Black is the Best Color
General forum
Posted on Oct. 19, 2014, 4:03 p.m. by -Fulcrum
So I felt like starting a debate. This is NOT intended to cause an argument, but rather to learn more about the game.
Now my case.
Black has it all. Card advantage. Discard. Kill spells. Boardwipes. Lifegain. Aggro. Utility. Midrange. Reanimation. Even a freaking counterspell.
Some examples.
Thoughtseize , Hymn to Tourach
Bloodsoaked Champion , Gravecrawler
Reanimate , Goryo's Vengeance , Sheoldred, Whispering One , Dread Return
Damnation , Black Sun's Zenith
Necropotence , Phyrexian Arena , Dark Confidant
Whip of Erebos , Essence Harvest
Phyrexian Obliterator , Rune-Scarred Demon , Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Cabal Coffers , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Once again, Griselbrand . Because Griselbrand .
I'm sure there are plenty others, but I'm not out to write a book. Yet.
I would love to hear everyone else's opinions. And nobody be a bitch about it.
Did I mention Griselbrand ?
And at the end of the day none of that is better than blue and a lot of that isn't good when not played along side blue
October 19, 2014 4:08 p.m.
Blue is the only colour that can react to things before they've even hit the board, and therefore blue is the best. Also correct me if I'm wrong but it's also the only colour that has 0-cost removal in Force of Will . You can argue that hand control is equivalent but it's not really because hand control doesn't make them waste a turn by tapping out first.
Black doesn't have a counterspell. You'd be mad to think that Dash Hopes is even close to playable.
October 19, 2014 4:14 p.m.
Force of Will , Ancestral Recall , Brainstorm , Remand , Snapcaster Mage , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , Ponder , Counterspell , Spell Pierce , Mana Drain , Time Walk , Vendilion Clique , Intuition , Show and Tell .... blue is better :)
October 19, 2014 4:14 p.m.
Blue would like to have a word with you. Force of Will , Tinker , Ancestral Recall , Time Walk , Brainstorm , Upheaval , Counterspell , Misdirection , and Vedalken Shackles as an honorary blue card.
October 19, 2014 4:15 p.m.
Black is probably the best colour in modern though, I'd say.
October 19, 2014 4:15 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #8
Each of the rug essentially best each other while white black are the most splashed technically white and black are the same color if you think about it
October 19, 2014 4:16 p.m.
White and black aren't even remotely the same colour. White doesn't have removal on par with black's. White doesn't have hand control like black's. White doesn't have card draw like black's.
Also it's probably not worth saying is blue is the best colour and then listing cards that aren't actually playable in most formats........
October 19, 2014 4:18 p.m.
@10vernothin: You have a point. Which is honestly why my favorite deck type is BG Rock. Adding in Green or White fixes pretty much every problem that mono black has.
@xlaleclx: I respect your opinion, but you have no argument.
@ChiefBell: I completely agree, I would never play Dash Hopes . But it's still a black counterspell that was printed. And I agree that Blue is very powerful because of its counters and card advantage. That is why, in my opinion, Blue is the best secondary color to complement black.
@smackjack: A good argument. Many of those cards are very powerful. I firmly hold onto the belief that black has better card advantage because it's in the form of permanents and not a one time thing.
Blue does indeed have a way of stopping others cards from even happening, but has few efficient methods of stopping that which has already resolved. Black can take care of most things that hit the field, and the discard effects can also stop opponents from using their spells to begin with. Again, not as efficient as Blue, but it's still there.
October 19, 2014 4:25 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #12
I'm not really speaking on power level as much as simple ability
White uses creatures to draw black users life.
White has 2 of the best removal in the entire game.
Though white lacks hand control it can deal with enchantments which black can't do... other than that all white and black cards essentially do the same things using the resources on par with their identity
October 19, 2014 4:28 p.m.
Fulcrum - blue pre-empts the opponent, black reacts to it. It's probably safer to pre-empt than to react to because pre-empting stops ETB's etc.
Also black isn't generally more efficient in its answers than blue. A counterspell is a 1-for-1. A killspell is a 1-for-1. Hand attack cards are a 1-for-1. Black does have Damnation I suppose but we're approaching the limits of playability.
VampireArmy - that's an interesting argument but that still means that W and B are different both thematically, and competitively. Also I really don't like Path to Exile as much as Abrupt Decay (just saying because you mentioned white having 2 of the best removal ever).
October 19, 2014 4:36 p.m.
VampireArmy - White and Black are nothing alike. The only things they share are mass creature removal and lifelink. Everything else can't be further apart. Black has unrestricted targeted kill spells, card draw attached to costs (life, creatures, etc.), hand attack, deathtouch, some regeneration, and intimidate. White has better weenie creatures, universal answers, enchantment removal, vigilance, and flying (at lower rarities). While cards like Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile exist, they do not represent what White does as a color. And comparing white's card draw to blacks is hilarious. White is LAST in card advantage while Black is 2nd only to Blue (still the best color).
October 19, 2014 4:37 p.m.
@VampireArmy: White has practically no card advantage.
@ChiefBell: You're right there. But blue has few efficient answers to permanents already on the field.
October 19, 2014 4:39 p.m.
@JWiley129; I partially disagree with you. Blue's card advantage is second only to black. Blue has many cantrips and Divination like effects, but Black has permanent card advantage.
October 19, 2014 4:42 p.m.
SkyRaider42 says... #17
The dumbest thing I've heard today is "This is not intended to cause an argument, but rather learn more about the game." <----- This is an opinion. Stating your opinion won't help people learn more about the game.
October 19, 2014 4:42 p.m.
10vernothin says... #18
actually, black pre-empts the opponent, blue reacts to it
This is seen with counterspells vs targetted discard. When you cast duress, you're pre-emptively guessing that there's a non-creature threat in your opponent's hand; saying that, there's a chance that your pre-emptive "strike" was uncalled for and there is no non-creature spell.
When you cast a counterspell, on the other hand, you are reacting to what the opponent is playing. You're not really presuming anything in anyone's hand. However, the analogy of missing with counterspell is of course, being short-sighted and having no mana up to react or react to the wrong threat.
Flavor-wise, targetted discard and counterspells employ diametric strategies.
October 19, 2014 4:42 p.m.
SkyRaider42 says... #19
Did you also just say that black has better card advantage than blue? Do you know what card advantage is? You can doom blade and dismember all you want but 1 for 1 trades aren't card advantage
October 19, 2014 4:44 p.m.
@SkyRaider42: What I do is in no way an opinion. You can't say its your opinion that I walked to the fridge, I either did or I didn't. My intention is exactly the same. I intend to do my homework. There's no opinion in that. What you call the dumbest thing you've heard is an opinion, because you think it's dumb. But apparently you don't know what an opinion is, so I don't know if I should bother.
October 19, 2014 4:45 p.m.
TheFanatic says... #21
@ChiefBell Black is actually quite good at pre-empting the opponent, only in a different way (namely, discard). Thoughtseize and similar cards are great ways to get rid of an opponent's threats before they can do anything.
October 19, 2014 4:46 p.m.
SkyRaider42 says... #22
What you just said didn't pertain to my comment at all and doesn't make sense.
October 19, 2014 4:46 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #23
I was excluding multi colored cards with that statement.
Oh course that are different colors thematically but let's look at function
Forgetting hand disruption and enchantment removal, they share
Resurrection, countering with added stipulation, removal with added stipulation, token generation, fog effects, and yes card draw is last but why is that? That's because it's easier to pay life than to keep things in play. Honestly card draw is something all colors share now though yes blue is obviously the best at it so why not just strike that point down. My main idea here was that they tend to do the same things using different stipulations and resources. Such as you can Doom Blade
but not black creatures while you can Path to Exile
at the cost of one land.
October 19, 2014 4:46 p.m.
Black doesn't wholly pre-empt though because MOST of black is removal, rather than hand attack cards. Also blue does pre-empt because you have to keep your mana open in the opponents turn, pre-empting the fact that the opponent will play something you want to counter. It's a harsher form of pre-empting. With black you can play your card to look at their hand and then tap out if you see nothing. With blue you generally can't do this - you have to leave all your mana open.
October 19, 2014 4:47 p.m.
@SkyRaider42: Are you a native English speaker? If not, I apologize.
I was never calling one-for-one trades card advantage. I was calling Necropotence , Phyrexian Arena , Underworld Connections , and Yawgmoth's Bargain card advantage. If you disagree, that is your opinion. Though you might call it a fact.
October 19, 2014 4:48 p.m.
@VampireArmy: Again, I disagree that Blue has the best card advantage. It's extremely powerful, and calling Ancestral Recall ridiculous is an understatement, but Black has permanent card advantage.
October 19, 2014 4:54 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #28
Look, imma let you finish, but if black is the strongest color... Then why is Storm Crow blue?
internet: 1
OP: dead in the ground
October 19, 2014 4:55 p.m.
SkyRaider42 says... #29
Before I comment, I would like to apologize for calling your statement dumb. English is my first language, and I would've appreciated if you had been the bigger person and not insulted my lack of understanding your comment.
But back to the comment. There is no best color in Magic. Magic was designed for each color to good at different areas of Magic. They can't be compared to each other because they all do different things. Comparing Black to Blue would be like comparing Lightning Bolt to Dark Ritual . You can't do it, because they have nothing in common.
October 19, 2014 4:55 p.m.
Maybe I could explain myself better. Blue has to pre-empt more in its allocation of resources (how it uses its mana). Black doesn't to the same extent. Hand discard is sorcery speed, and if you see nothing in the hand you're safe to play. Blue has to leave mana open in the opponents turn - it's a more obvious form of pre-empting future plays.
Fulcrum - I agree that necropotence et al. are also incredibly, incredibly powerful cards - but again we're skirting the edges of playability. At sorcery speed and 3 mana they're just in no way comparable to instant speed and 1 mana (even if the blue counterpart) only digs for 1 or 2). Better raw advantage from black sure, but generally slower and more resource heavy (requiring more mana etc).
October 19, 2014 4:55 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #31
Well actually lightning bolt and dark ritual are a part of the same cycle so they have a lot in common.
October 19, 2014 4:57 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #32
What do you mean by permanent card advantage?
Also, I forgot to point out Scavenging Ooze , Abrupt Decay , and any mana accelerant ever (Deathrite Shaman among them).
October 19, 2014 4:57 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #33
I very much hate these threads. Every color is good. All of them are Vintage playable. All of them are Legacy playable. All of them are Casual playable.
October 19, 2014 5:01 p.m.
SkyRaider42 - blue has some of the best aggro options, midrange options and lategame plays. It's just stupid. You have the versions of Jace, Delver of Secrets Flip , Palinchron , Gifts Ungiven , etc. It's a creature enabling colour, its a control colour, it does anything.
October 19, 2014 5:01 p.m.
"Forest, Llanowar Elves , Go"
If this is not right I don't know what is....
October 19, 2014 5:03 p.m.
Fulcrum - You don't understand, Blue is number 1 in card advantage per Mark Rosewater, lead designer of Magic. Blue gets the best card advantage because the main way to interact with it is via counterspells, a very blue ability. Furthermore, Blue does get permanent ways to generate card advantage through cards like Jushi Apprentice , Arcanis the Omnipotent , and Azami, Lady of Scrolls . Black can also get similar card advantage to blue, but at a cost. E.g. Dark Confidant , Sign in Blood , Night's Whisper , and Read the Bones just to name a few. So if your point is that Black's card draw is better because it's more permanent, I hope the examples I gave make you reconsider.
October 19, 2014 5:03 p.m.
also Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study
even recently there's Bident of Thassa and Military Intelligence
October 19, 2014 5:05 p.m.
@GlistenerAgent: By permanent card advantage, I meant forms of card advantage that are permanents. Like Necropotence is a permanent while Divination is a nonpermanent.
October 19, 2014 5:05 p.m.
GlistenerAgent but there's a reason that Mox Sapphire is played more than Black Lotus ........
October 19, 2014 5:07 p.m.
GlistenerAgent - To ChiefBell's point, listening to pros talk about Vintage there are Blue decks and Non-Blue decks (Dredge & Oath of Druids come to mind). That should tell you a little bit about what is the "best" color.
October 19, 2014 5:09 p.m.
@JWiley129: Point proven. Blue wins in card advantage.
Now what about everything else?
October 19, 2014 5:10 p.m.
Well counterspells are like killspells. It also has 'return to hand' and 'return to library' spells which are somewhat equivalent. It generally has worse creatures but has some that stand out above and beyond anything black can offer like Delver of Secrets Flip
October 19, 2014 5:14 p.m.
Have you guys even played with Elvish Mystic ?
Turn 2 Awakener Druid anyone?
No?
I'll find the door....
October 19, 2014 5:17 p.m.
Fulcrum - First let me applaud you for acknowledging you were wrong about black's card advantage. Not many people on the internet admit that they are wrong, so props to you.
Now, Blue has counterspells which are a surefire way to stop any shenanigans from any other color. Force of Will is an $80 card for a reason, despite being only playable in Vintage, Legacy, and EDH. It stops almost everything for free (it doesn't stop Storm triggers). Blue also has several aggressive tribes, just look at Merfolk with cards like Lord of Atlantis and Master of the Pearl Trident . Blue also has one of the best 1 drops in Delver of Secrets Flip . So Blue can do aggro. For Midrange blue lets those decks protect threats with counterspells like Stubborn Denial and Negate and bounce spells to help get your threats through. In control Blue's role is unquestioned with counterspells and card draw. While Blue doesn't get hand attack, kill spells, or true board wipes, it makes up for it with the universal way to stop them from ever happening. I don't think I can convince you otherwise, but those are my points.
And full disclosure, I hate blue. But I can acknowledge the blue is probably the best color.
October 19, 2014 5:37 p.m.
I worship the golgari overlords but acknowledge that blue is probably the best colour in isolation.
October 19, 2014 5:40 p.m.
@JWiley129: Admittedly it does take a very thorough argument to get me to admit I'm wrong, but I hope at least I was able to present my argument well.
Blue aggro is indeed a thing. As for midrange and control, I understand it can do its thing quite well and may indeed be the integral color of the deck, but it can't do it on its own.
I used to hate blue, now I just accept it. My favorite deck that I play right now is my Modern BUG deck, so I fully understand the power of Blue. Interestingly enough, my only source of CA is Treasure Cruise and some cantrips instead of Dark Confidant or Phyrexian Arena .
October 19, 2014 5:49 p.m.
Dalektable says... #50
It's been discussed at length, so I'm going to keep it short and simple and say blue. It has the best card advantage and some of the single most powerful spells in the game. So, in a bubble, blue.
10vernothin says... #2
no enchantment removal.
October 19, 2014 4:06 p.m.