If you would draw a card, you may instead choose land or nonland and reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a card of the chosen kind. Put that card into your hand and put all other cards revealed this way on the bottom of your library in any order.

Abundance Discussion

Kiran_M on Chulane Bouncer of Tales

1 day ago

I have built a Chulane deck myself (it's currently my premier EDH deck), and I can say that your deck looks pretty good. However, I would prioritize getting untapped lands in your mana base over any kind of better tapland (with the exception of Field of the Dead, which I also run) because they allow you to keep going and chaining stuff together with Chulane. I would consider some draw-thinning effects such as Abundance, Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar, etc. to smooth your draws with Chulane. Finally, I would recommend Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, as he is one of the stars of my deck, functioning as both card advantage and a repeatable tutor if you have enough green creatures. Oh, and maybe also run more things that copy Chulane's effect such as Primordial Sage, The Great Henge, and Zendikar Resurgent (the last two also ramp you).

Good luck!

P.S. Here's my list if you want to take a peek; I've been meaning to do custom categories but haven't gotten around to it: Chulane Creatures

Woiteck on Sylvan Library Combo?

2 weeks ago

Or you can use Abundance with Sylvan Library. The drawback is that you have to show the cards, but on the other hand, you can choose whether you get 3 lands or nonlands.

StopShot on Help me foolproof this infinite ...

3 weeks ago

@SynergyBuild, Ah well I wanted to leave what kind of deck this would be open-ended so that if it couldn't fit well in my deck it may still serve someone else's deck better. What strikes me about this combo is you could play Ashnod's Altar for , Seasoned Pyromancer for and if you produce two tokens you can cast Nim Deathmantle practically for and still have enough resources to initiate the combo without any additional mana expenditures meaning the combo has the capability to be used with as little as mana total. I feel like this is really low to the ground and may find use in either Legacy (or Modern if Ashnod's Altar is ever printed into that format). Though I haven't played in the Legacy format so perhaps that remark is a bit of a stretch and I'm sure there's loads of reasons to doubt Ashnod's Altar will ever end up in Modern, but having this sort of open-ended conversation I think can serve a lot of good even if its for commander or a different format.

As for my deck I am running Alesha, Who Smiles at Death so . So that does happen to bar me from great suggestions such as Unlife's Thassa's Oracle/Laboratory Maniac suggestion or RambIe's Abundance suggestion. I do want to thank both for bringing everyone's attention to those cards. Also due to the constraints of my deck I want to not run creatures with power 3 or greater and I don't want to run cards with CMC 5 or greater (if I can help it). That said I do want to thank PhotogenicParasympathetic for their card suggestion of Bone Miser and RambIe's suggestion to use Garna, the Bloodflame. Even if these cards don't fit into the constraints of my deck it is wonderful that they were brought up as I feel they actually do the combo a lot of good if you can run them.

I believe the cards suggested that help me the most for my deck are RambIe's suggestion of Shadow of the Grave and most importantly dingusdingo's suggestion to use Library of Leng which I am absolutely kicking myself for, for not being able to think of it around the time I made this thread. Library of Leng as I see it practically answers holes A and B and is so incredibly cheap to cast on top of that. I'm kicking myself because before coming up with this combo I was trying to come up with a two card draw engine using the library as one of the pieces.

I also want to thank dingusdingo and enpc for better explaining how this combo is non-deterministic which better exemplifies why holes A and B are so important to fill. It's also why Library of Leng was such a critical card to be noted as it turns the combo from undeterministic to deterministic.

That all being said however Library of Leng well may bring up a very hazy rules interaction into question that I feel I must have to consult a judge on. If you go onto the Gatherer page for Library of Leng and check the card rulings below on that page it specifies: "Since the card goes directly to the library, the card is not revealed unless the spell or ability requiring the discard specifically says it is."

Because of this ruling the cards discarded aren't revealed, however Seasoned Pyromancer says you can only create tokens based on what cards were discarded. So would this interaction mean that I could discard two land cards, not reveal the fact they are two land cards due to Library of Leng's ruling and then claim the two cards I discarded were actually nonland cards just to produce the tokens? Obviously that scenario wouldn't work, but this begs the question how does this work? Remember the card ruling says the cards aren't revealed unless an effect specifically says to reveal the discarded card and no where does Seasoned Pyromancer say the discarded cards must be revealed because typically the contents of any player's graveyard is common knowledge to everyone. So this effect would only apply to cards such as Nephalia Academy, Noxious Vapors, Cabal Therapy, etc. where reveal is explicitly stated. But I might be wildly misinterpreting this effect as it could also be abusive with cards that have transmute or Seismic Assault where what you discard matters except the rulings for Library of Leng also states: "You can’t use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren’t effects." Transmute and Seismic Assault use the discarded card as a cost, but Seasoned Pyromancer doesn't so is this a blind spot in the rules?

But excluding what I just mentioned there Library of Leng is probably the best answer for countering Holes A and B so far, but it's still not a 100% perfect solution. There's always the risk of running into a massive land block before drawing into it and there's also the concern of if your deck has an odd number of cards, then if its the bottom card of your library you'd need some additional effect to draw into it as drawing two cards at a time would cause you to deck out and lose the game before you could even cast it. While I'm fully aware both effects are still very unlikely they do exist and that probability is a non-zero entity even if for it being very unlikely.

One card I'm already running in my deck that may help mitigate one of those issues however is Conjurer's Bauble which I can use to guarantee the bottom card of my library won't be the Library of Leng. And if I choose not to put a card on the bottom of my library, that can trip can be used to turn a library with an odd number of cards in it into a library with an even number of cards in it. It's also helpful in the event I mill either it or Elixir of Immortality into my graveyard whether by some dredge effect or through milling caused by an opponent from earlier in the game. I thought I'd bring everyone's attention to Conjurer's Bauble as the cheap cost and can trip makes it an accessory to this combo that won't be a dead draw in the event you don't have the combo out.

RambIe on Help me foolproof this infinite ...

3 weeks ago

Thinking about my own words i guess you havn't seen me play so i will make a final attempt explaining how i would actually fire this with Abundance

I would know my own deck so lets say I'm running my casual template of 30 lands, 25 creatures, 20 instants, 10 artifacts, 10 sorcery, and 5 enchantments

I would first look at my board state lets say i just have these 4 perms and idk 8 lands
I would then review my gy lets say i have 2 spells and 2 fetch lands
Then i would check my hand and lets say there is 3 spells
well i would know that i am running a 30/70 build
(70 - 4 battlefield, - 2 gy, - 3 hand, and -1 commander)
(30 - 8 battlefield, -2 gy) i would then know that i have 60 nonland cards and 20 land cards left in my deck

so step one i would play the combo out normally announcing non land as my replacement so that everyone could see how it works and give everyone a chance to respond
i would then announce that i am going to repeat this process 29 more times to create a total of 30 1/1 tokens
i would then reveal 58 non land cards through the deck, choose 3 to hand and discard 58 cards
at this point in time i would have a potential of 60 colorless mana and my choice of any 3 cards from my deck
my first choice would be to cast Shadow of the Grave
what happens next would depend on the deck but if that spell resolves i can promise its game

RambIe on Help me foolproof this infinite ...

3 weeks ago

@dingusdingo FFS Library of Leng yes this should have been one of the first cards to be suggested.

to quote myself "RambIe says...#11 I can vision this in jund
plenty of ways in these colors to make this combo go lethal or as pointed out fetch win (IMO do both)"

i really didnt want to do a card list for this
but jund is pacted with etb,death, enter/leave gy, discard, draw, sac triggers that could be used to win with this combo Glint-Horn Buccaneer for one example. the reason i dont want to make a list for this is becouse there are so many cards in these colors it could be its own topic

again on slow play with Abundance there is no shuffle, there is no repeat of the board state, you simply remove the library and stop drawing cards.

"Sorry to hear you don't like proud netdecker players"
thank you for that i needed a strong laugh this morning
i find them wildly entertaining its like watching a bunch of toddlers that have not learned to ride there bikes with out training wheels form a biker gang
The part that upsets me is the constant harassment, and belittling they do to others for not wanting to be like them

irl its easy to deal with. when they sit at the table and i see there commander i already know there deck, what combos there going after,how and when to stop it. they see my commander and they know nothing about my deck. as ive tested and proven with tapped out i can even reveal my entire deck and they still fail to understand how it works.
but online is a different story there is no way for me to open your eyes

dingusdingo on Help me foolproof this infinite ...

4 weeks ago


Nowhere did I suggest you should be afraid of an Elesh Norn at instant speed. The cards I listed are all static effects that shut off the combo that are common in competitive and fringe competitive decks, and I listed them because they shut down the combo. These are cards that may already be on the table at the time you try to combo, and have the combo shut off as an available line of play.

I also suggested 3 cards in my initial post ITT, Zulaport Cutthroat, Impact Tremors, and Phyrexian Altar. Criticism is also valid in and of itself. We can spend all day talking about this combo until we're blue in the face, but a 3 card combo that bricks out at multiple points into a non-deterministic repeating loop has serious problems, especially when people in this very same thread are posting about assembling actual lists for this combo. Especially as this balloons from a 3 card combo to 4 or 5 cards, it begins to become way less likely any player will execute the combo in any of their games.

My post is also the first time that Leyline of the Void or graveyard removal in general is brought into the thread, the OP discusses Leyline of Sanctity which is a different type of effect, graveyard replacement versus hexproof. Feel free to control F or reread the thread as much as you need. Discussing the counters to a combo in a thread about a combo is helpful to anyone learning about the combo.

You're 0/3 there bud, please double check yourself before posting.


Packing answers is an acceptable answer. It is worth noting which static effects hard stop the combo so you know what to look out for/counterspell.

So the reason that Squee + FC + Korvold is not a slow play is because you can give a number of times to loop and have an expected outcome without repeating any game states. You can say you sacrifice Squee to Food Chain and recast him 100 times to generate 100 mana. With Korvold in play, you can say explicitly how many times you sacrifice Squee to draw a card and draw through your deck. The game state is meaningfully different each time you loop. Each time you sacrifice Squee to Food Chain, you have generated 1 more mana than before, or drawing 1 more card into hand than before with Korvold in play. Now compare this to Pyro + Altar + Deathmantle. The tokens generated are based on the loop resolving. We don't know for sure how many tokens we will get. We don't know what the expected outcome of a loop performed is. As such, you aren't able to shortcut any part of the process. Korvold saying he makes 1000000 mana takes all of 5 seconds, but drawing your deck with Pyro combo will require 5 minutes. Not being able to shortcut coupled with high chance of hitting the same game state twice is what causes this to become a problem.

Abundance does solve the reliability of finding the correct non-land cards to keep the fires of the combo going. The reason it doesn't solve the non-deterministic problem is that you're still going to hit a repeat game state on a shuffle trigger. There needs to be a card that meaningfully advances the game state 100% guaranteed to happen before the first shuffle and each shuffle afterwards. There are tons of cards linked in this thread that can do the trick, most of them are the combo payoffs like Surly Badgersaur or Impact Tremors.

Sorry to hear you don't like proud netdecker players. There is a lot of elitism in the community, but also a lot of people who wish to see the strengths as well as the limitations of the available card choices.

P.S. you can use Library of Leng + Impact Tremors with this combo to loop for wins.

RambIe on Help me foolproof this infinite ...

4 weeks ago

"Just learned you apparently have an "I" and not an "L" in your name"
ya sorry about that, i explained it in great detail in a different thread but its not done to be misleading, i honest thought people would just copy paste my name but this happens alot, its not just you.

skipping what your skipping

i do not disagree that status effects stop this combo, status effects stop most combos that's why they see so much play. but that shouldn't stop you from trying instead you should plan for it and pack awnsers

as for slow play a very popular combo that's currently in cedh
Food Chain, Squee, the Immortal, &Korvold, Fae-Cursed King
this combo works by exiling squee 7 times then casting squee and the korvold sacking squee to the etb and drawing 1 card
then exile korvold exile squee 3 times sack etb draw 1 card
then exile korvold exile squee 5 times sack etb draw 1 card
then exile korvold exile squee 7 times sack etb draw 1 card
rinse repeat until they finally draw into a Walking Ballista
if that is widely considered except able play i don't see how this combo is any worse

i feel Abundance is an answer becouse
at first you are only going to draw non-land cards there fore you constantly evolving your bored state by building more tokens
second stage starts by reloading hand from graveyard to keep the token gen going and consistently drawing 2 lands. again library getting smaller board state growing larger with tokens.
third stage utilize its replacement effect, no library left, no card draw, no shuffle just reveal 0 and fail to find, continue to evolve the board state by looping gy

as for competitve edh play
i would not dismiss other players or there decks
commander has this grey area that the more consistent you evolve your deck the more susceptible you become to being shut down by a single card
if you watch command zone's m21 core set game you can witness a prime example of this
i have just become custom to playing in that zone and have gotten pretty good at exploiting the weakness in competitive decks
as for everything else about cedh i have to confess is just my person trolling i need to address. i have played for years watching knuckleheads buying net decks and playing standard & modern acting like there god's gift to magic by following a preset template and gaining 30-40 points per week as if its nothing. while i have sat at the edh table developing my own unique play styles and combos and lucky if i could pull off 4 points in a month.

the win's goto there head they think they are all power full and they truly believe that somehow they are superior. now cedh has become a thing and now i get to enjoy the net decks coming to my table trying to tell me how to play my decks to be like theirs. so i tend to over react a bit when i feel this mentality is being pushed on others.

dingusdingo on Help me foolproof this infinite ...

4 weeks ago

RambIe Just learned you apparently have an "I" and not an "L" in your name O_O

I have read this whole thread. My comments were 100% on-topic and highly relevant. Nothing I posted was already addressed. Everything I posted is why I feel the combo doesn't work.

I don't wish to debate the meaning of the word "evaluate" with you, so I will assure you that I used evaluate correctly. It can exist outside of making a pros/cons list. This is entirely semantics and not worth discussing further though.

I have already correctly identified the place to use removal during the combo, but I will repeat it again for your benefit. If you stack removal above either the ETB from the Pyromancer or in response to the Deathmantle trigger, you will stop the combo. As far as static effects, I'm not going to beat around the bush with you, but plenty of static effects that commonly see play shut this combo off entirely.

As far as slowplay, if you plan to play at any DCI sanctioned event you are liable to receive a slowplay warning. Especially as you talk about bringing this to a competitive event, you need to be aware that your opponents CAN call judge on you for this. Honestly though, you shouldn't run this combo in a kitchen table game for the exact same reason: it IS a non-deterministic loop that you can't specify how many exact times you wish to run it with a guaranteed outcome. This isn't some ultra crazy only competitive rule, its literally just a rule that always exists in MTG. As far as "Oh slowplay was already solved because Abundance", no lol. It wasn't, you're still liable to hit shuffler trigger twice and then get the repeat game state. You won't always receive a slowplay, but this is yet another way for this combo to brick out after getting assembled. On top of drawing into too many lands to brick out, you also have hitting repeat shuffler triggers before finding your outlet as a brick out.

Which brings us to competitive. I don't really care to mince words with you further, because 3rd out of 30 using a precon speaks to your "competitive edh night" being incredibly soft. Whatever your misgivings and hurt feelings about competitive, I am going to warn you once again that this combo will get absolutely shredded in a real competitive setting. Its not that you will never win with this deck, just that you'll be winning 10% of games where another combo would have led to winning 20% of your games. If you feel comfortable giving up 10+% of your wins to an unreliable combo, feel free.

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