card
then exile korvold exile squee 7 times sack etb draw 1 card
rinse repeat until they finally draw into a Walking Ballista
if that is widely considered except able play i don't see how this combo is any worse

i feel Abundance is an answer becouse
at first you are only going to draw non-land cards there fore you constantly evolving your bored state by building more tokens
second stage starts by reloading hand from graveyard to keep the token gen going and consistently drawing 2 lands. again library getting smaller board state growing larger with tokens.
third stage utilize its replacement effect, no library left, no card draw, no shuffle just reveal 0 and fail to find, continue to evolve the board state by looping gy

as for competitve edh play
i would not dismiss other players or there decks
commander has this grey area that the more consistent you evolve your deck the more susceptible you become to being shut down by a single card
if you watch command zone's m21 core set game you can witness a prime example of this
i have just become custom to playing in that zone and have gotten pretty good at exploiting the weakness in competitive decks
as for everything else about cedh i have to confess is just my person trolling i need to address. i have played for years watching knuckleheads buying net decks and playing standard & modern acting like there god's gift to magic by following a preset template and gaining 30-40 points per week as if its nothing. while i have sat at the edh table developing my own unique play styles and combos and lucky if i could pull off 4 points in a month.

the win's goto there head they think they are all power full and they truly believe that somehow they are superior. now cedh has become a thing and now i get to enjoy the net decks coming to my table trying to tell me how to play my decks to be like theirs. so i tend to over react a bit when i feel this mentality is being pushed on others.

July 16, 2020 6:51 p.m.

enpc says... #22

RambIe: The difference with the Korvold combo is that it's deterministic. Step 1 generates infinite mana with Squee and food chain. As per the MtG rules, you don't have to play out each of these loops, you can shortcut it because you know that for each Squee loop you will generate 1 extra mana. Therefore you can say "I want to run this loop X times and get X mana". Even the draw effect from sacing Krovold will guaranteed draw you a card. So again you can say "I cast Korvold and then sacrifice him to draw a card". This can be shortcut.

What dingusdingo is pointing out is that this can't be shortcut. Because getting a token is entirely dependent on what you discard (which fuels the loop), you must play the whole thing out. Interestingly enough, The Gitrog Monster decks also fall into this category.

I would recommend you have a look into the legacy four horsemen deck - this kind of set the precendence for non-deterministic decks and slow plays (The deck/nice recap of the deck).

July 16, 2020 8:19 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #23

@StopShot so, I've been thinking more about the combo.

While I have tested it, and still believe the rarity of that type of land block can be greatly minimized with the use of fetchlands and additionally a few other pieces always work well, I want to know what type of colors are we working with.

I think Tribute Mage and Trophy Mage if you move into blue really work well. You can even play Trophy Mage make a bit of mana, sacrifice the Mage, return it, get a Rings of Brighthearth, then get a Basalt Monolith after. This works similarly with Goblin Engineer and Imperial Recruiter. With alternate choices like Siege-Gang Commander or some other options, the deck can have some serious consistency.

Is it Mono-Red? In Boros+ this is a powerful combo that can work with Zirda, the Dawnwaker even!

July 16, 2020 8:34 p.m.

enpc says... #24

SynergyBuild: I don't think Zirda works here - Nim Deathmantle is a triggered ability (well, the part you care about at least) however Zirda only reduces the cost of activated abilities.

July 16, 2020 11:17 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #25

enpc I was just surprised the whole combo could be run with the hard-to-use companion (the equip cost counts!)

It means that hitting Basalt Monolith can be an easier win!

For the non-budget, Grim Monolith makes the combo super-easy!

July 17, 2020 12:01 a.m. Edited.

dingusdingo says... #26

Omniscience_is_life

Nowhere did I suggest you should be afraid of an Elesh Norn at instant speed. The cards I listed are all static effects that shut off the combo that are common in competitive and fringe competitive decks, and I listed them because they shut down the combo. These are cards that may already be on the table at the time you try to combo, and have the combo shut off as an available line of play.

I also suggested 3 cards in my initial post ITT, Zulaport Cutthroat, Impact Tremors, and Phyrexian Altar. Criticism is also valid in and of itself. We can spend all day talking about this combo until we're blue in the face, but a 3 card combo that bricks out at multiple points into a non-deterministic repeating loop has serious problems, especially when people in this very same thread are posting about assembling actual lists for this combo. Especially as this balloons from a 3 card combo to 4 or 5 cards, it begins to become way less likely any player will execute the combo in any of their games.

My post is also the first time that Leyline of the Void or graveyard removal in general is brought into the thread, the OP discusses Leyline of Sanctity which is a different type of effect, graveyard replacement versus hexproof. Feel free to control F or reread the thread as much as you need. Discussing the counters to a combo in a thread about a combo is helpful to anyone learning about the combo.

You're 0/3 there bud, please double check yourself before posting.

RambIe

Packing answers is an acceptable answer. It is worth noting which static effects hard stop the combo so you know what to look out for/counterspell.

So the reason that Squee + FC + Korvold is not a slow play is because you can give a number of times to loop and have an expected outcome without repeating any game states. You can say you sacrifice Squee to Food Chain and recast him 100 times to generate 100 mana. With Korvold in play, you can say explicitly how many times you sacrifice Squee to draw a card and draw through your deck. The game state is meaningfully different each time you loop. Each time you sacrifice Squee to Food Chain, you have generated 1 more mana than before, or drawing 1 more card into hand than before with Korvold in play. Now compare this to Pyro + Altar + Deathmantle. The tokens generated are based on the loop resolving. We don't know for sure how many tokens we will get. We don't know what the expected outcome of a loop performed is. As such, you aren't able to shortcut any part of the process. Korvold saying he makes 1000000 mana takes all of 5 seconds, but drawing your deck with Pyro combo will require 5 minutes. Not being able to shortcut coupled with high chance of hitting the same game state twice is what causes this to become a problem.

Abundance does solve the reliability of finding the correct non-land cards to keep the fires of the combo going. The reason it doesn't solve the non-deterministic problem is that you're still going to hit a repeat game state on a shuffle trigger. There needs to be a card that meaningfully advances the game state 100% guaranteed to happen before the first shuffle and each shuffle afterwards. There are tons of cards linked in this thread that can do the trick, most of them are the combo payoffs like Surly Badgersaur or Impact Tremors.

Sorry to hear you don't like proud netdecker players. There is a lot of elitism in the community, but also a lot of people who wish to see the strengths as well as the limitations of the available card choices.

P.S. you can use Library of Leng + Impact Tremors with this combo to loop for wins.

July 17, 2020 12:07 a.m.

dingusdingo I do appreciate you calling me out for my errors, but it's easier to digest when someone is speaking respectfully rather than passive-aggressively.

I will add (in hopes that this is a legitimate statement) that it isn't unheard of for competitive combos to require thought for every action, perhaps not infinite combos but lengthy ones nonetheless! If you are speaking of this deck being played in a competitive atmosphere, nobody is going to care if your combo takes forever, everyone's there to win, in whatever way one can.

in addendum: constructive criticism is of course valuable and needed, but my only qualms with the sort that you are providing are that (at least in your first post) they are recommending complete paradigm shifts rather than ways to make the cards at hand work together.

also (last thing here) I understand and respect you saying the combo would be difficult to pull off, but outright saying anyone who wants to employ a somewhat janky strat is going to just lose all of their games... is hurtful and untrue.

stay well all - Omniscience

July 17, 2020 12:36 a.m.

RambIe says... #28

@dingusdingo FFS Library of Leng yes this should have been one of the first cards to be suggested.



to quote myself "RambIe says...#11 I can vision this in jund
plenty of ways in these colors to make this combo go lethal or as pointed out fetch win (IMO do both)"

i really didnt want to do a card list for this
but jund is pacted with etb,death, enter/leave gy, discard, draw, sac triggers that could be used to win with this combo Glint-Horn Buccaneer for one example. the reason i dont want to make a list for this is becouse there are so many cards in these colors it could be its own topic

again on slow play with Abundance there is no shuffle, there is no repeat of the board state, you simply remove the library and stop drawing cards.

"Sorry to hear you don't like proud netdecker players"
thank you for that i needed a strong laugh this morning
i find them wildly entertaining its like watching a bunch of toddlers that have not learned to ride there bikes with out training wheels form a biker gang
The part that upsets me is the constant harassment, and belittling they do to others for not wanting to be like them

irl its easy to deal with. when they sit at the table and i see there commander i already know there deck, what combos there going after,how and when to stop it. they see my commander and they know nothing about my deck. as ive tested and proven with tapped out i can even reveal my entire deck and they still fail to understand how it works.
but online is a different story there is no way for me to open your eyes

July 17, 2020 8:13 a.m.

RambIe says... #29

Thinking about my own words i guess you havn't seen me play so i will make a final attempt explaining how i would actually fire this with Abundance

I would know my own deck so lets say I'm running my casual template of 30 lands, 25 creatures, 20 instants, 10 artifacts, 10 sorcery, and 5 enchantments

I would first look at my board state lets say i just have these 4 perms and idk 8 lands
I would then review my gy lets say i have 2 spells and 2 fetch lands
Then i would check my hand and lets say there is 3 spells
well i would know that i am running a 30/70 build
(70 - 4 battlefield, - 2 gy, - 3 hand, and -1 commander)
(30 - 8 battlefield, -2 gy) i would then know that i have 60 nonland cards and 20 land cards left in my deck

so step one i would play the combo out normally announcing non land as my replacement so that everyone could see how it works and give everyone a chance to respond
i would then announce that i am going to repeat this process 29 more times to create a total of 30 1/1 tokens
i would then reveal 58 non land cards through the deck, choose 3 to hand and discard 58 cards
at this point in time i would have a potential of 60 colorless mana and my choice of any 3 cards from my deck
my first choice would be to cast Shadow of the Grave
what happens next would depend on the deck but if that spell resolves i can promise its game

July 17, 2020 12:13 p.m.

StopShot says... #30

@SynergyBuild, Ah well I wanted to leave what kind of deck this would be open-ended so that if it couldn't fit well in my deck it may still serve someone else's deck better. What strikes me about this combo is you could play Ashnod's Altar for , Seasoned Pyromancer for and if you produce two tokens you can cast Nim Deathmantle practically for and still have enough resources to initiate the combo without any additional mana expenditures meaning the combo has the capability to be used with as little as mana total. I feel like this is really low to the ground and may find use in either Legacy (or Modern if Ashnod's Altar is ever printed into that format). Though I haven't played in the Legacy format so perhaps that remark is a bit of a stretch and I'm sure there's loads of reasons to doubt Ashnod's Altar will ever end up in Modern, but having this sort of open-ended conversation I think can serve a lot of good even if its for commander or a different format.

As for my deck I am running Alesha, Who Smiles at Death so . So that does happen to bar me from great suggestions such as Unlife's Thassa's Oracle/Laboratory Maniac suggestion or RambIe's Abundance suggestion. I do want to thank both for bringing everyone's attention to those cards. Also due to the constraints of my deck I want to not run creatures with power 3 or greater and I don't want to run cards with CMC 5 or greater (if I can help it). That said I do want to thank PhotogenicParasympathetic for their card suggestion of Bone Miser and RambIe's suggestion to use Garna, the Bloodflame. Even if these cards don't fit into the constraints of my deck it is wonderful that they were brought up as I feel they actually do the combo a lot of good if you can run them.

I believe the cards suggested that help me the most for my deck are RambIe's suggestion of Shadow of the Grave and most importantly dingusdingo's suggestion to use Library of Leng which I am absolutely kicking myself for, for not being able to think of it around the time I made this thread. Library of Leng as I see it practically answers holes A and B and is so incredibly cheap to cast on top of that. I'm kicking myself because before coming up with this combo I was trying to come up with a two card draw engine using the library as one of the pieces.

I also want to thank dingusdingo and enpc for better explaining how this combo is non-deterministic which better exemplifies why holes A and B are so important to fill. It's also why Library of Leng was such a critical card to be noted as it turns the combo from undeterministic to deterministic.

That all being said however Library of Leng well may bring up a very hazy rules interaction into question that I feel I must have to consult a judge on. If you go onto the Gatherer page for Library of Leng and check the card rulings below on that page it specifies: "Since the card goes directly to the library, the card is not revealed unless the spell or ability requiring the discard specifically says it is."

Because of this ruling the cards discarded aren't revealed, however Seasoned Pyromancer says you can only create tokens based on what cards were discarded. So would this interaction mean that I could discard two land cards, not reveal the fact they are two land cards due to Library of Leng's ruling and then claim the two cards I discarded were actually nonland cards just to produce the tokens? Obviously that scenario wouldn't work, but this begs the question how does this work? Remember the card ruling says the cards aren't revealed unless an effect specifically says to reveal the discarded card and no where does Seasoned Pyromancer say the discarded cards must be revealed because typically the contents of any player's graveyard is common knowledge to everyone. So this effect would only apply to cards such as Nephalia Academy, Noxious Vapors, Cabal Therapy, etc. where reveal is explicitly stated. But I might be wildly misinterpreting this effect as it could also be abusive with cards that have transmute or Seismic Assault where what you discard matters except the rulings for Library of Leng also states: "You can’t use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren’t effects." Transmute and Seismic Assault use the discarded card as a cost, but Seasoned Pyromancer doesn't so is this a blind spot in the rules?

But excluding what I just mentioned there Library of Leng is probably the best answer for countering Holes A and B so far, but it's still not a 100% perfect solution. There's always the risk of running into a massive land block before drawing into it and there's also the concern of if your deck has an odd number of cards, then if its the bottom card of your library you'd need some additional effect to draw into it as drawing two cards at a time would cause you to deck out and lose the game before you could even cast it. While I'm fully aware both effects are still very unlikely they do exist and that probability is a non-zero entity even if for it being very unlikely.

One card I'm already running in my deck that may help mitigate one of those issues however is Conjurer's Bauble which I can use to guarantee the bottom card of my library won't be the Library of Leng. And if I choose not to put a card on the bottom of my library, that can trip can be used to turn a library with an odd number of cards in it into a library with an even number of cards in it. It's also helpful in the event I mill either it or Elixir of Immortality into my graveyard whether by some dredge effect or through milling caused by an opponent from earlier in the game. I thought I'd bring everyone's attention to Conjurer's Bauble as the cheap cost and can trip makes it an accessory to this combo that won't be a dead draw in the event you don't have the combo out.

July 17, 2020 5:24 p.m.

StopShot says... #31

Well, since we have the arguably best solution to Hole A and Hole B, Library of Leng, all we need is the best solution to Hole C, the win condition. After some careful thought I believe the best win condition for this combo is Mortarpod. Here are my thoughts why.

When comboing off we want to spend as little excess mana as possible. The reason why is out of concern for Hole B. The more cards and mana we have to spend to complete the combo the more likelier any given land block in our deck can end our combo. What's convenient about Mortarpod is its completely colorless to cast so we don't have to find an extra colored mana to cast it unlike Impact Tremors or Laboratory Maniac and it produces a token we can sacrifice right away to Ashnod's Altar which means we get the mana back that we spent on it making it a to effectively cast unlike Walking Ballista or Blasting Station which would cost us and respectively.

With Library of Leng we can effectively cycle back two nonland cards from our library as many times we want granting us infinite tokens and thus infinite colorless mana as well. Mortarpod will simply do the rest. While Mortarpod as our win condition won't be able to bypass every problem our opponent's throw at it, I believe it is the easiest piece to set up and it can also remove all our opponent's creatures if we're unable to remove our opponents. I would run Walking Ballista as a back-up card for Hole C in the event we lose Mortarpod.

At this point I think I am satisfied with the solutions given for this combo.

July 17, 2020 9:13 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #32

Weirdly for Alesha, the deck can get a ton of free value from this combo outside of winning. Filling the yard, digging, Stoneforge Mystic, Imperial Recruiter, Recruiter of the Guard, Goblin Engineer, Goblin Welder, etc. Not to mention the black tutors that aren't on bodies that can be reanimated or Nim Deathmantled. Seems really strong!

@StopShot what's the name of the combo, Nim Altarmancer?

July 17, 2020 9:33 p.m. Edited.

StopShot says... #33

SynergyBuild, Mmm, I don't really name them unless something really catchy strikes me. Perhaps "Ashes to Ashes" because one card has Ashnod in it and the other is a pyromancer with the combo name alluding to death in namesake to the Nim Deathmantle.

But in all seriousness I think the Library of Leng is the all star of this combo given the delightful interaction it plays in it. Perhaps the combo name should have some allusion to death and literature. In a way though this all sort of reminds me of the card Faithless Looting and if the wincon is going to be Mortarpod or Walking Ballista perhaps you could call it "Faithless Shooting."

I do think better names could be given, but those are what immediately comes to my mind.

July 17, 2020 10:09 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #34

The combo is just adding Seasoned Pyromancer to the predefined Nim Deathmantle/Ashnod's Altar list. I mean, in many ways the deck could just be the spicier version of those decks using Myr Battlesphere (Which this deck could use for redundancy and for a predetermined win if drawn). That combo was once referred to as the meatball combo for Myr Battlesphere.

Something like Spicy (or Seasoned) Meatballs seems fun, since we are replacing the old plain meatball xD

July 17, 2020 10:23 p.m.

StopShot says... #35

@SynergyBuild, Myr Battlesphere is just too slow as you can't attack right away unless you add another piece to the combo and the initial combo can't draw for those extra pieces either.

Instead of Myr Battlesphere I think I'd rather run Murderous Redcap or Sling-Gang Lieutenant or Scampering Scorcher as I can take out all my opponents on the spot with any of them and they're much cheaper to cast too.

The reason I wanted to look hard into this avenue when easier options exist is simply because the Pyromancer option is cheaper CMC-wise to pull off and Seasoned Pyromancer by itself provides more value than any of those CMC creatures as well.

July 17, 2020 10:42 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #36

True, I wasn't saying you should, just mentioned you could to make infinite mana. It was more for the name!

July 17, 2020 11:04 p.m.

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