Queen Marchesa: Politics, Aikido, and Control

Commander / EDH* precociousapprentice

SCORE: 753 | 913 COMMENTS | 216826 VIEWS | IN 386 FOLDERS


After thinking about why Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim should have been good, and why she turned out to be less than I had hoped, I started to consider other cards for that spot. The problem was that she was rarely active, she advertised her value before she was able to fulfill her role, and she often just drew hate. She was an efficient deathtouch creature, but those are better when they are less obtrusive, so having a powerful ability that never got used just made her, and hence me, a bigger threat than she actually was. This was counter to the theme of the deck. She was fine, just not great, and despite all indications that she would fit nicely, she was antisynnergistic.

The most obvious alternatives would be other efficient deathtouch creatures. Since that was the role she actually fulfilled, I could easily find other deathtouch creatures to fill it. Rancid Rats actually works pretty well, same CMC, easier to cast, and skulk means that it can usually sneak in to steal The Monarch back if I lose it, or hit for a huge Hatred when I have the opportunity. Not bad. Fetid Imp brings flying, and can gain deathtouch for a . Malakir Familiar brings flying and an extra ability. Flying defense is nice in EDH. Pharika's Chosen, Ruthless Ripper, Typhoid Rats are all very efficient, but don't really bring much more than a Queen Marchesa token, and would potentially not bring enough value to the deck for the card slot. Any of these could probably replace Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim without affecting the performance of the deck, since her actual role only turned out to be a ground deathtouch creature that seemed more threatening than she actually was.

Finally, another direction I could go is assassins. Kiku, Night's Flower, Royal Assassin, and King's Assassin all threaten to kill any attacker, including evasive attackers, but they also threaten utility creatures that tap for value. The ability can be used politically, can be used either outside of combat or when I am not involved in combat, and it is active on the turn after they come into play. This can effectively perform exactly the same function that I hoped Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim would perform, but be active from the start, if slightly more limited in scope. I think the tap to destroy effect on each of these is slightly more powerful than block or be blocked to destroy ability of a deathtouch creature. The tradeoff is dropping a less subtle threat, which Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim also brought with her.

In the end, this is not an essential function, just a duplicate of functions the deck already performs. I can replace Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim with something that performs a similar function, or potentially go a different direction, without really changing deck performance much.

March 21, 2017 9:23 a.m.

Going to try out Kiku, Night's Flower and Royal Assassin, as well as maindeck Comeuppance again to see how they run. Took out some Ramp/Fixing that was starting to look a little excessive. We shall see after playtesting.

March 22, 2017 12:28 p.m.

UnleashedHavok says... #3

My big thing with playing cards like Royal Assassin is that if my opponent is playing any Contagion Engine type effects, those cards are immediately gone. I know this deck is geared toward don't attack me, but how do you guard against this?

March 23, 2017 11:34 a.m.

To be totally honest, I just don't see Contagion Engine, so it has never bothered me. I will likely only keep one of them, but I want to try both.

I am also reconsidering Stronghold Discipline. I have never playtested it, and I had figured that Rakdos Charm was vastly superior to it, so I never tried it. The thing is, I win off of Rakdos Charm way more often than I should. Granted, it is searchable with both Sunforger and Shred Memory, but maybe I am overlooking the fact that the offense it would bering would be worth the higher cost, the inability to be tutored for with Sunforger and Shred Memory, the fact that it is a sorcery and not an instant, and the fact that it has no other uses. If that brings enough offense, it can be worth it.

March 23, 2017 1:30 p.m.

Ok, all. I am an idiot. I had a realization in play yesterday that should have been obvious, but I had missed it. Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim was meant to be both Rattle Snake and spot removal, but the deck was not built around it, so she never got going. I focused on the spot removal, and when she was removed from the deck, I replaced it with repeatable creature spot removal, thinking that would at least come close to replacing the value of Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim. What I didn't fully grasp was that the weakness of slow speed of the removal, along with the durability of the removal was the problem, and that Assassins would never be able to make up for this. I was sitting on one of the best removal spells that are available in Queen Marchesa's colors, and I recognized this at least enough to put it into a sideboard slot because I just couldn't cut it all the way. I think I should just put the good spot removal back in, and skip all this getting fancy with creatures for removal BS. Since my Rattle Snake and Pillow Fort defense is already very strong, I am not sure why I am worrying about it so much, especially since I keep strengthening it with the most subtle of subtle Pillow Fort cards like Duelist's Heritage, Slayers' Stronghold, and Key to the City.

Right now, I think I just need to consolidate what I think this deck does best, make sure that I bring enough of both the offense and defense that this deck works off of, ensure that I am optimally countering common deck archetypes in ways that are synergistic with the rest of the deck, and not get distracted with complicated additions.

With that said, I have a sideboard that I have constructed of cards that are meant for tuning this more specifically to different metas, and for including cards for combating common archetypes that my meta does not contain. Even if I don't use this as a common sideboard between games, this is my list of cards to adjust for changing metas as I go between them, likely usually between sessions.

Changes that I plan:

Main Deck changes should be to consolidate the theme of the deck, removing weakness in favor of the strengths.

Out:

Kiku, Night's Flower, Royal Assassin. I love the art on Kiku, but she was a distraction. Neither will be the bomb that I want, neither is subtle enough for a non-bomb card.

In:

Stronghold Discipline - Rakdos Charm is a huge part of my offense, and wins a ton of games. Stronghold Discipline is essentially another copy. Unconventional offensive plays are what this deck does best. Consolidate around the deck's strengths.

Utter End - One of the best spot removal spells available. Control is one of the things this deck does best, especially surgical removal. Consolidate around the deck's strengths.

Sideboard changes should compensate for different metas and allow me to combat the weaknesses in the deck with respect to commonly played archetypes that are just not that common in my usual meta. I am OK with unfairly destroying decks in metas that are not my usual meta.

Out: Utter End - Into the Main Deck!

In: Rest in Peace - The best at what it does, kills a lot of combo, storm, spellslinger, value engines, reanimator, etc...

So, what does that leave us with?

Ramp and Fixing: Lots of Ramp and Fixing that is tuned and synergistic with the rest of the deck, as well as a curve that allows us to bring out early big plays. Gift of Estates and Tithe double as card draw late game, and our unconventional manabase is highly synergistic with the rest of the deck.

Draw and Tutoring: Enough Draw and Tutoring to make the deck consistent and holding enough answers for every threat or weakness, without being obtrusive or conventional enough to be obvious about it. Three all star players in this list are Shred Memory, Key to the City, and Sea Gate Wreckage. Uncommon tutors and draw with huge impact in this deck without ringing any danger bells for most players. This suite makes my already versatile card list even more versatile.

Defense: A 25 card subtle and somewhat unconventional Pillow Fort and Rattle Snake defense with a low curve, the potential to be used offensively, and which is synergistic with itself as well as my offense. Back this up with a nice Fog suite, making my defensive wall extend into my hand so as to not have all of it sit on the battlefield to be effective, and bringing it's own offense in the right circumstances. Add to this a control package that is complete with a very strong and versatile spot removal suite, some reactive board wipes that have offensive uses, and multiple cards to allow us to protect our board state, including counterspells in Mardu colors!

Offense: The offense is structured to take advantage of typical board states and the strengths of my opponents with cards that have outsized effect for their costs. It is designed to be huge Aikido bombs against any Big Mana, Big Creature, Big Army, Big Hand, or Big Attack deck. It is structured in pairs of cards for each of these, including Acidic Soil/Price of Progress, Backlash/Delirium, Rakdos Charm/Stronghold Discipline, Sudden Impact/Toil / Trouble, Deflecting Palm/Comeuppance, with Arcbond, Batwing Brume, and Eye for an Eye all reinforcing this array of counterattacks. This reactive offense is backed up with a couple of big bomb offensive attacks in the form of Master of Cruelties and Hatred, a couple of midrange beaters in the form of Serra Ascendant, Gisela, the Broken Blade, and Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs, and an army of smaller defensive and utility creatures. Bring in combat tricks and enablers like Duelist's Heritage, Slayers' Stronghold, Key to the City, and Rogue's Passage to act as later game silver bullets, and the offense is quite versatile.

Sideboard: Packed with Combo hate, a counterspell suite of my own for Counterspell and Blue Control hate, Graveyard Antics hate, and extra offense in the form of Dark Depths as an uncounterable big beater and Exsanguinate for big burn.

In all, I think I am pretty satisfied with where the deck now sits, and will likely consider this list to basically be the core deck. Testing will confirm, I think I have chased down all the areas that needed shored up, and I feel like this is, at the moment, a completed list.

March 24, 2017 10:38 a.m.

I thought it may be helpful to add a discussion about Phyrexian Arena here for another view.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/674665-pyrexian-arena-vancouver-mulligans

March 25, 2017 11:05 a.m.

UnleashedHavok says... #8

So I just found this card: Soul Link. I think it could another of those fun cards. I'm imagining enchanting an opponents' big fatty. If they choose to attack you, it would basically null the attack. Or you could just enchant a creature and get a nice bump when you swing it with Hatred. Just a thought, it does seem like a very situational card. I guess I'd like your thoughts

March 25, 2017 1:01 p.m.

In a less tight list, that would be a fun semi-Pillow Fort. Enchant their creature, they can attack someone else, or attack you to no effect. Not in a list this tight, though.

March 25, 2017 2:21 p.m.

Epic game today! Melek, Izzet Paragon Aetherflux Reservoir spellslinger vs Karlov of the Ghost Council lifelink extort vs my Queen Marchesa deck.

Highlights were Felidar Sovereign coming out and threatening to give Karlov of the Ghost Council the game, it was immediately stolen by the Melek, Izzet Paragon player, then retrieved before the Melek, Izzet Paragon player's upkeep, but doing enough damage to stop the win by the Karlov of the Ghost Council player's next upkeep. This was followed by an epic counterspell battle I got into with the Melek, Izzet Paragon player over my Sunforger with Melek playing Counterspell, me playing Pyroblast, her playing Muddle the Mixture, and me then playing Mana Tithe against her tapped out board to allow the Sunforger to resolve!

The game went forever, and in the end, it was a Sunforger equipped Queen Marchesa that took out Melek, Izzet Paragon after a big Past in Flames turn she played took out Karlov of the Ghost Council, but failed to take me out due to a Deflecting Palm, and I protected Queen Marchesa with a Boros Charm against her Incinerate! Amazing game!

March 26, 2017 11:04 p.m.

My playgroup had a big discussion last night about what is fun and what is not. We are considering banning Sol Ring from our group. It is obvious that it is powerful, and everyone has one in their deck with the exception of the Omnath, Locus of Mana deck. If almost every deck feels the need to play it, it has become a format of 1 commander, 98 singleton cards, and 1 Sol Ring. For variety sake, we are likely to remove it from our regular play. We have also considered moving toward the more stringent French Duel Commander Ban List. This would require a few changes for each deck, but not extensive. Other players' decks would be hurt worse than this deck, and the Omnath, Locus of Mana player (my wife), who has a prized Gaea's Cradle is probably the most upset that it would be removed from the meta. Neither decision was settled today.

The other thing that came up was the idea of playing Wishes. We have all migrated to using a sideboard, making changes after each player reveals their commander before play. Utilizing this sideboard as a wishboard would be fun. I have begun the process of exploring the idea of utilizing both Burning Wish and Death Wish, with some modifications to my sideboard. I will probably post my thoughts on a wishboard and wishes in general here soon.

April 1, 2017 11:41 a.m.

So the decision to go without Sol Ring was confirmed by consensus today. I will be removing it. I will probably not replace it with another mana rock, I feel like I have enough, and I will probably not miss one, even if it is the powerful Sol Ring. This frees up a slot for something interesting.

Let's talk Wishes and Wishboards. Per the mtg.gamepedia.com reference, "A Wishboard is a sideboard for a deck that is intended to be used in conjunction with the Judgment Wishes (Burning Wish, Living Wish, Cunning Wish, Death Wish, or Golden Wish), or Future Sight's Glittering Wish. Often, these sideboard cards are not intended to ever be sided into the main deck between games; rather, one of the Wishes is used to retrieve the cards instead. The intent of this strategy is to not devote maindeck space to cards that may be irrelevant in any particular match-up. Instead one trades game tempo for the ability to have the correct answer every game. This is, of course, assuming that the Wishboard contains the proper answers."

Wishes are controversial. The main arguments against them are that they can be abused if they are allowed to be used to retrieve any card you own, without restriction; that they are not universally played, giving those who play them an unexpected advantage on other players; and that they are another thing to slow down a game with searches. Many people believe that Wishes are very overpowered. In EDH specifically, Wishboards are often stated to be against the spirit of the format, changing a 100 card singleton format into a 110 card singleton format. Those who dislike them ask why we need 110 card slots, asking, "Aren't 100 cards enough?" Those who are against the use of Wishes are often very adamant and very vocal about it.

The arguments to counter these objections to Wishes are pretty straightforward. The first counter is that restricting the searches to only the allowable but optional sideboard, eliminating the potential for abuse of an entire collection worth of cards, and requiring thoughtful inclusion of cards chosen for this purpose, will keep the abuse and annoyance down to a bearable level. The second counter is that many cards are not "universally" played, often appear as "secret tech", but that acknowledging the use of Wishes prior to play is more than fair, given that many players do not even give this courtesy to the opponent regarding their "secret tech" prior to play, but that advantage through card choice is always an element in Magic, and there is no difference here. The third counter is that, while searches do slow the game down, a search of a small and restricted sideboard chosen just for this purpose is much less of a drain on time than many cards that are more universally played, such as common Tutors and even Fetches or green Ramp cards. To search through 10 or 15 cards for an answer, without needing to shuffle your deck following this, is a very small burden on game time, compared to many other well accepted cards. I will address their power level below, but any argument about the spirit of EDH is often a complete waste of time, and usually degenerates into a statement of "I like my EDH like this, and not like that." I will not address the spirit of EDH.

The usual comparisons made between Wishes and other cards are both to modal spells and to common Tutors. I would say that they are similar to both, probably closer in deck construction to Tutors but closer in play to modal spells, and they carry their own unique characteristics not shared by either modal spells or Tutors. Let's compare some cards to see how this could be true.

Tutors and Wishes are probably closest for deck construction purposes, but the results in play are quite different. Tutors and Wishes are put into a deck with the idea of allowing searches for specific cards included in the deck or sideboard, respectively. Compare Mystical Tutor vs Cunning Wish. Both would potentially be included in decks that want to play whatever card is needed from a specific set of instants, at whatever time the Tutor or Wish is drawn. The difference is that Wishes are much less powerful in this role than Tutors. When using a Wishboard, Cunning Wish will have less targets than most tutors, and all the targets are inaccessible for drawing. Given that, if you want to play a specific combination of instants, or play a specific one as quickly as possible, then the fact that Mystical Tutor can essentially act as a second copy of whichever of those instants is needed, and given that for Cunning Wish to have access to an instant, it needs to be inaccessible to normal draw due to being, by necessity, a card from outside the deck, it can never act as a second copy of any card. This means that Cunning Wish can't really function to speed up drawing a combo, and can't really increase consistency. Tutors are far more powerful than Wishes for enhancing the consistency in a deck than Wishes, at least as far as a singleton format goes. All bets are off if you are allowed 4 copies of a Wish in the main deck, 3 copies of the target in the main, and one copy in the sideboard. that essentially gives you 7 chances to draw any specific target card. This is not a factor in a singleton format, and a Wish can only ever search for a card that you cannot draw at all.

Wishes actually play more like a DIY modal spell than a Tutor. Consider Cryptic Command vs Cunning Wish. Cryptic Command allows you to choose two from a list of four great options. With Cunning Wish, you can choose one of up to ten options preselected from a list of all possible instants in the game (including Cryptic Command if you choose). Drawing and playing Cunning Wish substitutes the chosen instant, giving options but not an extra copy of any of the list of options. Consistency is in no way increased with Cunning Wish, in the same way that consistency is not increased with the use of modal spells like Cryptic Command, unless it can be used as a duplicate of another spell in the deck. Wishes behave in play similar to modal spells that you design yourself out of other complete cards.

The difference between Tutors and Wishes is that the target cards for Wishes will never be drawn, and the difference between Wishes and Modal spells is that a Wish can access more options than the preselected list printed on the Modal spell. This places the power of a Wish somewhere between that of a Tutor and a modal spell. That is arguably pretty powerful, but this is not the extent of it. The true difference and power of the Wishes is that their targets do not need to be in the deck. Targets can be cards that you would never include in the maindeck or would frequently be a dead draw, but would occasionally be an absolute bomb. Eliminating or decreasing the frequency of the dead draw can be considered a way to increase consistency, just not the way that Tutors usual increase consistency. You can also design your Wishboard with it's own mana curve, allowing the wishboard to be useable at any point in the game, decreasing the dead draw factor of cards even further. Wishboards can also be designed to incorporate a toolbox, effectively creating the opposite of a dead draw.

For Queen Marchesa: Politics, Aikido, and Control, Wishes could fit in this deck really well. I could easily add Tutors, but it is not lacking in consistency, so I am not sure this will enhance the deck any. I could add some modal spells, and I have several, but the ones not already in the deck don't seem to have enough options that would enhance the deck. I had been resisting adding some non-modal spells that were similar to some of the modal spells because they did not have enough use in that one mode to justify the card slot. By using a Wish or two, I could create a few DIY modal spells out of the single use spells that I thought that the deck could not accommodate, increase the options available, and enhance the complexity and interesting lines of play that this deck facilitates. Spells like Exsanguinate, Stronghold Discipline, Acidic Soil, Browbeat, Wheel of Fortune, Vindicate, Past in Flames, Damnation, Austere Command, and many other sorceries would all be great bombs as possible targets. Both Burning Wish and Death Wish would potentially be options for inclusions as Wishes. Toolbox options could include the archetype hosers like anti-graveyard antics cards, huge turnaround cards that I would never include otherwise like Reverse the Sands or Insurrection, and many other possibilities. This is an interesting new way of potentially developing this deck.

So what do you all think? This is obviously not a direction that every meta would facilitate, but I think it could be fun to explore. Are there cards that would be very useful in the Wishboard that would never fit in the main deck? I listed some that are my initial thoughts, but I am interested in any help that could be offered. I am interested in wincons, bombs, and toolbox cards. Given that there will only be two Wishes included, how many of the sorcery wincons could be moved to the Wishboard without compromising the offensive capabilities of the deck? Thanks ahead of time for any advice offered.

April 2, 2017 12:15 a.m.

Winterblast says... #14

Wishes do not only slow down the game because of the search time, they also slow down your own play...and, as you have said yourself, they do only give you spells that have been REMOVED from the deck, they don't increase the chance of finding a specific spell you want to play in the mainboard. It's cool though that wishes can give you a card back after is has been exiled by an opponent for some reason. I would still rather play all available (good) tutors in your colours than use wishes.

So, your playgroup has banned sol ring - what about the other mana artifacts? Personally I think that's a shame since it takes a lot of fun out of commander if you remove the potential speed. We had that discussion too, some people allegedly wanted to switch to French commander (but when asked, no one actually spoke in favour of such a change)...now the new players, who might have profited from a power reduction, have their decks pimped with Mana Crypt and other fastmana, worked hard on their manabase and managed to get their decks on a competitive level. I think there are like 2 or maybe 3 people around, who don't want to have fast gameplay, but as no one else wanted to give up their decks it's their own problem. I myself have one or two decks that don't play the good mana rocks, but thes decks are packed with global artifact hate to be able to compete with the other decks. Not even sol ring is a must play, for example if you run Null Rod, Kataki, War's Wage, Energy Flux, Titania's Song,...

April 3, 2017 4:37 a.m.

Winterblast, your assertions aren't totally accurate regarding Wishes. Wishes can't actually be used to play spells REMOVED from the game, because these have actually been errata'd to be exiled, and exiled is now an actual game zone, an in-game space for these cards. If your interpretation stated above is what you got from my post above, I am sorry. We have had a miscommunication. That is not at all what I intended for people to get from that post.

Wishes can only retrieve spells that did not start in the game, hence the common usage of a Wishboard, either as part of the use of a sideboard, or with the Wishboard being constructed exactly like a sideboard, but with the sole intention of being used as a Wishboard, not as a sideboard. I am going to refer you to a thread for the purpose of discussing Wishes in EDH that I started in another forum:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/773669-wishes-and-wishboards-in-commander#c9

The bottom line is that your interpretation of Wishes is not the typical reading of the rules with regards to Wishes, and actually is counter to the current rulings that incorporate a game zone for exiled/removed from game cards. There are other cards meant to return a card from the exile/removed from game zone, such as Pull from Eternity, but Wishes are not those cards. They function differently.

As for Sol Ring, I am not sure that you understand the reasoning behind banning Sol Ring in our group. None of us have Mana Crypt, otherwise that would be banned as well, but the other mana rocks are not the problem. There is a significant difference between the rocks that net you a mana and rocks that cost you a mana on the turn they are played, and Sol Ring nets a mana with no down side at all. It creates swingy games, and reduces the skill element of both play and deck building in favor of luck element in play and standardized decks in deckbuilding. If everyone needs a Sol Ring, then including one is not a deckbuilding skill thing. If playing one is basically a no brainer move, and is dependent on lucky early draws, not in any sort of complex decision making regarding how to spend your resources, then it is not a skill thing to play it. My play group is interested in skill elements over luck elements in play and deckbuilding, fun plays at the table, and when big swings happen, it should be due to fantastic card interactions, interesting card inclusions, and great tactical and strategic plays, not lucky draws of standard goodstuff auto-include cards, and Sol Ring is a goodstuff auto-include whose use in play highlights luck over skill. We all run ramp as a part of our decks, and our decks all end up being appropriately fast, but we feel Sol Ring belongs more in the category of ramp that includes the Moxen instead of the category that includes the signets, mana dorks, and things like Nature's Lore. The later are fun, the former are frustrating for everyone, potentially even the people playing them.

Anyway, thanks for the comment. I am interested in hearing your perspective after reading the thread that I pointed you toward above. Wishes are interesting, complicated, have significant potential for deckbuilding and play decision making, and are overall not more powerful or complicated than other cards with regards to the card pool available for EDH. I find it fun and interesting to hear about how they are currently interpreted by other players and play groups.

April 3, 2017 8:23 a.m.

Winterblast says... #16

Well, I knew what wishes did when they came out back then, and I didn't know the ability to target removed from the game cards doesn't work anymore. This means their use is more limited than years ago, because you only have access to your sideboard (or specific wishboard in commander), not cards that you have lost earlier in the game. I would play all sorts of tutors over wishes - as you've already mentioned in a comment above, wishes rather work as spells with modal effects, but if you look at them that way...it's very mana intensive! You basically add 3 mana to the spell you want to search for - are the spells in your sideboard still good if you always have to play the wish before getting them in your hand?

As for the mana rocks, I don't think they are a must play in a competitive deck, but if you aren't fast yourself you have to keep opponents from playing faster...you don't have to ban cards for that when there are numerous methods of making people curse their artifact-heavy mana base, that's what I meant. If someone runs like 33 lands or even less in a storm or stax deck and you land a turn one or turn 2 Null Rod all their power is gone immediately. it's like playing Armageddon against ridiculously fast land ramping...you can either join the speed run with your build, or act against it. If that decision was consensual in your playgroup it's fine, I just wanted to give an input from our local discussion and the point was that fastmana from artifacts is neither a matter of luck (because building a deck that consistently has 4+ mana available in turn 1 or 2 isn't a "no brainer" and you piloting such a deck often requires a lot of calculating and thinking) nor a must play.

April 3, 2017 8:47 a.m.

Got it. I agree, it takes thought to make your deck consistent from a mana base and ramp perspective. We just sort of objected to the idea that ever deck needs one. It was an arms race thing. When avery deck has one, then the thought is removed from the equation. By agreeing to not include it in our builds, it decreases the occasional swingy start, it opens up a slot for something interesting and not so common, and it doesn't hinder any deck from doing it's thing. We see no downside, aside from bucking tradition.

For the Wishes, that is my contention. Limiting them to a Wishboard leaves them with power, but not stupid power beyond what is available with other cards. It just opens up interesting lines of play not available otherwise. For both brewers and players, it can be fun. I do find objection to your statement about slowing down play. You have limited options, your search is not in your deck, and no shuffling necessary. Cards should be included with the same care as for your deck, and you should not play any serious jerk move cards. If your meta hates MLD< don't put it into your Wishboard either. If your meta does not like color specific hate, don't include it in your Wishboard. In play, you can often just play the Wish, pick up the Wishboard, pull out the card needed, and then play that card. This is unlike even Terramorphic Expanse, which requires a search of an entire deck, and a shuffle after, or Diabolic Tutor, with the same search of a 100 card deck and a shuffle after. They actually play much faster than most MTG search card if restricted to a Wishboard.

April 3, 2017 9:05 a.m.

Winterblast says... #18

I agree, decks with only one standard sol ring as acceleration do have a huge luck aspect. It's only interesting to play fast, when the speed is real...with the full set of legal moxen, mana crypt, mana vault, grim monolith, voltaic key and so on - or by actively preventing the use of these. Everything else indeed doesn't have much to do with skill. In our playgroup the newer players decided to get their decks sped up and we even have one infect player now.

What I meant is that by limiting yourself to spells that you can't just happen to draw, these wish cards have to be super effective in order to make the wish an optimal move at any time. Wasting a tutor for getting a mediocre spell isn't worth 2 or 3 extra mana, so the wishboard has to be full of killer spells...and if that's the case, the question remains: why not play these spells main?

I would say the wishboard has to be constructed as you would construct a sideboard in tournament play: specific cards against certain decks or deck types, which you don't assume to be at the table in EVERY game, plus cards that help you in dealing with certain situations for which you have no solution in the main deck.

April 3, 2017 9:26 a.m.

MegaMatt13 says... #19

My playgroup banned Sol Ring (as well as Mana Crypt) a while back and the net effect has been positive. It's added more to deck diversity and eliminated the lucky explosive starts of a turn 1 Sol Ring. At first I was skeptical about banning cards like that, but I have to admit that it's created a more casual, relaxed atmosphere which is what my group is going for. We've banned Cyclonic Rift and Deadeye Navigator for similar reasons.

April 3, 2017 1:16 p.m.

Winterblast, our group seems to have a gentleman's agreement on the sideboard at this point. No specific color hate, no color specific MLD to side in, and no one plays cards that people hate playing against, even in the sideboard. We all side things that are powerful counters to deck archetypes, answers to specific game states that are recurrent but not common, and ways to slightly shift the focus of each deck to better handle certain match ups. Generic graveyard hate or Pyroblast is OK, but Karma or Boil is out. This keeps the powerful cards that are infrequently used out of the main deck, but allows each deck to overcome bad match ups when they pop up, without playing unfun cards. The sideboard should be a storehouse of bombs and answers that you usually don't want to draw, but occasionally would love to have. In this case, Wishes can actually speed up games because the sideboard does not need to be used until it is needed in game, and then it is quick to access what is needed. No tough decisions about what to side in or out delaying the start of a game. What you need is either in the sideboard or it's not, and you know you need it because the game is underway and you now need it. I think that a sideboard is a nice way to make Wishes more fun and work better, and Wishes are a nice way to make a sideboard more fun and work better. I think I would want both if I had either.

MegaMatt13, I anticipate our change will be very similar. I think that it will be a good thing. For our group, infinite combos are frowned on, Stax is considered unfun and frowned on, specific color hate is frowned on, and outside of my 8 year old son, MLD is frowned on. Even for my son, I have recently snuck the MLD out of his deck without him paying attention. Even that was after he had multiple games where he played an Armageddon and I responded with Boros Charm to win the game. We have not banned any of these things, but our polite unspoken agreement has been that no one likes playing against them, so no one brings decks in these styles. The Sol Ring has been our first ban, and no one had fun against an explosive Sol Ring powered win, no one felt really great after winning on the back of an early Sol Ring, but no one wanted to be the only person to depower their deck, because it is the best at what it does. So we talked, and now I think we are all happier that it is gone.

April 3, 2017 5:07 p.m.

Winterblast says... #21

I think it's hard to argue about what is considered an "unfun" sideboard card, as every specific hate you would put in a sideboard greatly reduces the fun for the one who gets hurt by it the most. A turn 0 Leyline of the Void is not even very specific, but for a mono b reanimator it absolutely sucks (and he can't even get rid of it anymore). This is why we play without sideboards - we put the hate main or leave it. But we have mostly combo/control here, I often play Stax myself and there's a hermit druid and arcum dagsson as well as infect as possible opponents. We probably have a different definition of fun then, lol. I think we could never agree which kind of sick plays are cool and which ones are not, so we have to stick to the official banlist.

April 3, 2017 6:22 p.m.

Winterblast, I think that is a common situation. I think that the official banlist is designed to appeal to the greatest amount of players, but that local adjustment is also ideal. We talk a lot about what is fun for us, and have come to the understanding that it is OK for us not to play certain styles of decks or certain cards, because it limits how much fun others around us have. Fun is subjective, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't assess other people's experience of it. For us, we have a medium sized meta, with certain decks being much more frequent opponents than others. Allowing color hate for the most common opponents is unfun because we hose the decks of the regulars and are unprepared for the rotators. By preparing for common deck archetypes, but sideboarding them as much as possible, we can quickly adjust to shifting attendance. A Wishboard seems to be a good way to facilitate this.

As a slight aside, the Wishboard is an interesting study in the psychology of gaming and gamers. For me, when I play this deck, I have more fun being in the position of thinking, "I wish I would just draw that one needed card." than when I am in the position of thinking, "What a waste of a draw." The multimodal cards in this list are a reflection of this, and it plays really well this way. A Wishboard will likely be a good way to go further down this pathway, allowing me to play some cards that occasionally I will use, but never having to draw them. I am curious to see how they play in the longer term, because I have heard from a few people that a Wish for a bomb feels like a cheap trick when played against them. These people often recount tales of binder search Wishes, not preselected Wishboards, so we shall see how they play out.

April 3, 2017 7:54 p.m.

Randy_Randy says... #23

I like how you have Price of Progress but absolutely no basic lands.

April 7, 2017 10:11 p.m.

Price of Progress is probably the biggest bomb in the deck. Don't live in fear! Play it! The suite of bounce lands, Lotus Vale, Scorched Ruins, and mana rocks all helps. Delaying Shield and Solitary Confinement do too. The CMC vs damage potential for that card is crazy.

April 7, 2017 11:33 p.m.

cerealkyra says... #25

How about Gonti, Lord of Luxury? Subterfuge attached to a rattlesnake. Love the deck.

April 8, 2017 3:05 a.m.

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