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Legality
| Format | Legality |
| 1v1 Commander | Legal |
| Archenemy | Legal |
| Block Constructed | Legal |
| Canadian Highlander | Legal |
| Casual | Legal |
| Commander / EDH | Legal |
| Commander: Rule 0 | Legal |
| Custom | Legal |
| Duel Commander | Legal |
| Freeform | Legal |
| Highlander | Legal |
| Legacy | Legal |
| Leviathan | Legal |
| Limited | Legal |
| Oathbreaker | Legal |
| Planar Constructed | Legal |
| Planechase | Legal |
| Quest Magic | Legal |
| Vanguard | Legal |
| Vintage | Legal |
Molten Echoes
Enchantment
As this enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
Whenever a nontoken creature of the chosen type enters the battlefield under your control, create a token that's a copy of that creature. That token gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.
StopShot on What exactly is the hard …
6 days ago
Disclaimer: (This is not a "who-is-the-antagonist" post. This matter has already long been resolved respectfully with an in-game vote. This example is given to point out potential gray-areas over what defines a 2-card combo with the intent to invite thought and discussion on what the nitty-gritty details and restrictions should entail when deck-building combos under the bracket system.)
The other day my playgroup had a bracket 3 match that caused an argument over what constitutes a 2-card combo over a play one of my opponents made. Bracket 3 officially states that there are:
No 2-card combos (before turn 6)
[Combos are] game-enders, lockouts, or infinites
In the game my opponent played a turn 1 Enlightened Tutor to fetch a Sol Ring, turn 2 played the Sol Ring, and on turn 3 played a Volcano Hellion having it deal 1 trillion damage to itself, but with its ETB ability on the stack they casted Archon's Glory bargaining the Sol Ring to give the Volcano Hellion lifelink which would result in my opponent gaining 1 trillion life by turn 3.
The playgroup insists the play is a 2-card combo that violates the spirit of bracket 3, because:
- The combo was pulled off by turn 3 and not turn 6 or later.
- The combo is a 2-card combo and not a 3-card combo as any sacrificed permanent required to bargain Archon's Glory shouldn't count in a mana-rock heavy format.
- The infinite life gain counts as a lockout since some decks would be unable to realistically break the lock via commander damage.
My opponent and a bystander watching the game argue the play fits within the confines of bracket 3, but for different reasons from each other:
- Ramp and Sol Ring shouldn't be factored in on how early a 2-card combo can occur when deck-building combos, otherwise ramp should count as an extra card in the combo making it a 3-card combo as the ramp was necessary for pulling off the combo early.
- If there had not been any ramping the combo would have occurred by turn 5 at the earliest with no means to win until turn 6 or after.
- The card bargained with Archon's Glory should count as card 3 as it was necessary to pull off the combo which is why they're running Archon's Glory over a card like Swift Justice.
- It doesn't fit the bracket definition of a combo as it's not a game-ender because it doesn't end the game, it's not an infinite because it's a one-time effect that is not loopable by itself, and it's not a lockout because it doesn't impede the functions of anyone's deck and players can still cast spells and attack no differently than before.
There was also discussion if bargaining a token for Archon's Glory would have still made it a 3-card combo if they had sacrificed a treasure token instead of a mana-rock. This further begged the question if and when any card should be counted as being a part of a combo like in the combo Flameshadow Conjuring + Felidar Guardian + Mountain. (The Felidar Guardian always blinks the Mountain effectively untapping it so you can always pay the Flameshadow Conjuring's triggered ability while the hasty token blinks the original Felidar Guardian to restart the loop.) Since the basic land is necessary for the combo, would a basic Mountain count as card 3 of the combo or does it go against the spirit of the 2-card combo rule? Molten Echoes + Felidar Guardian isn't allowed in comparison as it's a 2-card combo that doesn't require blinking a mana source to generate infinite hasty tokens, yet that combo is no less difficult to pull off than the Flameshadow Conjuring variation.
How would you best define what is or is not a 2-card combo before turn 6?
SinAffliction on
Be'lakor, Blade of the Seraph
2 months ago
If I had suggestions as far as demons go. Gyruda, Doom of Depths and Vilis, Broker of Blood. Enchantments Reflections of Littjara and Molten Echoes. I see you haveFlameshadow Conjuring but you wont have to try to keep a red open for Molten Echoes. =]
Los333 on
General Tazri’s Allies
1 year ago
Akoum Battlesinger
Beastcaller Savant
Harabaz Druid
Kor Bladewhirl
Makindi Aeronaut
Serene Steward
Chasm Guide
Ally Encampment
Black Market Connections
Cavern of Souls
Changeling Outcast
Conjurer's Mantle
Cryptic Gateway
Descendants' Path
Haunting Voyage
Kindred Charge
Kindred Summons
Molten Echoes
Patchwork Banner
Path of Ancestry
Radiant Destiny
Raise the Palisade
Reflections of Littjara
Secluded Courtyard
Shared Animosity
Stoneforge Masterwork
Unclaimed Territory
Unified Front
Unsettled Mariner
Urza's Incubator
Arcane Signet
Chromatic Lantern
Command Tower
Cryptolith Rite
Elven Chorus
Smothering Tithe
Song of Freyalise
Tarnation Vista
Unknown Shores
Elfhame Sanctuary
Blightstep Pathway
Flip
Crumbling Necropolis
Crystal Grotto
Darkbore Pathway
Flip
Hengegate Pathway
Flip
Riverglide Pathway
Flip
Reflecting Pool
Mistgate Pathway
Flip
Clearwater Pathway
Flip
Mystic Monastery
Needleverge Pathway
Flip
Nomad Outpost
Savage Lands
Seaside Citadel
Barkchannel Pathway
Flip
Cragcrown Pathway
Flip
Spirit of Resistance
MahBoi100 on
I'm Gonna Didgeridoo You in the Ass
1 year ago
Thank you both for the upvote and the feedback. I appreciate it! I have played with both Phyrexian Arena and Molten Echoes in the maindeck before, but I have found them to be a little too slow and grindy, especially Echoes. I may put Arena into the deck again, but I haven't missed the extra card draw atm. Because minotaurs are a bit slow in the wind-up, I have come to prefer burst card draw, like Night's Whisper and Reforge the Soul. I might actually add Sign in Blood in the future because of that. You've given me something to think about. Thank you for that! :)
Regarding Aggravated Assault versus Relentless Assault, I prefer the former because of its strong synergy with Neheb, the Eternal, as well as being, as you say, repeatable. That being said, extra combat steps are really strong in our deck, and Moraug, Fury of Akoum has shown me that a well timed extra combat step out of nowhere can be game ending. If I find room someday, I might add Relentless Assault or maybe Savage Beating.
DarkKiridon on
I'm Gonna Didgeridoo You in the Ass
1 year ago
+1 from me! I love this.
Wish I had some better or useful recommendations but maybe mainboard Phyrexian Arena and Molten Echoes? Swap out Aggravated Assault for Relentless Assault? Maybe the former is better for more uses out of it but I feel like that mana could be used for other things. That's all I got lol
trey12321 on
Lathliss, the Hungry Queen
2 years ago
Azoth2099 thanks for the suggestions!
I think I'm more inclined to include rocks than rituals, I am a green player at heart and always prefer continual rather than burst ramp! Thran Dynamo is definitely one I'll be looking at, but I've also considered Heraldic Banner and Throne of Eldraine as solid options. The biggest issue I'm having is generally what to cut for them, the same issue I have for most of these options. Any suggestions there?
Treasonous Ogre isn't one I'd seen before, I'm definitely interested in that. Birgi, God of Storytelling Flip seems more relevant if I'm trying to cast more than 2 spells in a turn, which in most cases I'm not and even then, the payoff seems too small for what the deck does generally speaking, I.E. ramp into Lathliss, then overwhelm the field with every dragon dropped after. Even most of the artifacts and enchantments currently tend to have pretty immediate effect.
I do tend to prefer to have my lands hit the field, though, so Tectonic Reformation seems mostly situationally useful. I tend to need more land draws than action draws with my current high curve, as I'm usually only doing 1 or 2 spells a turn and they're 5-8 CMC. Gamble for sure I'll be looking into, but to be honest I don't regularly find myself looking for any specific cards in the deck, my Sarkhan's Triumph is usually just finding my Utvara Hellkite, so a "win-more" situation generally, but I could see using it particularly for something like Sol Ring early to ramp more consistently. For those same reasons I couldn't really see justifying Fervent Mastery or Reckless Handling. I like being able to plan, and the random discard would be bad enough with Gamble. And yeah, Imperial Recruiter is fantastic but not so much here.
Molten Echoes 100%, I totally spaced that one. Sneak Attack seems good as well but I'd been running in mostly casual circles so I hadn't seriously considered including it before. Mana Echoes=better Birgi? Absolutely interested in this one now, I'd forgotten it existed as well! I'll be honest though, the Underworld Breach+draw spells/wheels is definitely outside of my desired playstyle with the deck, I don't tend to need anything differently than what I have in hand other than making sure I have a good mix of mana/spells in practice. I am running the Blood Moon, mostly because I happened to open the fancy foil one! My playgroups don't tend to justify a Price of Glory and all of my cards tend to be about equal in value, so I don't mind a few getting countered here and there. It tends to be board wipes that are the most impactful to me, or repeated removal of Lathliss, Dragon Queen. Stranglehold does seem good though, I may pick one up.
As far as Universal Automaton, I avoid changelings where possible mostly due to personal preference. I play a lot of tribal decks and it always feels a bit like cheating haha. I use it in decks that want multiple tribes though, like Rin and Seri, Inseparable. I assume you suggest Wandering Archaic Flip in monocolored to specifically cover what the chosen color can't do? I.E. a red deck and Naturalize? I could see it being good, but also giving my opponents the ability to choose doesn't tend to work out too well for me, they tend to focus fire me no matter the game because I play politics whether I'm ahead or behind.
Thanks again for the suggestions, and if you have ideas for what to take out please let me know!
Azoth2099 on
Lathliss, the Hungry Queen
2 years ago
You need way more ramp in this list if you want it to be consistent with it's curve. Pyretic Ritual, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song & Battle Hymn are all great here. A few more rocks would do you some good as well, like Thran Dynamo & Basalt Monolith. The ones that you usually see in multicolor decks like Arcane Signet & Fellwar Stone are still pretty solid in monocolor builds that aren't .
Treasonous Ogre & Birgi, God of Storytelling Flip are classic bangers that can help ramp you out, with the added benefit of pseudo card-draw on Birgi's flip side.
More card draw and tutors never hurts, either. Tectonic Reformation is pretty nice here since you're running so many lands, & Gamble is one of the best tutors in the game. Fervent Mastery is worth considering, but can obviously be especially punishing for non-graveyard decks. Reckless Handling is pretty nice if you're running some dank artifacts, which you are! Imperial Recruiter is another classic that I wouldn't necessarily recommend for this iteration of your list, but may come in handy later.
Other enchantments to consider here in my opinion are Molten Echoes, Sneak Attack & Mana Echoes as grease for your deck engine. Running Underworld Breach would allow you to more comfortably run draw pieces like Faithless Looting, Thrill of Possibility, Cathartic Reunion, Tormenting Voice, Wheel of Fortune, Magus of the Wheel & Wheel of Misfortune. Also certain stax pieces like Blood Moon, Price of Glory & Stranglehold to help shut down whatever your opponents are trying to do.
Universal Automaton seems like great value here as well, but I could understand not including it. Wandering Archaic Flip on the other hand I would 100% recommend for any & all monocolor decks.
Good luck refining your list!
| Have (1) | metalmagic |
| Want (2) | qao50 , nicesocks |