Creature — Cleric
You may play land cards from your graveyard.
|Have (6)||, LittleMy , Auriel , mymanpotsandpans , JuneBlue58 , sepheroth119|
|Want (7)||mousehunt1993 , Cool_Cat , jw560211_magic , Destrogeist , popesnarkyiii , Poop_Killer , Dralnah|
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|Commander / EDH||Legal|
|Commander: Rule 0||Legal|
Latest Decks as Commander
Ramunap Excavator Discussion
5 days ago
As long as it's not on the stack, Modal Dual-Faced Cards have only the qualities of the front face of the card. You can't discard Song-Mad Treachery as a land.
Likewise, you wouldn't return it from the graveyard to the battlefield with Splendid Reclamation, as it isn't a land card. But you can play it as a land from your graveyard with Ramunap Excavator, as it doesn't specify "land cards" in its oracle text.
1 month ago
jaymc1130: I think the easiest way to address your comment is directly.
"There are about a dozen players in the entire world who can play that game at a truly competitive level out of the 100s of thousands that play."
I would say that this comment pretty adequtely sums up the point you're trying to make in paragraph one. The biggest flaw I see here is that you're basically claiming that there's so few "actual" cEDH players that it boils down to you and your playgroup. And sure, if that's the premise of your position, then I can't challenge that argument as I'm sure the card has made a big splash in your playgroup. But the problem you now have is sample size. If your definition of the meta is only the players you deem as "competitive" then you your data is going to be massively skewed, regardless of how good your combo is.
Your second point around Strip Mine being the dominant meta deck falls into the exact issue as I raised in the previous paragraph. And while I'll admit that I'm not 100% up to date with every little thing with regards to cEDH, I have seen little to no Strip Mine/Azusa, Lost but Seeking across the greater decklists I have seen. And I am by no means calling myself the be-all and end-all of cEDH (by a large margin) however if it was such a dominant stragety you'd think it would be much more heavily played.
I understand that the combo can have plenty of resilience if you add more cards, however your original post never talked about Trade Routes. Using it as an argument now does indeed increase the redundancy in your deck, but at the cost of card slots. Similaryly I could put together a commander deck that had 10-15 points of redundancy, but at the cost of the vast majority of card slots. Additonally, the point I made around lynch pins with Squandered Resources was in direct refernce to your deck T&T Bloom Scepter [cEDH Primer] which runs neither Crucible of Worlds or Trade Routes and which was updated 1 day ago so I would assume is up to date.
"All people look at is what channels like PwP or LM do on youtube and think that stuff is competitive in nature. It is not. Those are exclusively amateur players playing in a mostly amateur fashion. In fact, from a level of gameplay perspective, most of their videos are unwatchable because the level of play is just plain terrible."
First off, I will preface this by saying that I occasionally watch these videos and by not means am drawing on them as my sole inspiration for deckbuilding. I will state however that for the vast majority of players, this is what they consider cEDH, along with Labmaniacs and a few others. And while you can poo-poo this all you like, we then come back to the "sample size" argument.
My issue though with your spruiking of the combo comes down to adoption rate. While you did make the comment that "the cEDH community is glacially slow to adapt and learn new things", cards like Thassa's Oracle were immediately adopted by the community as a whole which somewhat disproves this. Even cards like Codie, Vociferous Codex are being heavily played now as very strong commanders. And again, while I have said before and will happily say again that I do think your combo is a good combo package, I would challenge your insinuation that the only reason the entirity of the cEDH community isn't playing it is becuase they're all just slow (insert ItsTheChildrenThatAreWrong.gif).
As a side note, and this is entirely personal advice - take it how you want, I think that part of the reason you're having certain issues with people taking your deck seriously comes down to perceived attitude. I have seen you on tapped out for well over a year spruiking this strategy of yours, however the problem I see is that A) you cosntatly talk about the combo package with little to no explanation about how it works (or even a reference to a deck which explains it) and B) have a habit of talking down to people who disagree with your opinion.
On the point of A - I understand that there are a lot of moving parts in the combo and I understand that it's an advanced combo to pilot, but you're not winning any friends by attempting to set the bar to entry as "if you don't understand it from the pile of cards then you're not good enough to play it and not worth my time". I'm not saying that this is your intention, however I have read multiple posts on multiple threads from you about this and this is the vibe that I pick up repeatedly. And I'm not saying that you have to be on the other end of the spectrum either, but you will definitely help change others' opinions about the strategy if you first help them to understand it and the many layers it has.
On the point of B (which I have kind of covered above) - coming at every discussion about the strategy with an air of arrogance is generally going to drive people away, not make them eager to learn more. As for your professional MtG prowess, I understand the importance of anonymity on the internet, however the double edged sword is that people talk a lot of crap on the internet that may or may not be true. And while I don't want you to think that I'm straight up calling you a liar, I'm sure you can understand that many people take others' comments with a grain of salt, lest be continously deceived. It might also be the Australian in me but generally here people who talk themselves up repeatedly get called a lot of four letter words.
Edit for clarity - In general I don't think that there's an issue with your interactions on other places on the site and I have even seen you leave a lot of helpful advice for others. I am referring specifically to conversations around this particular topic of discussion.
As for the MLB thing, I did not know that at all, but that's pretty cool. I'm personally not a baseball fan (it's not big here) but I have met quite a few athletes in my day who performed at the kind of level you're talking about in other sports, so I know that's a big achievement.
1 month ago
There's a whole lot wrong with this statement. Most of it simply is not accurate, or fails as it is working from assumptions based on casual/amateur players playing with cEDH decks.
It's like looking at the recent Marchesa tournament and concluding Magda is an overly powerful archetype because of it's win in that tournament. As far as I know, this was not a professional level MtG event, I do not know of a single professional caliber player that attended. It was an amateur event almost exclusively participated in by amateur level players, and the level of competitiveness is very unlikely to be something one could consider "competitive" in a true sense. Now, you know I have a high standard for competitive play coming from a professional level of play myself over my MtG career, so sure, there is some debate that could be had about where that bar should be set, but, quite frankly, as with any sport or game or competition true competitiveness doesn't really begin until you're talking about the top <1% of players in the world. As a multi time world rank 1 player myself of games like Terraforming Mars I can attest to the simple fact that 99% of my games were, and still are not, competitive in nature. There are about a dozen players in the entire world who can play that game at a truly competitive level out of the 100s of thousands that play. Same goes for, say, the MLB (another thing I tried my hand at competitively that you are aware of as it was a professional baseball career that was my primary focus in highschool which lead to my lackluster performances at professional level MtG events during that time span). College level baseball is simply not competitive in a true sense, it's competitive relative the level of skill of the players participating. The same goes for A ball, and AA ball, and even AAA ball. If I'd been capable of true competitive level play you'd be talking to a multi millionaire celebrity as opposed to a card game enthusiast. So that's first and foremost thing that ought to be addressed.
Secondly, the fact you state graveyard recursion of Strip Mine being around for a while and not being a problem exemplifies the aforementioned inability to discern true competitive level concepts from powerful concepts. Strip Mine recursion lists are the absolute most dominant lists in the meta currently, and have been for well over a year. You can ask SynergyBuild if you want another opinion on how effective that particular concept has been. The true competitive meta for most of the last year has been warped by Bloom and Farm decks, with the Bloom Farm decks that combine the archetypes putting up some pretty insane win rates. Strip Mine isn't going to become a problem because of these new cards, Strip Mine has ALREADY BEEN a huge problem in true competitive settings for over a year, and, as usual, the average casual/amateur player hasn't noticed at all. There's a reason a handful of folks like SynergyBuild and myself are constantly 2 years ahead of the meta changes that occur, and you've got all the evidence you need of this fact here, on this site, with a bevy of posts from just the two of us over the years highlighting meta shifts months and years ahead of them actually happening. And we are by no means the only ones on this site, there are a small handful of others as well.
Thirdly, you've failed to understand how resilient the Bloom concept combos have now become if you think the critical weak points are Crucible of Worlds and Ramunap Excavator. Bouncing lands to hand with Trade Routes or Cloudstone Curio forgoes a need for the combo to have access to the yard at all for some very specific loops, and certainly access to playing lands from the yard in the vast majority of them. These are not unique critical points of failure any more, where 2 and 3 years ago they would have been. That portion of the combo has become so robust it is not viable to attack it from that angle, the best bet is to simply exile and remove the Summer Bloom itself as it is the only unique portion of the combo that is now required.
Now, will these things mean the combo starts to become immediately pervasive throughout the meta? No, as stated, the cEDH community is glacially slow to adapt and learn new things. All people look at is what channels like PwP or LM do on youtube and think that stuff is competitive in nature. It is not. Those are exclusively amateur players playing in a mostly amateur fashion. In fact, from a level of gameplay perspective, most of their videos are unwatchable because the level of play is just plain terrible. It's fine to use those places as resources for the most basic of fundamentals, but that's not how the cEDH community uses those resources. The larger community thinks that IS high level play, and the reality of the situation is that it's slightly above average amateur level of play. So no, as stated in the OP of this thread, I don't expect things to change radically, because, historically, change has usually been extremely slow. You can add to this the fact that Dauthi Voidwalker is a very powerful deterrent to the Bloom archetypes because it blanks most of the value portion of the play patterns and should be an auto include in any deck with Black, but it remains to be seen just how impactful this card can be. The Bloom archetypes have been dealing with graveyard hate this entire time and still managing best in format win rate potentials, so I'm personally interested to see if these factors offset, or favor the Voidwalker or Bloom side of the matchup. The biggest problem is that the exact decks best positioned to make use of the Voidwalker are also the same decks currently employing the Bloom combo, the Sultai midrange attrition based shells.
Of the cards that work as a part of this package, I think you've hit the nail on the head with Boseiju being the one perhaps most likely to be banned. There are really only two choices to hit if this package does prove problematic, and it's the Bloom at the center of it all, or Boseiju that cranks up the power a couple of notches. Personally, I don't have enough data about performance yet to lean one way or another in terms of which I'd find more likely to get the hammer, but it almost assuredly would have to be one of these two.
1 month ago
While I can appreciate your enthusiasm for the combo and new cards coming out which work with it (I think most people get excited when new cards come out that are instant upgrades to their deck), I don't think that this will be meta changing and as much as I know you're very proud of your combo, I don't think it's going to have a big impact on EDH above and beyond the standalone impact of Boseiju, Who Endures.
We've had combos like Strip Mine + Crucible of Worlds + Azusa, Lost but Seeking for years and yet this hasn't been flagged as banworthy. And while Boseiju has some untility above being a removal spell, using cards like Assassin's Trophy to form win condition removal loops has also been around for a long time with no issue. So while this is a nice boon for mono-green decks, it's not a game changer.
Additionally, while you get extra utility from having cards which work in the deck outside of combo, the number of card slots you have to devote to making the combo work is still very high - even if you are using your described Squandered Resources lines. Plus even those lines have lynch pin cards, typically in the form of recursion pieces like Crucible of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator - remove these and you've killed the entire bloom line in the deck. Even if the deck can pivot to another combo line (like Dramatic scepter) that would be the case if you'd have included any two mutually exclusive combo lines so the point of the argument is more around combo density than it is around the specific bloom combo.
As I've said in the past, I think it's a very viable combo line and I do like the fact that many cards pull double duty however I just don't think that the combo is going to make waves above and beyond the impact made by Boseiju, Who Endures as a standalone card. And I'm happy to be proved wrong. But compared to cards like Thassa's Oracle (which don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of) which have become such a staple in the cEDH world due to the ease and compactness of the combo, I don't think you're going to draw the ire of the ban hammer. Ultimately though, isn't that a good thing? And if we do see bans due to Boseiju, I would expect that it's Boseiju itself which is more likely to see the ban than any of the other cards listed.
1 month ago
AstroAA Sometimes a silly initial idea can lead to a fundamentally powerful truth. That's part of why our group initially started running the original Bloom Combo in any Sultai shell. There are lots of combos in the game that are very powerful, and evaluating total efficiency in competitive settings can help a player win more games by streamlining deck play patterns through deck construction techniques.
For example, a quick comparison of some of the combos we've discussed so far, Bloom Combo, Dramatic Scepter Combo, and Thoracle Consult Combo.
Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation requires 2 card slots in a deck to be able to produce a win with a total mana investment of . It's not just compact in mana investment and card slots, it's also stack compact, requiring just the Oracle trigger, holding priority, and the Consult naming a card not in the deck. All of these factors combine to make it extremely efficient at the job it does and this comes with the trade off of extremely high risk to go with such an efficient maximum reward. If your attempt gets stuffed at the point where you exile your deck but your Oracle trigger doesn't resolve successfully then you get to enjoy perhaps a turn cycle before dying immediately on your next upkeep. Extreme efficiency with the trade off of some knuckle whitening risk. It makes this a great combo to employ at a moment's notice in situations where you can fit it in while opponents didn't leave themselves with enough resources to defend against the line of play, but not usually ideal being used into the full grip and untapped mana bases of opponents ready to interact and the two cards won't generate much value while waiting for the opportune moment as they sit in hand.
Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal is a 2 card combo that generates infinite untaps of nonland permanents with a minimum of 1 additional card that itself is a nonland mana producing permanent (ie, Sol Ring). The loop can become mana positive with certain cards or combinations of cards (Mana Vault, or Arcane Signet+Sol Ring). And that infinite mana can be used with some sort of outlet card to produce a win. So it's a combo that at a minimum will require 4 cards to produce a win, though more often 5 or 6. The mana investment is to play and activate, which is more efficient than the number of card slots that will need to be dedicated to it. It's a combo with components that will have at least some value over time before the combo is activated outright since those dorks and rocks can probably cast another spell, so it has some natural play pattern efficiency. If stuffed, there's a pretty decent chance of losing access to this combo in the future. If the Scepter is destroyed in response to it's first activation, for example, you'll be out the exiled Dramatic Reversal from the imprint even if you can get the Scepter back into play later on. So still maximum reward potential, but less impactful risk to go with the slightly less efficient overall set up since you won't lose if stuffed. It's a combo that can be played pretty easily into opponents ready to defend since it will generate mana to interact with them after starting it's loop and the mana investment on your end is pretty low, but an easy one to interact with for opponents so it's liable to be one they stuff if thrown out wily nilly.
Summer Bloom + Mystic Sanctuary + Waterlogged Grove + Squandered Resources + Ramunap Excavator + Noxious Revival + green land is 7 pieces in total, but one is only needed as the "outlet" (Noxious Revival to loop the deck) and another can be essentially any random land that might be lying around to bring the core down to those 5 unique cards. With the initial 6 cards in place and Revival in the deck the initial mana investment can be as low as to begin the line of play by casting the Summer Bloom. If some of the other pieces aren't in play then the initial investment cost isn't quite so shockingly efficient, but the combo is still solid in terms of card slot and mana investment efficiency when not wowing. Not much risk if the attempt is stuffed, and there's a decent chance you can just try again by saccing the Sanctuary and replaying it to get the Summer Bloom back if countered for example, but the same maximum potential reward of winning the game. Most of the pieces of the combo are value components themselves so they fit naturally into most board state development play patterns allowing you to both spend resources reacting to opponents and amass resources in play and in hand when they don't present serious threats. By far the most conservative of these 3 combos, but far more flexible in it's approach while minimizing potential risks to lose the game.
1 month ago
So I was reading a post by jaymc1130 (found here) where he talks about Summer Bloom combos, and as someone who runs a Titania, Protector of Argoth land combo deck, I got to thinking on how I could somehow try to incorporate a combo where lands can infinitely ETB and LTB. So, I got to thinking on how I could possibly abuse Summer Bloom to accomplish this. After a couple iterations, I finally settled on this monstrosity:
I decided to use a flow chart maker to try and illustrate the method to my madness. I tried to group each card with similar variations that could be acceptable substitutes. For example, on the left side with Crucible of Worlds, Ramunap Excavator, and Ancient Greenwarden you could use any one of those three to accomplish the task that needs to be performed - that being playing lands from the graveyard to play. Likewise on the right side of the picture, the group of five cards I view as methods to try and protect the combo. The arrows point towards what the previous card uses; like Aluren points to Eternal Witness which points to Summer Bloom which points to the Forests, etc.
You could also use Cloudstone Curio to bounce the Eternal Witness, but I feel like Cloudstone Curio combos are cheating. Disregard that little top right corner because I realized after I made it that little corner in it of itself generates infinite mana really easily with Aluren and Concordant Crossroads. Oh well. I also should've moved Lotus Cobra to where the Vernal Bloom and Heartbeat of Spring is, but I digress.
If you want an explanation on how the combo works, I'll put an accordion block with it here. That way you can try and figure it out for yourself if you want.
At a minimum, the combo follows as such:
- 1. Cast Summer Bloom, playing three additional Forests. With Lotus Cobra out, you have six mana floating, (three from Cobra, three from the forests).
- 2. Cast Eternal Witness for free with Aluren, recurring the Summer Bloom
- 3. Sacrifice the forests to Zuran Orb.
- 4. Cast Summer Bloom, going down to four mana floating, and playing the three forests from your graveyard to the battlefield netting an additional six mana for a total of 10 floating mana.
- 5. Bounce the Eternal Witness with Temur Sabertooth, going down to 8 floating mana.
- 6. Cast Eternal Witness for free with Aluren, recurring the Summer Bloom.
- 7. Sacrifice the forests to Zuran Orb
- 8. Cast Summer Bloom, going down to 6 floating mana, and playing the three forests from your graveyard to the battlefield netting an additional six mana for a total of 12 mana.
- 9. Repeat from step 5.
Holy shit. Now that I think about it, you might not need Aluren. You could theoretically just do it with Eternal Witness, but I'm not going to work through that math. When I did it with my head, you netted two mana every time because of the cost of Summer Bloom and Temur Sabertooth's ability. Feel free to yell at me or correct me in the comments. I am very bad at math.
So yeah. This is definitely a mess and probably unfeasible to pull off in games, but I had fun coming up with it regardless.
Do you all know of any convoluted combos like this? I'm quite interested in seeing them!