Rampaging Baloths

ninjaman16782: Rampaging Baloths is ok, but a bit slow. And ultimately I can't easily use it to combo.

would you be able to make a version of this...persay if you didnt have a cash restriction like players that play on untap or cockitrice. and what about Krosan Verge?

The only real money cards the deck is missing are a Gaea's Cradle, Wasteland and the rest of the fetches (well that and a DCI Survival of the Fittest). Given infinite funds I would probably add a Mana Crypt and maybe Three Visits however I'm not entirely sure what I would cut for them.

I used to run Krosan Verge. It's ok in a slower build, but I find these days I want my mana ASAP and having to wait a turn then having to sink mana to then have to wait a turn is too slow and ultimately not worth it.

oh okay i just thought with lotus cobra and suntitan that just asks for a lot of lands

The land count is at a good place and the deck has no shortage of mana. I run 15+ ramp cards and with my commander I can recur a lot of them. The Lotus Cobra with things like Crucible of Worlds or Knight of the Reliquary is a powerhouse.

As for Sun Titan, the deck has no problem playing it quickly. Keep in mind though its the second highest CMC in the deck and as combo goes, I only need a cmc of 5 to combo off.

I suppose I can also see Tooth and Nail as emergency Combo- Grab an Inquisitor Exarch and Reveillark if you have a sack outlet, or maybe a sun titan to recur Blasting Station along with an Acidic Slime to blow up that Leyline of Sanctity; it's also high curve, but a resolved Tooth and Nail with entwine should win you the game most of the time. Just a thought.

Tooth and Nail is a card I've actively kept off this list for a while. I used to run it when the deck was much slower and it was ok (that is the deck, the card itself is nuts). If I ran it now I think it would be quite powerful, only problem is that in the league I play in we have it banned, so its easier to just leave it out of the deck.

At the moment the deck is running Kodama's Reach over Sol Ring and Craterhoof Behemoth over Enlightened Tutor which are also banned in the league. Depending on the season and the crowd we are trying to draw, our league will ban certain types if cards, fast mana, tutors, etc. But TaN (along with Prophet of Kruphix) are always auto banned.

Maybe one day I will find space for it, but for now I'm not overly fussed.

That being said, its probably worth a mention in the primer.

I would add Naturalize, otherwise a card like Ground Seal would make you very sad.

I've never actually come up against Ground Seal, however cards like Rest in Peace are annoying. I run Qasali Pridemage, Acidic Slime, Beast Within, Oblation and Aura Shards at the moment to deal with them which seems to be enough, especially with the creature tutors on top of that.

Love the deck! I only have one suggestion that I haven't seen anyone else make, and that's Greater Good. This already amazing card has increadible synergy with your existing strategy. It serves as a sac outlet with the added bonus of drawing you a TON of cards. You mentioned that top-decking can be an issue, so this card could definitely help mitigate that. Also, if you only have access to the recursion part of your engine (and not an actual finisher) it allows you to dump as much of your deck as you want into your grave so that you can simply reanimate that card and win the game. I don't really see any downside to it! Hope this advice is helpful.

Cheers for the feedback Solelyselesnya, its nice to know people like the deck :D

As for Greater Good, this is a card I have spent some time thinking about but have come to the conclusion that I don't think it will be as good with this version of Saffi as with others. Because a decent chunk of my creatures are 1/X or 2/X it means that at the end of the day, I'm net losing cards and if I'm top decking, that means that I just stay top decking.

The only creatures in the deck that are an exception o this are things like Wurmcoil Engine, Twilight Shepherd and Sun Titan. But if I have them down, I'd rather be swinging for value than sacing them.

You're right in that if I can get Saffi Eriksdotter and Sun Titan / Reveillark down then I can draw to my combo, however it feels slightly too niche for me. Don't get me wrong, if I was running things like Woodfall Primus, Thragtusk and other big creatures was happy to sac, then Greater Good would be in the deck without a second thought.

I've played a fair bit of combo Saffi myself, and there are a couple cards that haven't been mentioned yet that at least merit some testing in your list.

If your meta is at all aggressive, Peacekeeper is an incredible tool that can effectively lock combat oriented decks down indefinitely.

Gaddock Teeg and Aven Mindcensor are similar in effect for combo decks. While Teeg shuts off a couple of your own cards, not loosing to random combo is well worth it in my experience.

As others have mentioned, Stoneforge Mystic is great as an easily tutorable second copy of Skullclamp.

Chord of Calling also did tons of work for me, especially in conjunction with silver bullet cards Teeg and Peacekeeper.

Reclamation Sage and possibly Harmonic Sliver are also great, giving you alternatives to the Slime and Pridemage. Depends on how important that effect is in your playgroup.

Since you have most of the other pieces already, I'd recommend trying the Boonweaver Giant combo in the list, which would only involve adding the namesake creature and Pattern of Rebirth which ends up being good in Saffi even without the combo applications.

If you decide to give Boonweaver a try, Greater Good, Academy Rector, and Sterling Grove are some excellent support cards that can really kick a mediocre hand into overdrive. For example, a hand of Sterling Grove and five lands easily wins the game on turn six, and possibly on turn five.

TheMadMinstrel: Thankyou for the feedback, it's always nice to meet other Saffi players.

As for the suggestions:

• Peacekeeper is cool, however I don't like the constant mana investment. I also run Spore Frog, which while it doesn't stop attack triggers (which can be relevant) I find to be a better deterrent since my opponents can still attack each other freely.

• For a hatebear build, Gaddock Teeg and Aven Mindcensor are cool, but I find both to be a bit underwhelming outside of that. Teeg unfortunately shuts down too much of my deck to be worthwhile, as he hits my high end ramp spells / some of my power enchantments / GSZ which are all super important to the deck. Aven Mindcensor isn't bad but is very situational. he shuts down a lot though. I might have to add it to the maybeboard though.

• All in all, I'm actually not that fussed about Skullclamp. Don't get me wrong, its a great card, but I have specifically designed the deck not to have a reliance on it. And while I habe Nim Deathmantle, I feel like the equipment count is a bit low to justify Stoneforge, especially at the price she is.

• I used to run Chord of Calling. Its a good card, I just found it slightly too slow. That being said, I'm pretty sure I carry it around with the deck so I can swap it in pregame if I feel like it.

• I've thought about Rec Sage before (I don't see the point in running Harmonic Sliver, its juts a harder costed Rec Sage with worse stats). I have Aura Shards to emulate the effects of both as well as slime / pridemage which you recommended. I also have Archon of Justice which is amazing. The reason I run a mix is because some of the destruction triggers off ETB, some is activated, some is on death - it means that I have options even if somebody plays a Torpor Orb / Hushwing Gryff. As for the slime over Rec Sage, well I like the fact that it can hit lands too.

• I've been on the fence with Pattern of Rebirth. On the whole, creature tutoring isn't something that the deck has many problems with, the biggest issue I find is getting something like Blasting Station. As for Boonweaver Giant, while it has some favourable interactions with pattern and Gift of Immortality I feel the scope of the card is too narrow for the deck, especially compared to Sun Titan.

• I used to run Sterling Grove but found it wasn't worth it. Maybe if I was running more enchantments that I could combo with it might be beneficial, but for now its a bit of a dead draw. Same thing applies with Academy Rector.

• Greater Good is a card I've had mentioned a few times. If I did include the Boonweaver ther could be an arguement for it maybe, however I would probably have to cut a bigger creature (to keep the curve good). So even then I would only have a few creatures that could actually interact favourably with Greater Good. At that point, I still just see it as a dead card too much. It's nice, but I think it works much better in big creature beater decks.

I get that Sterling Grove can fetch an enchantment, but with it (or even it and Boonweaver Giant) how would I combo off turn 5/6? I need Blasting Station / Altar of Dementia to achieve that and then I still need to draw into them. That has always been the basis for why I have shaped my deck the way I have and why I have less focus on creature tutors and more focus on raw card advantage.

Thanks for the thorough response. In retrospect, I made suggestions based on how cards performed in my list, not necessarily how well they would mesh with yours, which was an oversight. Unfortunately, I neither have the list online or in front of me, so I can't show you exactly what I was working with. However, it was significantly more low to the ground, with many mana dorks and plenty of utility two and three drops.

• Peacekeeper is very situational, but I found that on the rare occasion I actually payed to keep it around (Sun Titan works nicely), I was happy with the investment. Meta call though.

• Teeg does turn off more of your deck than I expected, my bad on that.

• Budgetary concerns over Stoneforge are perfectly reasonable as she's a relatively minor upgrade. She does, however, allow you to try some interesting angles. For example, my most recent version of the list was running a Demonmail Hauberk. Awful sac outlet, but fetchable off any creature tutor thanks to Stoneforge.

• Chord's effectiveness is inversely proportional to the average cost of your creatures, your curve is high enough that I can understand why you are unimpressed.

• Do you understand how Boonweaver works? It singlehandedly wins the game with a sac outlet and Pattern in the 99. The reason it's so good is that all the pieces are good on their own. If you don't understand the combo I'll be happy to explain it, it's just a bit involved. Pattern is a combo piece as well as an enabler, allowing things like T2 Saffi, T3 Sac outlet, T4 Pattern on Saffi, win the game.

• Rector and Sterling Grove (and the Idyllic Tutor I ran) are nearly exclusively support for Greater Good and Pattern, though I did run some other nice utility enchantments like Privileged Position and Earthcraft.

• Sterling Grove shenanigans work thusly:

T2: Saffi

T3: Grove, EOT crack Grove -> Pattern

T4: Drop Pattern on Saffi, EOT sac Saffi, Pattern gets Sun Titan, which grabs Grove

T5: Upkeep crack Grove -> Greater Good, Drop Greater Good, attack with Titan reviving Saffi, draw your deck.

If you have enough free mana in your list (Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Diamond, etc.) you win on the spot, otherwise you sculpt your hand for next turn.

• Something I forgot the first time around is the interaction of Loyal Retainers with Saffi. The loop they create is only useful for stuff triggering off ETB (Catthar's Crusade, Aura Shards, Suture Priest), tapping (Earthcraft), or dying (Skullclamp, Gutter Grime). If you ever add Earthcraft, I'd make sure to add the Retainers as well.

TheMadMinstrel - (sorry it took me a while to get back to your post), That's cool, without knowing a meta it can be really hard to recommend cards (not even taking people's playstyles into account).

On the whole, the curve ofthe deck is high (sometimes a bit higher than I would like) but I run 15-20 dedicated ramp effects (some of which I can abuse to no end) so mana is usually not that much of a problem. I know everybody says that about their decks though and with that in mind my next big buy for the deck is hopefully going to be a Gaea's Cradle. Expensive I know but totally worth it. Then comes Mana Crypt as you suggested :P (along with the rest of the fetches).

I should say now budget wise - I have no problem dropping some cash on a card if I think it will make the deck that much faster. In the case of Stoneforge Mystic I would be happy to drop the cash if it helped the deck more, But in this case I don't think its worth it. Now if I had good combo equipment (since Nim Deathmantle is too conditional to combo off with) then I would probably spring for one.

I get that you can run Boonweaver Giant with things like Gift of Immortality etc, the problem is it's just too conditional in my eyes. Even if I added Pattern of Rebirth, it would still only work with 2 cards in the deck. I get that if you have Pattern you can get some wicked value but then you're eating up an entire card slot just for one card support.

As for the Sterling Grove, it's pretty cool. My only issue with it is that you're leaving too many combo pieces too exposed for too long. The problem is thta my meta consists of two types of decks - control decks and super value decks. The control decks run lots of removal and the value decks are just too fast for me. so I much prefer to ramp hardcore to begin with and slow the value decks down enough that I can combo out first. The danger with the combo you listed was that I spend all my resources and leave my combo unprotected and one well timed reomval spell effectively leaves me stalled.

As for Loyal Retainers, they're nice but alongside other cards (such as Kitchen Finks, Melira, Sylvok Outcast, etc.) it just feels like more redundancy on the stuff I don't need redundancy on. I'd much rather run a Tooth and Nail to just fetch the combo since I can use to get value if I need. The thing that usually slows me down is getting an altar, not a combo loop. There's a section in the primer about it, I don't know if you've had a look?

On the whole though, I really appreciate the input. It makes me think about the cards I run and questions my choices which is important. It means I have proper justifications about the cards I run / don't run and the ones that are underperforming get upgraded.

If you ever put your Saffi list back together, let me know, I'd be super keen to see it.

I don't understand your stance on Boonweaver and Pattern. It's a lot less situational than stuff like Masked Admirers, considering that if you have a sac outlet in play, either card basically wins the game on the spot.

But if that's the case why not just run Tooth and Nail? It would get me my combo creatures on the spot and take up one less card slot.

Masked Admirers is card draw. It just happens to work really well with Survival of the Fittest for extra advantage. And as I said, usually the hardest part of any combo is getting the sac outlet.

That being said, I'll have a bit more of a look into Pattern of Rebirth and Boonweaver Giant. I'm still not 100% sold on it, but I'll have a look.

It hasn't been updated in a year or so, but here is my list.

You seem too attached to your deck to make any fundamental changes, so I don't really have much else to add to the conversation.

TheMadMinstrel: Its looks like a cool list.

Its not about being too attached to make fundamental changes. I used to run a lot more sac loops in the deck. But as I've said before, and as you've mentioned, for the most part the combo is hinging on getting a repeatable sac outlet. And since I run mainly recursion loop creatures, just adding more sac outlets doesn't help.

The other issue is that looking at your deck, you aren't very heavy on removal and even lighter on creature removal. You run a small amount of proactive hatebear effects, but in my meta you need removal. And a lot of it.

Its a combination of these things that make me wary to change the deck. Not to mention that without having Saffi down, the boonweaver combo can fetch Karmic Guide and Reveillark (where at this point boonweaver is in your graveyard) but as I've said, so can Tooth and Nail. And sure, if Saffi is out you can get some extra mileage, but if I have Saffi and a sac combo I'm only one piece off winning to begin with. Which then just makes it feel like another recursion loop combo that the deck already has enough of. And I'd much rather put in a Tooth and Nail or a Chord of Calling as they take up less card slots and are useful for more things.

As I've said before, I do appreciate the input and I will give it more thought, but for now that's why I'm not in a rush to put it in the deck.

I guess it's a difference in metagame. I find Saffi performs better for me set up to be proactive and fast (turn 4-5 average) over disruptive.

Rereading your writeup, I've run into another fundamental difference. You run value sac outlets and valueless loops, while I tend to run value loops and valueless sac outlets. This allows me to run more sac outlets (three more than you I believe), enough to consistently hit at least one.

As I suspected, you don't understand how Boonweaver works. This is how the loop is set up:

• Sac any creature wearing Pattern, trigger gets Boonweaver which pulls pattern out of grave
• Sac Boonweaver, trigger gets Karmic Guide, gets back Boonweaver and Pattern
• Sac Boonweaver, trigger gets Fiend Hunter, exiles Karmic Guide
• Sac Fiend Hunter, Karmic Guide gets Boonweaver gets Pattern
• Sac Karmic Guide
• Sac Boonweaver, Pattern gets Reveillark
• Sac Reveillark, get Karmic Guide (Reveillark) and Fiend Hunter (Karmic Guide)
• Sac Fiend Hunter, Karmic Guide gets Boonweaver

At this point there is a stable loop that allows you to put any number of creatures from your library into play, and loop any number of creatures in and out of your graveyard an infinite number of times. With your list, at this point you can just find the Exarch and kill the table.

So you're using the one extra intermediate step to get Fiend Hunter. Assuming he's still in the deck you're using it as a fill in Saffiesque effect. It is complicated as hell, which kind of makes me like more :P

As for the value outlets, I much prefer it that way yeah. While it makes,the deck less combotastic, it means I can run a lot of other non recursion value creatures (like cantrip creatures, Avenger of Zendikar, etc.) and outside of combo get more value from them.

Traditionally I'm a combo control player (I like blue :P) so it kind of shows in all my decks. That's why I'll usually wait a turn just to amass the parts and play them all in one turn as opposed to attempting to slam combo after combo. Its also another reason why I'm not a fan of Martyr's Cause and those kind of sac outlets. While they do an adequate job, I just see them as wasted space as they feel so blech (if that's a word) outside of comboing off with them.

Its really interesting to see how different players build the same decks. That's why I really do appreciate the input. And ill tell you what, if they ever released an aura that just had "sac a creature: Get some benefit" (in green white of course) I'm pretty sure I'd make space for the boonweaver combo immediately :P. At that point it would be too good to pass up. At the moment I'm still on the fence about it though.