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|Commander / EDH||Legal|
|Commander: Rule 0||Legal|
Creature — Orc Warrior
Whenever a creature you control attacks, defending player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
: Creatures your opponents control block this turn if able, and you choose how those creatures block.
1 day ago
Brew discussions are one of my favorite aspects of MtG and EDH. I'll hop on Discord a couple times a month and talk with my best friend about our deck ideas. We end up chatting for a couple hours at a time as we deliberate on decisions lol.
I used to run Fervor until Rising of the Day dropped earlier this year.
Ogre Battledriver is also a great Haste and Power boost for your creatures that ETB.
A note with Elturel Survivors is that its +X buff is static, so that won't get doubled by Isshin. This is what allows the Myriad tokens to "see" the lands that your opponents control. So each Myriad copy will check for the number of lands its respective defending opponent controls.
If you do want a Menace anthem, Goblin War Drums is also an option for the same CMC as Pyreheart Wolf, but is a bit more removal resistant. Hard to pass up on those death touch anthems though.
The tough thing with Lightning Runner is that it still has to attack over two turns to get the full 8 energy with Isshin on the board. Without him that gets stretched out to over 4 turns. I took a quick look at Cardkingdom, and the cheapest non-foil Aurelia is about $6.99.
The ETB group slug damage can get nasty once Isshin starts doubling up the token production on attacks, especially with Myrel. Some other budget effects are Corpse Knight and Witty Roastmaster. Purphoros, God of the Forge is still fairly out of budget, but a nice upgrade if you wanted to move that direction.
Hellrider, Commissar Severina Raine, and Brutal Hordechief are a nice suite of group slug damage that encourage you to swing with big boards. Commissar is also like a budget Skullclamp on a stick. Speaking of which, Skullclamp is a great draw piece for all your small token creatures, and should be under $10, depending on the printing.
I'm currently running 35 lands in my Isshin deck, along with the 3 Talismans, Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, Sword of the Animist, and some Treasure production in the form of Captain Lannery Storm, Professional Face-Breaker, and a handful of other Treasure producers.
As for the instants and sorceries, I tend not to suggest cuts as much there, since I think that's where more meta & playgroup specific tech decisions can be made. Generally speaking, I recommend cutting out single target sorcery speed removal, and saving those sorcery slots for board wipes & draw, Also try to make your instant speed removal be as target-versatile as possible to cut down on how many permanent-specific options you need to include. Here are a few thoughts I do have:
I'd suggest swapping Chaos Warp with Tibalt's Trickery. It's fun to catch people off guard with a red counter spell, and White & Black have a better go at removing the permanent types that Red typically can't. I think Chaos Warp is better if you're running a Red color combo that doesn't have access to Enchantment removal.
Terminate or Condemn can be cut or swapped with Soul Partition. Soul Partition is great since it can (temporarily) remove a troublesome nonland permanent, or save one of your own if needed. Sometimes the extra can throw off an oppoent's tempo if they really need to recast whatever you exiled, & sets them back a turn or two.
I think Vindicate can be replaced with Generous Gift and/or Stroke of Midnight. I think that making your suite of removal be as versatile as possible across a few cards can help you save multiple slots that are more specific/situational on what they can remove. The creature tokens created by Generous Gift & Stroke of Midnight are fairly low impact, & typically die in chump blocks or board wipes.
If you want some instant speed draw, I'd recommend checking out Plumb the Forbidden. It's an excellent response to your opponents board wiping, and since you can create copies of it, the copies will dodge counter spells.
Fates' Reversal can probably be cut. Isshin doesn't really want single target recursion, and the Venture the Dungeon is better if you have other instances of Venturing to get its benefits. Lich-Knights' Conquest is a new option for mass recursion that you can throw some creature or treasure tokens into.
A little off track from the instants and sorceries, but I'd recommend swapping out Paladin Class and replacing it with Flowering of the White Tree. The Ward 1 can make your opponents look for easier targets to remove, & helps some of your more aggro Legends stick around.
1 month ago
Looking pretty good! After some playtesting, I have more thoughts. Your landbase is pretty slow, and with 31 lands your deck wants a little more efficiency. Replace:
- Sandsteppe Citadel with Krosan Verge.
- Jungle Shrine with Mossfire Valley.
- Sandsteppe Citadel with Sungrass Prairie.
- Nomad Outpost with Shadowblood Ridge.
- Commander's Sphere with Chromatic Lantern: consider that each of the newer tri-lands cycle for 3 anyways, which means you have ~5 chromatic-lantern cost draws and cycling can't be conventionally countered.
You've got a pretty trim list now, but I still have some suggestions.
First off, you need more ramp. Warrior's Oath looks good, but since it can't be searched by Sunforger, you're better off with ramp. I strongly recommend Tempt with Discovery, which is one of the most powerful land-search cards for a multicolor deck using green: You get any land, and then if any opponents search for lands you get that many more of any land.
Djeru and Hazoret looks great, but since you're only running 16-17 other Legendary creatures excluding your commander, the odds will be 20%-25%. Not great. Consider the power of being able to flicker your commander in & out of play, allowing it to re-position targets: Ephemerate is cheap, or Eerie Interlude can protect your creatures from Wrath spells, but both spells can also be fetched with Sunforger, which improves your deck synergy.
Odric, Master Tactician looks good on paper, but he's much better when a deck is built around him. Here are 4 better options:
- Brutal Hordechief. Since you run no wraths, this is damn good.
- Triumph of the Hordes: Game finisher!!
- Glory -protection allows your creatures to connect, and you can survive wrath cards.
- Filth + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth gets unblockable creatures. If you go this route, replace Warrior's Oath with Crop Rotation.
2 months ago
Thanks for the suggestion seshiro_of_the_orochi, not sure who to replace for Brutal Hordechief, i'm quite fond of having those LOTR style trolls with orcs and goblins. Looking at Brutal Hordechief makes me wish the LOTR set had a troll drummer.
2 months ago
Really cool tribal list. This looks like it really wants Brutal Hordechief as a finisher.
nuperokaso on Demons
3 months ago
Flame Slash is a good cheap removal.
Maskwood Nexus is horribly slow card. You don't have any good reason to play it.
Brutal Hordechief this card is best in a token deck, which is not your case.
3 months ago
Welcome to Tappedout and to Isshin brewing. In looking at your list I have some thoughts and potential suggestions. A few quick questions: Do you have a budget per card or total budget in mind? Is there a particular avenue of Isshin that you have in mind, I see that you mentioned multi-combats.
Your deck generally looks solid, but I think you creatures are what could use the most focus in terms of swaps. Stuff like Heliod, Megatron, Hooded Blightfang, Raiyuu, and Academy Manufactor are good, but don't fit this deck super well.
If you like Hooded Blightfang, I'd recommend adding some deathtouch anthems like Vault of the Archangel, Ankle Shanker, and/or Kaya, Geist Hunter to really take advantage of its ability. Otherwise, I think you could remove it.
If you like that GroupSlug style of play like Hooded Blightfang, I'd recommend checking out other stuff like Hellrider, Brutal Hordechief, Vicious Conquistador, or Infectious Horror, which aren't as narrow in focus to pull off like Blightfang.
I think you could probably swap Feed the Swarm for something like Dismantling Wave, Anguished Unmaking, or Vanishing Verse. Mardu has more options for enchantment removal than other color combos with Black in them where Feed the Swarm is one of their few options.
Lastly, these are not budget friendly, but are generally good cards for any Isshin strat. I'd recommend checking out Dolmen Gate, which will be getting another reprint in The List pretty soon when the LotR set drops, and Reconnaissance, which is like a pseudo-Vigilance anthem that can save your creatures from combat. This article details how Reconnaissance works a bit more.
I hope these suggestions are helpful. I've had a lot fun playing Isshin for the past year, and I hope you do too.
4 months ago
If you need more draw, I'd recommend the following:
Chivalric Alliance - A newer option, not quite budget tho.
Breena, the Demagogue is a house & can get huge since your opponents may let her stick around to benefit. She's helped me win a few games recently. In both games she got to 20+ power
Firemane Commando - Bootleg Breena.
Karazikar, the Eye Tyrant can get your hand full after one turn rotation. Helps deflect attacks.
I think you're on the right track with your cuts. Exalted is challenging to pull off since you're stuck attacking 1 opponent at a time. Going wide with tokens can let you hit the table
7 months ago
Hi there! I thought I'd try my best to answer the questions you left for me on my wall. I mostly play the "typical" 4-person EDH pod, with the occasional 5 person game here or there. All of my decks are built with a multi-player setting in mind. To answer your other questions as best as possible:
1 - What is my win rate with Isshin? - This is something I haven't kept close track of, unfortunately. In the past year, I've played at least 20 games with the deck, so I'd have a rough guess that it's won about 25% of the games it has played, and threatened wins another 15-20% of the time, but couldn't quite close it out for one reason or another. My primer has some game logs in the long list of updates if you want to try to read through those. I tried to capture the summary of some of my more memorable games, win or lose.
2 - How do you win with Isshin in multiplayer? - Damage, whether combat or group slug/drain damage. Any aggro or damage based strategy has to find a way to pump out at least 120 damage over the course of a game, or capitalize on openings made by other decks in peoples' defenses. My Isshin deck wins by making swarms of tokens, and antheming them up with Battle Cry, Melee, or some other static power/toughness boost. The times I've won with combat damage, was typically off the back of Iroas, God of Victory because I had a board that could swing away and was hard to block. This is why I also have the damage effects of Purphoros, God of the Forge, Mishra, Claimed by Gix Meld, Commissar Severina Raine, Impact Tremors, and Brutal Hordechief. The group damage and combat damage help each other out. They both soften up your opponents and help make each other more viable. These damage effects also help you get "around" blockers.
"So what do I do? Lean more into group slug, i.e. put in Impact Tremors? Lean away from wipes and focus on ramp and draw? More protection for my creatures?"
These are all generally good ideas. Adding in more ramp and draw can help your deck with consistency, especially for staying gassed up in the mid-late game. While board wipes are helpful, I've found that sometimes it can get annoying to reset the game too many times. At some point someone has to win, and wiping the board 3+ times in a single game can make it tedious instead.
3 - "Is it mean/distasteful to eliminate the player that is the biggest threat, then finish off everyone else? Am I a bully?*" - Personally, I don't think so. I guess it depends on how well you know the people you are playing with. If the "threat" you eliminated has a deck that consistently pops off if it isn't dealt with, then I don't think it's wrong for them to sit one out. I've been a similar position numerous times with Isshin where I'll eliminate the player that might be the biggest threat to me specifically or could be the biggest threat to the table. If I become archenemy of that game, then so be it. Being archenemy can be fun, and it can be a compliment. Congrats, your deck is now the Big Bad Scary Thing. This is a game, and someone has to win each match up. Yes, EDH is supposed to be a "casual format", and that means a variety of different things to players, but after all is said and done, someone has to win. Ideally it can be you.
4 - "As the only deck in the meta with a robust removal suite..." - I will address the rest of the statement you left, but woof, it sounds like the group you played with this time around was maybe very casual? I found that when some of my friends first started playing EDH, they didn't run a whole lot of removal, often to their own detriment. As one friend and I like to echo, "removal wins games". I think you were correct in removing the Ghired's Anointed Procession, but left their other enchantment alone so they could have fun. Ideally, you shouldn't have to be the "Removal Police" and manage every threat you have the capability to. I typically use my removal to A) Address threats most pressing to me B) Address threats that are most detrimental to the table, but will buy me some good will and time to build afterwards. You can utilize removal for achieving parity as you see fit. In terms of this being a good strategy, I think a better question is more about was a fun game environment created? Being "Removal Police" is fun for some and not as much for others. Eventually, everyone else around the table might have to reconsider running more removal to stay relevant and interactive in games, if that's the type of play they want.
5 - "Board wipes made our games longer" - Going back to what I said a couple paragraphs up "While board wipes are helpful, I've found that sometimes it can get annoying to reset the game too many times" - I personally run 2 wipe effects in each deck. Most of my removal is single target, or can hit multiple things, but isn't quite a board wipe (Wear / Tear, Dismantling Wave, Grasp of Fate, Ashes to Ashes, or Druid of Purification). This is all personal choice though.
5.1 "How do I recover more quickly after a board wipe than my opponents? Do I need more card draw? Do I need more protection to keep my creatures around? " - Card draw is always more helpful. Upping the amount of card draw is typically helpful. The tricky part is tuning the type of draw utilized and finding the balance that feels right for you. For me I have about 14 effects in my deck that can draw cards in either cantrip single instances, in multi-card bursts, or in consistent but slow manners. It takes plenty of playing to see what feels right for you. I also run about 11 different effects that protect my board. I've found that Flawless Maneuver and Teferi's Protection have saved my board and kept them in tact enough to maintain momentum the times I've successfully pulled them off. Clever Concealment is a new option that is especially good in token decks. Scapegoat is another cool and cheap option for token decks, and also lets you redeploy your board strategically. I also keep my overall average CMC of my deck as low as I can, so in the event that I don't have a protection effect, but have drawn into plenty of material, I can play cheaply costed creatures and removal/interaction/protection while everyone else is still rebuilding.
5.2 "when is the right time in an aggro deck to play a board wipe?" - This requires more nuance and playing IRL to determine what feels right to you. I typically board wipe when someone else is building a bigger board than me, and is out-pacing me in that regard, but I have things in hand to quickly rebuild with afterwards, or have a protection effect to spare my board from my own wipe. It also depends on the types of wipes you are playing. White has a ton of options such as Promise of Loyalty, Slaughter the Strong, Retribution of the Meek, Vanquish the Horde, Farewell, Austere Command, and By Invitation Only to name a few. I've found it can be helpful to maybe have 1 wipe that is somewhat asymmetric, usually by presenting each player a choice on what they get to keep. This is a double edged sword since.... people get a choice on what they get to keep. While this may not solve the threat you were looking to eliminate, this may at least make things more manageable. I know Ruinous Ultimatum is a popular option because of how one-sided it is, but the restrictiveness of the mana cost can be annoying. Isshin doesn't necessarily win in 1 big flashy play that seemingly comes out of nowhere, like a combo deck might, but does build up a board presence and aggro momentum over a few turns. If you can continue to build and maintain a momentum, and add in more damage modifiers or Impact Tremors effects, it may then open up the opportunity for a big alpha strike turn, or a turn where you make a bunch of tokens with krenko tin street king pin because it stuck around long enough and you also have Impact Tremors and/or Hellrider and will either make a metric ton of goblins when Krenko swings, or you already have a metric ton of goblins to swing with for Hellrider.
Ultimately this is about finding what is most fun and engaging for you to play, and balancing that out with what is fun for your group. Unfortunately, not everyone has the same definition of fun. Some people will think its unfun or boring to get token swarmed or killed with Impact Tremors, and that's okay.
Definitely add more draw and ramp. Cut down your mana curve and on splashy, but inconsistent effects where possible.
Running robust removal and interaction is helpful, but don't think you have to be "threat/parity police" because of it. Other people can choose to step up their removal/interaction suites too. Less board-wipes can be a good thing.
A variety of board protection effects will help you maintain the momentum you are building. A lower mana curve helps you go into aggro mode faster, and hopefully rebuild more quickly after wipes. Ideally, this also helps leave a little mana leftover for your Clever Concealments, Boros Charms, and other protection effects.
Group Slug and combat damage help each other out and make each other more viable. You are trying to land 120 damage around the table to take out 3 other players, so ideally you should maximize your damage output and find what works best for you, and what is most fun and dynamic for you.
Best of luck and hope you continue to have fun playing this awesome commander.