|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander 2016 (C16)||Uncommon|
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Chain of Vapor
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand. Then that permanent's controller may sacrifice a land. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.
Chain of Vapor Discussion
1 week ago
Adding black would also let you run cards like Nekusar, the Mindrazer , Fate Unraveler , Kederekt Parasite , etc... as alternate win cons in case you lose your Smothering Tithe. Right now I'm a bit concerned that it's vulnerable to exile when Return to Dust and Merciless Eviction are format staples. Something like Into the Roil or Chain of Vapor would help you rescue your Smothering Tithe in that event. Barrin, Master Wizard would also be excellent for getting added utility out of your treasures.
3 weeks ago
Hey Cameron I have a couple of questions
I have been super impressed by Tezzeret the Seeker in my Tasigur deck, what's your opinion on it.
What exactly is the purpose of Dimir Charm . I've tried it, but I was left unconvinced.
And what is usually the tiebreaken between Necropotence and Ad Nauseam ? As far as I understand it, Necro is more consistent, is better with a higher cmc, but is hard to cast and taxes your later card draw. AdNaus is way more explosive, better with a low cmc, but far more dangerous. Are there any more arguments for either card?
I hope you find these questions interesting enough to answer. Have a good day :)
3 weeks ago
What are some of the most popular instants and sorceries according to EDHREC?
Putrefy , Utter End , Terminate , Mortify , Krosan Grip , Hero's Downfall , Crosis's Charm , Bant Charm , Sylvan Reclamation , Go for the Throat , Doom Blade , Murder , Grixis Charm , Cancel , Dreadbore etc.
What do these have in common? Well, they are bad removal (or countermagic... or both), all of which are overcosted.
Why? Well, these all fall under different categories, however, I will go from the easiest to explain to the hardest.
Cancel is too expensive, countermagic should be one or two mana so you don't have to clearly have a sign up that you are holding countermagic. This is really cheap, and I can't compete with that, but Mana Leak or Counterspell would be better in the spot tenfold.
Murder is the same, as creature removal, but at least can be cast on endsteps. The issue lies with that many spells cost less, like even Doom Blade , which I also don't like, or do more, like Terminate , another I also don't like.
Disdainful Stroke is way too specific, so many spells costs 3 or less you may hold up the mana multiple turn cycles in a row without a target, wasting mana and a card. Too expensive considering cards like Swan Song , Spell Pierce , Red Elemental Blast , Flusterstorm , etc. exist. Even at a low price Mana Leak , Negate , etc. do work.
Doom Blade and Go for the Throat are the same, except they still have application when used on an endstep. Too expensive despite that, as Swords to Plowshares , Path to Exile , Dismember , Fatal Push , etc. exist if you can spend the money, while on a budget Murderous Cut , Tragic Slip , etc. do a lot.
Grixis Charm and Crosis's Charm cost Grixis, 3 mana, and are just too hard to cast to be worth the half Vindicate esque effect they do. They bounce anything, kill some things, and one has a minor benefit like 2 extra power. It just doesn't serve consistent enough for removal. 3 mana in Grixis is too much altogether.
Sylvan Reclamation five mana is too much unless it is a sweeper. This has utility, hitting two permanents, and is an instant with landcycling, but the mana cost needed to be 1 lower to be efficient. Nature's Claim , Return to Dust , Disenchant , Natural State , Naturalize , etc. are all better.
Utter End is too high mana cost to be worth it. It is a worse Anguished Unmaking , another bad card, and is just too much to warrant using it over a card like Chain of Vapor , Swords to Plowshares , Nature's Claim , Dismember , or any of the other 1 cmc removal spells.
(BTW this was an April Fools, all of these cards can be good or bad in specific metagames or decks.)
3 weeks ago
In EDH, when a player with a blue source and at least mana in other sources open on a field. It is a threat. It is a threat not because of a 7 mana spell, but a 2 mana spell, not a spell that deals damage, counters spell, destroys permanents, tutors, or cheats costs, but a bounce spell.
Cyclonic Rift , C-Rift, the big wave, whatever you call it, people know it as one of the strongest, most backbreaking spells in all of EDH, if not the best card in the format.
I am here to say that is isn't.
Part of my series on why other popular staples aren't good ( Phyrexian Arena , Rampant Growth ), or are simply not good in a specific way ( Rhystic Study ), I am not here to deny the power that a card like Cyclonic Rift has, but simply that it isn't a good enough card to warrant the hate or love that it receives.
Before I go over why it isn't good, I need to go over why at nearly every power level, it is good.
In casual EDH, the 50% or less, the Precons, the jank, lies it's the weakest state.
That is where all removal spells, sweepers, or countermagic is the weakest, especially bounce. If no one has threatening boards, why remove them. You'd rather spend 7 mana on a spell to improve yours most of the time, yet those games go long, the Cyclonic Rift acts as a Fog to save you, Sleep to get in for damage, or real removal if you use it on a player's end step if they have to discard just after.
Almost all cards that show heavy play at higher levels show some play at lower ones, and while the price-tag may limit it for most casual players, it does work.
At the 75% or the middle tiers of EDH, where I think EDH players mostly lie, it where it is the most powerful. IF it destroyed any number of target nonland permanents, it would be weaker, because of three reasons:
75% decks often use permanent-based engines to support their gameplan. Think Beast Whisperer along with a deck full of cheap elves, or Paradox Engine in a deck will a lot of Temple Bell effects and mana rocks.
These decks and their creators often expect opponents to remove threats, so have many threats to remove.
They try to protect against sweepers, the only punishing cards for going so wide, with anti-sweepers, think Heroic Intervention , or Boros Charm , and protect against some single-target removal with effects like Darksteel Plate .
Because of this, and because indestructible and hexproof don't protect against a mass bounce effect, along with Cyclonic Rift being the only mass bounce at instant speed that doesn't affect you at all, and doesn't target, it is truly the best anti-75% sweeper by many standards.
In the competitive setting, while not bad, it is mostly relegated to being a 2 mana Chain of Vapor or a Into the Roil that doesn't draw a card, that can let a combo deck get through stax locks once in a blue moon.
Don't get me wrong, being relegated to a slightly worse Chain of Vapor isn't an insult. Chain of Vapor is possible the best removal in cEDH, as decks like Kess consultation or P-Hulk variants Laboratory Maniac wins, and for 1 blue mana, or two in the case of Cyclonic Rift , you get to bounce their wincon as they draw off an empty deck, so they lose...
That is some powerful stuff.
So why isn't it the best EDH card, an efficient spell in nearly any metagame? 2 options for removal, one that crushes many lists and the other a sleek and useful trick?
Because it isn't hyper-efficient, nor is it unbeatable, nor is it irreplaceable.
To start, many cEDH decks that run it run consistent amounts of countermagic to protect it's possible great effect, and numerous cards could fit the spot. It isn't alone. Blink of an Eye , the second Into the Roil has been used over it in many combo lists that more mana-efficient options and many forget the slot all-together, in favor of a cantrip or other removal spell like Abrade or whatever. It isn't very dominant there, and so is easy to explain why it wouldn't be amazing there.
In casual lists, Cyclonic Rift costs about as much as half of many of the casual decks, or even more than some entire casual decks that I have seen. Bringing money-cards wins there, as would a Consecrated Sphinx that costs less money, and I'd wager would have more powerful an effect. Again, an easy argument, but I believe it works.
The really hard place to argue against Cyclonic Rift on the surface is the middle tiers. The 75% lists. Legitimately, I think it is because in the 75% players don't consistently a highly interactive 'metagame'. They just prefer to be interactive 'ingame'.
This comes down to theory, however, when a deck, for example, an elf list abusing the Llanowar Elves style effects along with untap effects to keep making mana, dumping it into something like Ezuri, Renegade Leader . All of that deck and many others get shut down by Null Rod . While that card may be less powerful than other cards against any random deck, as many players know exactly what decks they face, they can play to those decks.
This means general removal, like Anguished Unmaking may be worse if artifacts and walkers don't see much play, you'd rather Mortify . Or if instant speed doesn't help you much, as a lot of City of Solitude / Dosan the Falling Leaf effects exist in your meta, Vindicate , etc.
This is pretty basic knowledge, however, the point here is that there are many, many replacements for Cyclonic Rift in different metagames, and I want to share the ones, only in mono-blue, that in the 75% are why Cyclonic Rift is overrated.
This isn't to say it isn't the best, but that if many, many replacements cost way less $$$ and are occasionally better, that one card shouldn't be considered the best in every situation.
Aether Gale , sorcery, only hits six things, has to hit your things if you don't have enough targets of only your opponents, targets, etc. Yes, there are reasons this is clearly worse.
Why is it better? Politically, you don't have to hit cards from players you team with. Similarly, if you like the Howling Mine on someone's field, don't bounce it. Someone Banishing Light ed someone else's threat you can't deal with? Don't bounce it.
Also, 18 cents. Compared to ~20 dollars and I think it is a steal for budget lists.
Also, it is 2 mana cheaper, despite not being an occasional Disperse .
Evacuation , the downside is simple, it doesn't hit non-creatures, and bounces your own things.
The upsides are for decks that want their own things bounced. ETB effects like Mulldrifter (You can respond to the sacrifice on evoke if you want!), Archaeomancer (infinite sweepers by returning Evacuation , or just recur another card), Duplicant , Solemn Simulacrum , etc.
It is 5 mana too, still an instant, and is only 2-3 dollars right now.
Other options for this could be AEtherize , Whelming Wave , Inundate , Engulf the Shore , Profaner of the Dead , or Scourge of Fleets if you just want mass creature bounce, each with ups and downs, some that only hit opposing creatures, some that are instants, some with graveyard synergies, etc.
For mass nonland bounce that doesn't target? There are tons of options, plenty with lower mana costs than Cyclonic Rift .
Take Coastal Breach . It does a mass bounce for just 4 mana (with 3 opponents), leaving you enough to rebuild first, and being able to be cast much faster, making up slightly for the sorcery speed.
Or Crush of Tentacles , 6 mana? 5 mana and an 8/8, it needs to be in a deck with enough cheap drops to hit surge to be worth it, but an option.
Devastation Tide is a personal favorite, if you run Aminatou, Brainstorm , a lot of scry, Mystical Tutor , Long-Term Plans , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , or are lucky, it is a 2 mana bounce everything. Really strong, however, sorcery (unless you cast it with Miracle on an opponents turn.
Run really high mana cards? Displacement Wave can be better,
Like a big creature attached? Kederekt Leviathan . It even comboes with flicker effects, or can be repeated for 2 mana with an effect like Animate Dead or 3 mana at instant speed whenever with Necromancy in black/blue.
Only need to target one player for political reasons? River's Rebuke .
A lot of one color in the meta? Wash Out
Artifacts/Enchantments? Reduce to Dreams
Even outside of bounce effects, Ixidron can do work xD
Point is, there are options. Even outside of blue, sweepers that can get around the normal protection is seriously strong. Terminus , Hallowed Burial , along with most mass exile effects in white from Play of the Game to Final Judgement / Descend upon the Sinful to the new Urza's Ruinous Blast , etc. Mercilous Eviction in W/B, the -x/-x effects in black like Toxic Deluge or Black Sun's Zenith , etc. in any color, Perilous Vault exists.
These are half of why I think Cyclonic Rift is overrated. Not because it isn't great at what it does, but that it isn't that much better than the rest.
The other half is simple.
Every color (sorry colorless) has answers to Cyclonic Rift off the top of my head.
Black? Many lists abuse cards like Inquisition of Kozilek or other discard to remove powerful cards from opposing decks.
Green? Ugh... Yeah, I guess some colors don't have answers...
(Gutteral Response if they ever make hybrid legal in mono-colored xD)
That's all. Thoughts?
3 weeks ago
Hey, to really speed your deck up you're going to unfortunately have to spend more money on better mana rocks and lands. That being said here's some budget options to help to improve your deck.
Cards to consider adding:
- Shivan Reef : ETB untapped to make colorless, red or blue mana.
- Ash Barrens : ETB untapped to make colorless mana or best of all can be discarded from hand to search for a basic land.
- Grixis Panorama : ETB untapped to make colorless mana and can be saced later on to find a basic Island or Mountain.
- Mystic Remora : one of the best repeatable sources of card draw in multiplayer Commander.
- Fellwar Stone : two drop mana rock that ETB untapped.
- Mystical Tutor : tutor for any instant or sorcery.
- Gamble : tutor for any card.
- Merchant Scroll : tutor for an blue instant.
- Twincast : copy any instant or sorcery. When you have multiple opponents this is very versatile or copy your own spell and get an additional effect for an additional two mana.
- Reverberate : same as Twincast.
- Chaos Warp : permanent removal, removal for Smothering Tithe .
- Chain of Vapor : nonland permanent bounce, bounce Smothering before you wheel or mass draw.
- Abrade : kill a creature or a mana rock.
- Reality Shift : instant exile is good in Commander.
- Bident of Thassa : lots of card draw with Insects, double your Insect army just by doing combat damage to an opponent, win condition with several cards here.
- Whirlpool Warrior : two wheels.
- Psychosis Crawler : more mana efficient win condition when drawing.
- Izzet Charm : versatile.
- Expedition Map : tutor for Reliquary Tower or Command Tower. Just being able to get Reliquary is worth it.
- Pull from Tomorrow : another good instant mass draw spell.
If you like some of these suggestions then I offer help to make cuts. Good luck with your deck.
3 weeks ago
Hey, looks good, nice Wheel of Fortune :)
Consider reducing the avg. CMC of your deck? Izzet and control thrive on being able to cast a lot of spells especially when you're wheeling. I presume you're playing Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre to stop yourself from drawing/wheeling your entire library as well as opponent mill against you? With your high deck budget there's several card upgrades to consider, even some budget cards.
Consider Jace's Archivist ? It's a repeatable Windfall for one mana. Consider Mystic Remora ? Like Study it's repeatable no mana cost draw and is excellent in multiplayer Commander. Consider Brainstorm , Preordain and Frantic Search ? All three of these are in the maybeboard, not sure why.
Consider Twincast and Reverberate ? These are underrated spells in multiplayer Commander. When you have multiple opponents that makes these very versatile. Blue and Red lack a lot of tutors. There's still a few good ones such as Gamble (consider adding), Mystical Tutor , Merchant Scroll , etc., but none of these compare to black powerful tutors or green creature tutors. These cards can act as a two drop tutor at instant speed or even copy your own wheel or Mystical.
Consider Fabricate ? It can tutor for one of Puzzle Box, Crawler, Archive, or even Sol or Vessel, etc. Consider Expedition Map ? For one reason to tutor for Requilary Tower and/or Command Tower. For the manabase consider City of Brass , Mana Confluence , Forbidden Orchard and Ash Barrens ? City, Confluence and Orchard are more Rainbow lands and Barrens has basic landcycling or it can ETB untapped to make colorless.
Smothering Tithe is a very popular white card and you don't want to wheel the table if this card is on the battlefield because your opponent depending on how many other players are still in the game can create up to 21 treasures from one wheel. Letting your opponent then have all the mana to cast all the cards they just drew from the wheel. Consider Chain of Vapor and Chaos Warp to help to against Smothering and other problem permanents?
Cards to consider adding:
- City of Brass , Mana Confluence , Forbidden Orchard and Ash Barrens
- Jace's Archivist
- Mystic Remora
- Brainstorm , Preordain , Frantic Search
- Chain of Vapor
- Chaos Warp
- Expedition Map
Cards to consider cutting:
- Bad River
- Evolving Wilds
- Terramorphic Expanse
- Transguild Promenade
- Rupture Spire
- Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
- Dominus of Fealty
- Murmuring Mystic
- Laquatus's Creativity
- Game Plan
- Scour from Existence
- Swarm Intelligence
- Sentinel Tower
- Darksteel Ingot
Good luck with your deck.
4 weeks ago
I am trying to finish an edh deck. Below are cards I am looking for. My binder is out of date. So if you have an updated looking for list would be helpful. I'm taking apart 6 edh decks and have lots of edh playables. For the reserve list cards listed, I would be willing to give a little extra for, or trade some of my reserve list cards (like cradle, metal worker, etc.).
Carpet of Flowers
Chain of Vapor
Elvish Spirit Guide
Pact of Negation .
Wall of Roots .
Yawgmoth's Will .
1 month ago
Honestly when I do cast Cyclonic Rift , I'm more than likely going to be overloading it. The boardwipe potential warrants the slot, and I've found that Chain of Vapor just hasn't put in enough work in my meta. It just hasn't done enough and I'd much rather see literally any other removal spell in my hand. Sorry guys, but you have to realize that I don't play cEDH. There's more emphasis on value and longevity in my meta than there is on speed. I would be running cards like Mental Misstep , Flusterstorm , and Counterbalance if this was a cEDH meta, but I've instead adapted cEDH lines into this deck and certain cards in the mix just weren't worth the slot based on what I aim to do.
Chain of Vapor occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.04%
U/B/R (Grixis): 0.48%