Abzan Graveyard Recursion Help
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on Sept. 26, 2022, 11:03 p.m. by BishopAtavist
I think I need some more experienced minds to point me in the right direction with my Nethroi deck: Things That Are Not.
I thought I was in a decent spot with it, but then I got my ass handed to me 4 games in a row playing with some more experienced friends. My deck was just too slow to get things off the ground.
I determined that I needed to add in some Dredge and Self-Milling to sped up filling the graveyard. My biggest worry with those mechanics and strategies (which is why I avoided them until now) is that I can only recur creatures with Nethroi, not artifacts, enchantments, sorceries, etc.
My current strategy is to use Fauna Shaman and Golgari Grave-Troll to empty my library into the graveyard each turn. This has seemed to be pretty effective in playtesting, but the potentially issue is that I'm never actually drawing any new, non-creature cards.
I can use Eternal Witness to grab a card from the Yard or Bala Ged Recovery  Flip and I've thought about fitting in Glissa, the Traitor to pull some of the artifacts back out. but what else might you suggest? Would Magus of the Will be a decent option for this? Maybe Creeping Renaissance for Enchantments at least?
What would you cut to add these?
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #3
Oh, I forgot to mention Gravebreaker Lamia. It's pretty slow, but it's a graveyard tutor on a body, so you you won't have issues recurring it. Another fine card is Oriq Loremage, but then again, it'd be another human, which can become a problem with any mutate commander.
September 27, 2022 12:31 a.m.
TheOfficialCreator says... #4
Another good graveyard non-Human card is Splinterfright. Nyx Weaver is a similar card.
September 27, 2022 9:01 a.m.
BishopAtavist says... #5
seshiro_of_the_orochi I completely forgot that Shigeki, Jukai Visionary had that ability! I'll definitely be slotting him in. Spring-Leaf Avenger seems like a really cool card too! I am already running Gravebreaker Lamia and she's been great in the deck. I have a Skullwinder or two that I picked up in a Baldur's gate draft. I've only hesitated with that one because I don't like giving my opponents their choice of cards as well. I guess I could always save it until I lay down a Bojuka Bog though haha
TheOfficialCreator, I am currently trying to figure out what to cut to slot in Nyx Weaver. Refining deck lists is definitely the hardest part of deck building.
These are all super helpful suggestions. Thank you all!
September 27, 2022 11:19 a.m.
multimedia says... #6
Sun Titan is a good budget value creature for repeatable reanimation of permanents. Pair Titan with Apprentice Necromancer, but only on your turn because you have to attack with Titan. For only one the combo reanimates Titan with Necromancer, Titan reanimates Necromancer and attack with Titan because it has haste to reanimate any other 3 CMC or less permanent. Titan dies in combat or at your end step and repeat the combo on your next turn. With a sac outlet such as Viscera Seer you could repeatedly reanimate Eternal Witness to recur any card.
Golgari Thug is more dredge and it's only a two drop for sac fodder. It interacts well with draw spells that make you sac a creature to cast the spell: Deadly Dispute, Village Rites, etc. First draw the creature you put on top of your library from Thug die trigger and second draw replace it to dredge or vice versa.
Golgari Thug + Eternal Witness + Deadly Dispute can be lots of repeatable value.
September 27, 2022 6:17 p.m.
multimedia says... #7
Body Launderer is a good budget creature for repeatable loot (connive) as well as creature reanimation. It's reanimation can be a combo to loot as much of your hand/library as you want.
If you add Zulaport Cutthroat or another aristocrat like it then you make all your opponents lose life equal to the amount of cards in your library.
This is a wincon all creature combo that Nethroi can reanimate it all. Artist has 0 power too, but any other aristocrat like it could replace it. Nethroi can reanimate all of it including more such as Selfless Spirit or Dauntless Escort for some combo protection for Artist and Seer.
September 27, 2022 7:38 p.m.
BishopAtavist says... #8
multimedia man, everybody is showing up with great suggestions. I'm definitely adding Body Launderer to my long list. Viscera Seer would be a great sac outlet and Blood Artist having 0 power is well worth considering. Thanks so much for the suggestions!
September 27, 2022 7:51 p.m.
bushido_man96 says... #9
Lots of good suggestions above. I'd consider cleaning up some of your card draw options. Dawn of Hope seems to mana-intensive and relies on life-gain. Pact Weapon doesn't seem like reliable card draw, either. For 4 mana, you could play something like Ambition's Cost that will guarantee you 3 cards on the spot. In a deck like this where you want to fill the graveyard with creatures, cards like Recycle and Null Profusion can really fill up the graveyard.
I play a Kathril deck that likes to have creatures in the graveyard, too. I run some cards that help mill, and I also run sac outlets to get creatures I play into the graveyard. You've got one nice sac-draw outlet, and I'd consider running a few more. Plumb the Forbidden is a good one, letting you hit multiple targets. Village Rites is also solid. Greater Good draws you card and gives you selection to fill up the graveyard, too.
I see a smattering of a life-gain subtheme to the deck. Personally, I'd cut that entirely. Some incidental life-gain is nice, but I think the cards you have here aren't doing anything but pulling you away from what your deck wants to do.
Also, Nethroi triggers every time it mutates. Running some more mutate cards could be helpful.
I hope this was helpful information.
September 27, 2022 8:28 p.m.
multimedia says... #10
One drop mana dorks, most are budget, is good ramp with Nethroi because they can also be a nonHuman creature to mutate.
Avacyn's Pilgrim is a Human, but I would still play it. Mana dorks are also excellent fodder for Dread Return flashback. If you were to play these green one drop mana dorks then you would want to adjust your deck's budget manabase to make it easier to make green mana turn one. Llanowar Wastes, Exotic Orchard, Necroblossom Snarl and more basic Forests. I honestly think it's worth adjusting the manabase to play these mana dorks.
Llanowar Mentor can repeatedly create a Elf mana dork for ramp or fodder by discarding a dredge card or any other creature to help to setup Nethroi. Having other discard outlets for dredge cards is important to keep being able to dredge. Fauna Shaman is great, but can't count on always having Fauna.
September 27, 2022 8:32 p.m.
BishopAtavist says... #11
bushido_man96 I was on the fence about Dawn of Hope, and Pact Weapon has been in and out of this deck. I think replacing both of those with something better is a good call. I envisioned Pact Weapon being equipped to Nethroi, negating any of the life-loss from the card draw with his Lifelink.
That is an interesting perspective about cutting the lifegain sub-theme entirely. Gray Merchant of Asphodel was in the original build and I had/have a pretty decent devotion to black. So I added Sanguine Bond to capitalize on that. But I could definitely be open to replacing those cards with some more exciting creatures at lower CMC if you think that would be wise?
multimedia I had Llanowar Elves in the deck, but I decided to pull the mana dorks in favor of cards that put lands (which are harder to remove) onto the battlefield. Like Sakura-Tribe Elder. I will definitely consider Llanowar Mentor though! Creating multiple token mana dorks and being an additional discard outlet for dredge cards seems like a no brainer. Llanowar Wastes and Necroblossom Snarl also seem like good adds! I had considered adding more green sources since most of my ideal early card plays (Fauna Shaman, Ramunap Excavator, and Dryad of the Ilysian Grove) require green mana.
Thanks again for those suggestions!
September 27, 2022 9:54 p.m.
multimedia says... #12
I agree with bushido_man96, consider cutting the life gaining strategy?
You're not comboing with Sanguine Bond and it's a higher mana cost card that's not a creature. Gray Merchant of Asphodel does much less if you're not using it in a combo as the wincon. Dawn of Hope is good repeatable draw when your Commander has lifelink, but attacking with Nethroi shouldn't be priority since you're really playing it for it's 7 mana mutate reanimation not to consistently attacking.
Drizzt Do'Urden and Demon of Loathing are subpar. Yannik, Scavenging Sentinel is another creature who can combo with Karmic Guide and a sac outlet for another all creature wincon combo that Nethroi can reanimate.
Yannik, Scavenging Sentinel + Karmic Guide + Viscera Seer + Blood Artist.
September 27, 2022 11:07 p.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #13
Reveillark is a good creature for reanimation shenanigans too. With a sacrifice outlet Lark and Guide return al creatures power 2 or less from your graveyard. With Saffi you can use Saffi to recur Lark and then use Lark to recur Saffi and Guide allowing you to reanimate your entire graveyard if you don't want to go for the infinite drain but still want to do busted stuff.
Looking at your list, Crop Rotation is an undoubtably strong card, but I am a little confused as to what your tutor target is since it isn't ramp without a Gaea's Cradle and I don't see any powerful utility lands.
September 27, 2022 11:37 p.m.
bushido_man96 says... #14
Why are you running Zuran Orb, Ramunap Excavator, and World Shaper? This is a suite of cards that does nothing for your strategy, either. Three more spots to add suggestions above!
September 27, 2022 11:55 p.m.
BishopAtavist says... #15
Gidgetimer that is a fair question about Crop Rotation. At this point, it's there more for future upgrades. I was possibly going to pop a Cabal Coffers in the deck, since with Dryad of the Ilysian Grove on the field, every land would be a swamp. Now I would essentially just use it to swap a basic land for a dual or tri-land. Not it's highest function, but not the worst thing.
bushido_man96 I actually find that Ramunap Excavator works really well when I'm Dredging cards into the graveyard and skipping a draw step. Pretty much guarantees I don't miss a land drop, which is pretty critical when I'm trying to cast my commander for 7 (mutating). If Fauna Shaman is in my opening hand, the first card I grab is Golgari Grave-Troll then Ramunap, then Dryad. Ramunap and dryad let me pull 2 cards from the graveyard per turn, and the Grave troll's Dredge ability statistically puts just over 2 land cards in there each turn.
World Shaper is a backup to getting lands back from my graveyard, and he also fills the graveyard by milling three each time he attacks. I don't think that is at cross purposes with my goal. Zuran Orb I can see getting cut if I end up cutting Sanguine Bond. It isn't in my paper deck yet, but I thought Zuran Orb, World Shaper, and Sanguine Bond could make a pretty funny combo.
September 28, 2022 12:10 a.m.
BishopAtavist says... #16
multimedia it does seem a shame not to attack with a deathtouch, Lifelink creature though haha I think you've sold me on Karmic Guide. Looks like I'll probably be cutting Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Sanguine Bond, Athreos, Shroud-Veiled (since I'm getting rid of a lot of high devotion cards and I have rarely used his coin counter ability like I hoped to), and Sangromancer if not Demon of Loathing, which was kind of a pet card. is a 7/7 creature with flying and trample that makes opponent sac a creature really subpar?
September 28, 2022 12:21 a.m.
multimedia says... #17
Good choice of adding Karmic Guide. Demon of Loathing needs haste meaning Boots. It's drawback which makes it subpar is it has to attack and do combat damage to a player to trigger. It only makes one player sac a creature which is less good in multiplayer Commander for 7 mana.
Plaguecrafter is a better effect in multiplayer Commander for making a player sac a creature because all players have to sac a creature, or if not then a Planeswalker or if not then discard a card.
We understand what Zuran Orb, Ramunap Excavator and World Shaper are for, but the question is do you need them? Out of these three Ramunap Excavator gives the most support. The others are fine cards in another deck, they could be cut for more repeatable self-mill to improve gameplay with Nethroi.
September 28, 2022 1:16 a.m. Edited.
BishopAtavist says... #18
Well, I cut Zuran Orb, World Shaper, Sanguine Bond, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Dawn of Hope, and Demon of Loathing, in favor of Plaguecrafter, Body Launderer, Karmic Guide, Viscera Seer, Blood Artist, and another dredge card. Llanowar Mentor is in there as well, but I don't remember what I cut to slot him in. Still not sold on him since he's kind of a dead card if I don't get him early in the game.
I need to get over the "competitive scale". I know my deck works better with these changes, but the competitive scale doesn't quite agree. Oh well haha
Thanks again for all these very thoughtful suggestions. I had to kill some darlings, but so it goes.
September 28, 2022 10:02 a.m.
BishopAtavist says... #19
multimedia in regards to Demon of Loathing would you say that Bane of Bala Ged is equally subpar? It doesn't need to do combat damage, but it does need to attack, the pay off is that it exiles two permanents instead of just sac'ing one creature.
September 28, 2022 10:22 a.m.
multimedia says... #20
Good choices for cuts and adds.
Unfortunately, don't use the scale here to gauge competitiveness of your deck. It's crap, doesn't work well and it's better to just ignore it, turn it off in the editor. Trust me and everyone else who's helping you here in the comments. Your deck is improving, becoming more competitive with each change.
Yes, Bane of Bala Ged is better than Demon of Loathing, but it has similar drawback since it's also 7 mana and has to attack to trigger. Creatures like Bane and Demon are better in colors that have lots of haste enablers. On a budget Abzan doesn't have them therefore if you're going to play high mana cost creatures they should have an ETB ability or provide value another way. Sun Titan is an example, it's 6 mana, but in my opinion it's better than Bane and Demon since it could reanimate something when it ETB and it can be a combo piece.
I'm not saying to not play creatures who don't do anything the turn they ETB, but those creatures should be lower mana cost, not higher mana cost. Low mana cost to potentially play one and something else that same turn or play one and leave up mana for instant interaction with your opponents. Fauna Shaman is a good example, it can't tap the same turn you play it, but it's a 2 drop not a 7 drop. It's possible that Body Launderer won't do anything the same turn it ETB, but it's 4 drop as well as being a combo piece. These are big differences than a 7 drop.
Currently, your only option is to mutate Nethroi at sorcery speed on your turn thus the creatures you reanimate should give you value or combine to win the game that same turn. You don't want to rely on having those creatures on your next turn, reanimating creatures who don't do anything until they can attack could just waste Nethroi mutate. An opponent may just cast a board wipe and destroy all your creatures potentially not getting much from mutate.
There are effects in Abzan that are like haste such as flash or reanimating at instant speed. An effect that gives flash to a creature would let you cast/mutate Nethroi on an opponent's turn. Doing this lets all creatures you reanimated then attack on your next turn.
- Vivien, Champion of the Wilds: the best option since it's static ability gives flash to all creatures you can cast.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald: only really useful to flash mutate Nethroi, but it's a creature.
- Savage Summoning
When you're playing so many creatures giving them flash can be very useful and also powerful. More instant creature reanimation goes with the strategy of self-mill, consistent creatures in graveyard. You're playing Doomed Necromancer, it and Apprentice Necromancer if they can tap can reanimate on an opponent's turn.
September 28, 2022 8:33 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #21
In the current deck the problem with running Crop Rotation to sac a basic for a dual/tri land is that you don't run many untapped ones. This makes that move incredibly slow. You are tapping a mana to get a tapped land and not going up on land count. Even if you had more untapped duals it would be pretty slow just fixing off of it. Something like Utopia Sprawl would be way better until you get the Coffers.
The more I think about it the more I am convinced that this deck in it's current state is not a deck that wants to dredge. There are not nearly enough additional draws to stay relevant while filling the yard. I think this might be a deck that wants Mesmeric Orb. The good cards that let you tutor it are monetarily expensive, but it might be worth checking out a build with some number of Diabolic Tutor, Mastermind's Acquisition, a Fortnight Grim Tutor (actually a good card, but eww Fortnight), or Varragoth, Bloodsky Sire and the Orb. Then you could focus on ramping into the commander and passively mill while still being able to draw. The downside is that if your friends also run graveyard strategies you are feeding them.
On the subject of ramp, I think you could easily cut 3 lands to slot in 1 MV dorks. You are limited to 1 land a turn, but could play any number of ramp that you can pay for. The ones mentioned above are good and if you are wanting a source to fix black Elves of Deep Shadow is also available.
September 28, 2022 8:42 p.m.
BishopAtavist says... #22
Gidgetimer I very much appreciate the attention and in-depth feedback you and multimedia have been giving this deck. This is my first deck, I started building it back in June. I will eventually slot in non-tap duals, but I'm on a fairly restrictive budget and don't have a large personal card pool to pull from yet.
I 100% agree about Crop Rotation. In this stage of the deck, it's doing nothing for me. I'm not sure I agree about it not being a dredge deck (yet). It's hard to know right now, but when I do get my Fauna Shaman Golgari Grave-Troll engine running, it feels pretty good. Fauna Shaman can tutor for Eternal Witness and Shigeki, Jukai Visionary and allow me to pull cards back from the yard, it might be a little slower than a cantrip, but the number of cards I have my pick from is much better than just peeling off the top of the deck.
Back to budget, I probably can't swing for Mesmeric Orb right now. I also eventually plan to swap out Diabolic Tutor for Vampiric Tutor, but I'm building at the speed of cash. I like Varragoth, Bloodsky Sire though and might be able to find a spot for that! I like that it also has the option to be used diplomatically if someone else has an answer to a bigger threat at the table.
I see the potential for mana dorks and I'm particularly keen on Elves of Deep Shadow. As far as one land per turn, If I get my Fauna Shaman engine going, I can be playing two lands per turn as early as turn 4. Of course, it's nice to have backup since getting the ideal opening hand and first two draws is very low.
multimedia there's a lot of good information in your post as well. Sun Titan seems really promising and a flash enabler would be great here too. I'll keep working this over in my mind and see what make sense!
September 28, 2022 9:35 p.m.
BishopAtavist says... #23
I ended up cutting Crop Rotation for Songs of the Damned for a more explosive one time effect. Also, multimedia your comment about haste got me thinking and I discovered Mogis's Marauder which would make for an insane recursion event with Nethroi or with Living Death. Thanks again for all the feedback!
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #2
Loosing non-creatures is a usual topic with these strategies. One way around it is to play as few of those card as possible. As you're asking for recursion ideas, Timeless Witness is basically a second E-Wit, and Skullwinder is also not far off. A card I really like is Spring-Leaf Avenger, and bouncing an attacking Nethroi to mutate out again seems pretty useful. What's more, how about Shigeki, Jukai Visionary? He seems to do everything you wish for, and he even has a power small enough so you can abuse him with Nethroi.
September 27, 2022 12:25 a.m.