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|Commander / EDH||Legal|
|Commander: Rule 0||Legal|
Retribution of the Meek
Destroy all creatures with power 4 or greater. They can't be regenerated.
SufferFromEDHD on Pramikon, The Wall of Stall
1 day ago
Retribution of the Meek would be another upgrade to the 8 and 9 cost removal.
Peacekeeper too much?
Orim's Chant the white time walk. Only suggesting this because you are running the neat Mandate of Peace. I think both fit the theme of the deck.
Long-Term Plans has potential.
Are the flicker effects for Pramikon? Clever. This list has graveyard recursion for enchantments via Hall of Heliod's Generosity so maybe Teleportation Circle?
Crow-Umbra on Alesha Aristocrats
3 weeks ago
Overall I think your deck is solid and has many of the core components an Alesha deck would want. I do have some recommendations on potential cuts and swaps.
Cathars' Crusade - I don't think it's super helpful for this deck, as most Alesha decks aren't really aiming to go wide and swing a big board at multiple opponents, especially if you are more combo focused as you seem to be.
Dusk / Dawn - In general I think you can safely run 2 board wipes in this deck. The Dawn part of the card is kind of counter-intuitive since you would want those creatures returned to your board instead of your hand. This was a card I cut from my build fairly early.
Ruinous Ultimatum - Mostly because of the restrictive and higher mana cost. I've used this in both Alesha and Isshin at various points of each build and ultimately cut it due to having games where my mana wasn't perfectly fixed to accommodate the cost, mostly because I had some colorless mana rocks or utility lands.
Stuff to consider for swap-ins
Burning Inquiry - Can round out your suite of looting effects and also throw opponents off kilter if they chuck stuff they would want to keep. Def a risk/reward element.
Gamble - Another tutor effect that can potentially chuck something into your graveyard that you might want there anyways.
Elas il-Kor, Sadistic Pilgrim - Another aristocrat that can cushion your life a bit.
Loran of the Third Path - Another reusable ETB removal effect, and a strategic/political drawing option.
Mayhem Devil - An aristocrat option that also punishes your opponents running sacrifice effects.
Retribution of the Meek - Ditto as Slaughter the Strong.
Slaughter the Strong - A wipe effect that Alesha can dodge, and is lower on cmc than some of the other options you're currently running.
Tocasia's Welcome - Another draw option. Currently 17 of your 33 creatures, including Alesha, are 3 cmc or less. Would also trigger from your Preston and Jaxis tokens.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan - Another Free sac-outlet, and a potential aggro option or decent blocker if needed.
I hope these suggestions are helpful. I'd be happy to chat more about your play experiences with Alesha so far, and maybe looking for other pieces that might be able to better help what you're trying to pull off. Cheers!
Crow-Umbra on Michigone
1 month ago
Hi there! I thought I'd try my best to answer the questions you left for me on my wall. I mostly play the "typical" 4-person EDH pod, with the occasional 5 person game here or there. All of my decks are built with a multi-player setting in mind. To answer your other questions as best as possible:
1 - What is my win rate with Isshin? - This is something I haven't kept close track of, unfortunately. In the past year, I've played at least 20 games with the deck, so I'd have a rough guess that it's won about 25% of the games it has played, and threatened wins another 15-20% of the time, but couldn't quite close it out for one reason or another. My primer has some game logs in the long list of updates if you want to try to read through those. I tried to capture the summary of some of my more memorable games, win or lose.
2 - How do you win with Isshin in multiplayer? - Damage, whether combat or group slug/drain damage. Any aggro or damage based strategy has to find a way to pump out at least 120 damage over the course of a game, or capitalize on openings made by other decks in peoples' defenses. My Isshin deck wins by making swarms of tokens, and antheming them up with Battle Cry, Melee, or some other static power/toughness boost. The times I've won with combat damage, was typically off the back of Iroas, God of Victory because I had a board that could swing away and was hard to block. This is why I also have the damage effects of Purphoros, God of the Forge, Mishra, Claimed by Gix Meld, Commissar Severina Raine, Impact Tremors, and Brutal Hordechief. The group damage and combat damage help each other out. They both soften up your opponents and help make each other more viable. These damage effects also help you get "around" blockers.
"So what do I do? Lean more into group slug, i.e. put in Impact Tremors? Lean away from wipes and focus on ramp and draw? More protection for my creatures?"
These are all generally good ideas. Adding in more ramp and draw can help your deck with consistency, especially for staying gassed up in the mid-late game. While board wipes are helpful, I've found that sometimes it can get annoying to reset the game too many times. At some point someone has to win, and wiping the board 3+ times in a single game can make it tedious instead.
3 - "Is it mean/distasteful to eliminate the player that is the biggest threat, then finish off everyone else? Am I a bully?*" - Personally, I don't think so. I guess it depends on how well you know the people you are playing with. If the "threat" you eliminated has a deck that consistently pops off if it isn't dealt with, then I don't think it's wrong for them to sit one out. I've been a similar position numerous times with Isshin where I'll eliminate the player that might be the biggest threat to me specifically or could be the biggest threat to the table. If I become archenemy of that game, then so be it. Being archenemy can be fun, and it can be a compliment. Congrats, your deck is now the Big Bad Scary Thing. This is a game, and someone has to win each match up. Yes, EDH is supposed to be a "casual format", and that means a variety of different things to players, but after all is said and done, someone has to win. Ideally it can be you.
4 - "As the only deck in the meta with a robust removal suite..." - I will address the rest of the statement you left, but woof, it sounds like the group you played with this time around was maybe very casual? I found that when some of my friends first started playing EDH, they didn't run a whole lot of removal, often to their own detriment. As one friend and I like to echo, "removal wins games". I think you were correct in removing the Ghired's Anointed Procession, but left their other enchantment alone so they could have fun. Ideally, you shouldn't have to be the "Removal Police" and manage every threat you have the capability to. I typically use my removal to A) Address threats most pressing to me B) Address threats that are most detrimental to the table, but will buy me some good will and time to build afterwards. You can utilize removal for achieving parity as you see fit. In terms of this being a good strategy, I think a better question is more about was a fun game environment created? Being "Removal Police" is fun for some and not as much for others. Eventually, everyone else around the table might have to reconsider running more removal to stay relevant and interactive in games, if that's the type of play they want.
5 - "Board wipes made our games longer" - Going back to what I said a couple paragraphs up "While board wipes are helpful, I've found that sometimes it can get annoying to reset the game too many times" - I personally run 2 wipe effects in each deck. Most of my removal is single target, or can hit multiple things, but isn't quite a board wipe (Wear / Tear, Dismantling Wave, Grasp of Fate, Ashes to Ashes, or Druid of Purification). This is all personal choice though.
5.1 "How do I recover more quickly after a board wipe than my opponents? Do I need more card draw? Do I need more protection to keep my creatures around? " - Card draw is always more helpful. Upping the amount of card draw is typically helpful. The tricky part is tuning the type of draw utilized and finding the balance that feels right for you. For me I have about 14 effects in my deck that can draw cards in either cantrip single instances, in multi-card bursts, or in consistent but slow manners. It takes plenty of playing to see what feels right for you. I also run about 11 different effects that protect my board. I've found that Flawless Maneuver and Teferi's Protection have saved my board and kept them in tact enough to maintain momentum the times I've successfully pulled them off. Clever Concealment is a new option that is especially good in token decks. Scapegoat is another cool and cheap option for token decks, and also lets you redeploy your board strategically. I also keep my overall average CMC of my deck as low as I can, so in the event that I don't have a protection effect, but have drawn into plenty of material, I can play cheaply costed creatures and removal/interaction/protection while everyone else is still rebuilding.
5.2 "when is the right time in an aggro deck to play a board wipe?" - This requires more nuance and playing IRL to determine what feels right to you. I typically board wipe when someone else is building a bigger board than me, and is out-pacing me in that regard, but I have things in hand to quickly rebuild with afterwards, or have a protection effect to spare my board from my own wipe. It also depends on the types of wipes you are playing. White has a ton of options such as Promise of Loyalty, Slaughter the Strong, Retribution of the Meek, Vanquish the Horde, Farewell, Austere Command, and By Invitation Only to name a few. I've found it can be helpful to maybe have 1 wipe that is somewhat asymmetric, usually by presenting each player a choice on what they get to keep. This is a double edged sword since.... people get a choice on what they get to keep. While this may not solve the threat you were looking to eliminate, this may at least make things more manageable. I know Ruinous Ultimatum is a popular option because of how one-sided it is, but the restrictiveness of the mana cost can be annoying. Isshin doesn't necessarily win in 1 big flashy play that seemingly comes out of nowhere, like a combo deck might, but does build up a board presence and aggro momentum over a few turns. If you can continue to build and maintain a momentum, and add in more damage modifiers or Impact Tremors effects, it may then open up the opportunity for a big alpha strike turn, or a turn where you make a bunch of tokens with krenko tin street king pin because it stuck around long enough and you also have Impact Tremors and/or Hellrider and will either make a metric ton of goblins when Krenko swings, or you already have a metric ton of goblins to swing with for Hellrider.
Ultimately this is about finding what is most fun and engaging for you to play, and balancing that out with what is fun for your group. Unfortunately, not everyone has the same definition of fun. Some people will think its unfun or boring to get token swarmed or killed with Impact Tremors, and that's okay.
Definitely add more draw and ramp. Cut down your mana curve and on splashy, but inconsistent effects where possible.
Running robust removal and interaction is helpful, but don't think you have to be "threat/parity police" because of it. Other people can choose to step up their removal/interaction suites too. Less board-wipes can be a good thing.
A variety of board protection effects will help you maintain the momentum you are building. A lower mana curve helps you go into aggro mode faster, and hopefully rebuild more quickly after wipes. Ideally, this also helps leave a little mana leftover for your Clever Concealments, Boros Charms, and other protection effects.
Group Slug and combat damage help each other out and make each other more viable. You are trying to land 120 damage around the table to take out 3 other players, so ideally you should maximize your damage output and find what works best for you, and what is most fun and dynamic for you.
Best of luck and hope you continue to have fun playing this awesome commander.
Crow-Umbra on Isshin for a Fight
2 months ago
It sounds like you're on the right track with your swaps plainsrunner. I'm glad you have a Purph already, because it is an absolute heater in Isshin. It's helped me close out a few games, especially once I crank out tokens enough. Toxic Deluge is good if you have a lot of indestructible in your meta.
Slaughter the Strong and Retribution of the Meek are both potentially asymmetrical options, especially since they let you save Isshin. Promise of Loyalty is another wipe I've had some decent success with in other decks. I think Farewell is probably your best option. Ruinous Ultimatum is good, but the restrictive cost has hampered me in a couple games, so I nixed it recently.
I think the extra combats are a sliiiight trap, but I haven't played one out irl to finalize judgement. My ideal scenario is to have extra combats paired with any of the group slug options, eliminating some need for all creature damage to connect or be spread out.
If you lean into tokens I also highly recommend Plumb the Forbidden and Scapegoat as draw & protection options. In a game I played this past weekend, I played a Plumb the Forbidden in response to a Living Death. I was able to get Isshin and Grave Titan in my yard before Living Death resolved, and they both came back upon its resolution; I also had Purph on board. I closed the game out a turn or two later.
youareatrex on Mr. Arcades, tear down this wall!
2 months ago
Whoops, my bad Pyruscreed - just realizing I never responded to this.
So while Serra is a cool card I have never seen before tbh - the way I play the deck - really low to the ground - it doesn't quite make the cut.
1) My wincons are instant wins, and most of them less cmc than Serra. See below. So the play pattern is: I ramp into Arcades, I protect him, I play a bunch of walls and draw a bunch of cards. And then I play one of these on a developed board.
Akroma's Will Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive Tower Defense Triumph of the Hordes
2) I play a bunch of one-sided board-wipes that rely on my walls having low power. So the counters funk these up a bit.
Retribution of the Meek Slaughter the Strong Wave of Reckoning
Thanks very much for commeting!
mlequesne on THESE BUTTS ARE OUT OF CONTROL!
5 months ago
Love your deck friend!
Retribution of the Meek is a great card for this kind of decks
DreadKhan on assault
6 months ago
Not sure if it's really worth the investment, but the old Kjeldoran Outpost and Balduvian Trading Post can lower your land count while offering either a decent token generator or a bad damage source, Trading Post doesn't cost you mana, just fixing. I guess you'd have to pull Aether Flash to put in Outpost, so perhaps as a sideboard card? Just had a thought, but Goblin Chainwhirler is a pretty fun card to play vs decks using small creatures, not sure if 1 damage would be enough to matter compared to Flash hitting stuff for 2.
I get that instants are better than sorceries in almost all situations, but I feel like Retribution of the Meek is just much bigger than Reprisal, while still being lower to the ground than Wrath of God. Also worth a look (and cheaper) is Slaughter the Strong, which will kill all of their creatures if none are small enough to survive, and solves wide boards of even Indestructible creatures, as it's a sacrifice effect.
It's a bit out there for sure (most people openly despise these cards), but I have had some luck using Risk Factor and Browbeat to just bulk draw cards for mana in Red, the key was using it in a deck that would seriously consider playing either as a Burn spell with no possibility of cards, but that's often what it will be (most people start worrying about Fireblast and hate to go below 9 life, and might start feeding cards). I feel like your Seismic Assault is pretty synergistic, they almost have to give you the cards to avoid taking more damage, and I think you win via damage usually?
DreadKhan on zur slide ( partially tuned )
8 months ago
Not sure if you want a wipe, but Slaughter the Strong is pretty synergistic with Zur, as would Retribution of the Meek, especially if you don't use Voltron.
Rest in Peace and Web of Inertia as well as Energy Field are pretty good protection, while Rest in Peace is just a great card for Zur to have in the toolbox IMHO, many players are big on graveyard stuff, Zur's fetch means you don't have to be as dependent.
If your meta has big scary creatures that take over the game by themselves, Dance of Many is pretty funny.