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Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.
Torpor Orb Discussion
2 weeks ago
Tzefick: I read through the original post, but I want to circle back to it later. And you will have to excuse the order in general, I was responding to this across the course of a day.
On artifact removal
There are a few points to unpack here. The first, and most importantly, is that removal is a big part of Magic, the Gathering and honestly, is what makes games (and deckbuilding) interesting. IF MtG was just about amassing board states and then slamming big creatures into other big creatures, the game would be much more boring (not to mention take much longer). But your argument here basically boils down to "artifacts are bad because they die to removal". I get that there are a bunch of good artifact removal cards, but that doesn't mean that we should stop leaning into artifacts because of it.
As for dealing with removal (especially mass removal) - there are still many options that white already has access to which does actually allow them to ramp. Wayfarer's Bauble , Burnished Hart , Solemn Simulacrum , Kor Cartographer , Knight of the White Orchid are all perfectly valid land ramp cards. Sure, the average CMC of these spells is higher than their green counterparts, however green is THE ramp colour, so it would be expecteded that there would be hihger costs/more contitions to be met for other colours to do a similar thing. And that's without even touching on cards like Sword of the Animist or Explorer's Scope which are both equipment and what white excels at.
In addition to this, while not ramping, white already has access to cards like Weathered Wayfarer , Land Tax , and Tithe which allow you to consistently hit your lands. While not as good as outright ramping, if you're hitting your lands each turn, you're genereally not doing too badly. And when combined with other ramp effects, by mid to late game you still end up with as much mana as most players.
Now onto the artifacts. Yes, there are a lot of good artifact removal effects which can slow players down. But I would also point out a few things here too.
Mana dorks are a very common form of ramp in commander. Most green decks will run a bunch of them and there are even strategies (elf ball) which almost solely relies on them. But just as artifacts can be hated on, white has some of THE best creature removal in the game. This includes both single target but also mass removal, which can severely hamper your opponents with regards to ramp. And unlike green (who is the main comparison point here), white doesn't rely on mana dorks, leaving you relatively unaffected from a mana standpoint.
In addition to this, white has a lot of ways of protecting your stuff from being destroyed, whether it's indestructible, hexproof, just an outright Teferi's Protection (which yes you did mention), or more importantly shutting down an opponent's removal source using Torpor Orb effects, of which white has many. Sure, this doesn't stop everything, but it can shut down a lot of (especially green) big bad ones. We are seeing a lot of these printed in new sets, to the point where WotC are really trying to drive home the point that "this is what white does".
Ok, now circling back (And I will do this more than once) and picking up on my previous paragraph. On the topic of land ramp - white is very good at shutting down this. between all of the MLD, Balance type effects and library shutdown effects like Aven Mindcensor , white hating on green's land ramp is to green hating on artifacts (i.e. white's main ramp source). Again I reiterate, this is what white does. It has been made abundantly clear, since we have time and time again seen printing of cards that equalise the board, to take away other players' advantages. So again I push the point that white is capable, however the issue here is that it's not the way you (or some other casule commander players) want it to be. But again, that's not white's shortfall.
On Graveyard Recursion
This topic follows on from the whole artifact removal thing. Yes, white is very strong in graveyard recursion. And just to touch on one of your points, even recently white got a bunch of graveyard recursion via cards like Daring Archaeologist and Restoration Specialist . Not repeatable sure, but still decent. And let's face it, any mono-white commander product is going to see Sun Titan reprinted. But back to the whole recusrion thing in general - while white is good at recursion, it's permanent based, not specifically land based. Yes, this overlaps (especially in the case of Sun Titan ) but here it's just a bit of nice value.
Land recursion is very much a green thing (I'm not even going to list the cards) and that makes sense. But for white, the recursion is generally symmetric if en masse. And again, this makes sense. White is good at wrecking stuff, so it's also good at bringing stuff back. But the point is that just because you wreck stuff and bring it back symmetrically doesn't mean that you can't exile a graveyard or two in the middle. Ok, but what's my concern with what you're recommending (both across the board but let's talk specifics)?
So, fundamentally I have no issues with the release of white cards which can return permanents from the graveyard to the battlefield, and fundamentally I have no issues with pairing these cards with any kind of fetchlands to ramp. As you mentioned, we have the new Sevinne's Reclamation and Brought Back alongside Sun Titan and Profound Journey .
Where I have issue in this case is not with the concept of having a cheaper spell that hits smaller stuff, but in this case your suggestion. Unforntunately, ther is a fine line between being able to be used early game for ramp purposes and just being broken. The card you proposed is similar in effect to Unearth , though it being able to hit any permanent for 2 mana (yes, even CMC 2 or less) is super good. That means that in legacy it can hit cards like Young Pyromancer , Snapcaster Mage (to get other spells even at sorcery, like itself for example), Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Wasteland , etc. as well as potentially getting another permanent too. It just seems way too powerful. Sure, we could start tweaking the mana costs/effects but I think you would end up with effectively a functional reprint of Sevinne's Reclamation . And look, if that's what you're going for then that's fine. But that's the danger with working under the guise of returning permanents while focusing on lands.
As for the land sepcific recursion effect though, this just seems out of charater (and heavily moving into green's territory). Just because one card was printed, which again did a symmetric effect (almost seems good with Armageddon + Tormod's Crypt ...) does not mean that it's a shoo-in for more cards to be printed like that. Planar Birth was printed inthe same set as Catastrophe and it seems like those cards were designed to play well with each other. As for hitting land drops each turn, I have no issues with this (hell, I even mentioend it before) and to aid in the available "non-good fetch" fetches, you have Terramorphic Expanse , Evolving Wilds , Myriad Landscape , Grasslands , Flood Plain , Bant Panorama , Esper Panorama , Naya Panorama , Warped Landscape , Terminal Moraine and Thawing Glaciers . That's a pretty good collection of budget fetch effects that already exist. And between Scaretiller , Sun Titan , Sevinne's Reclamation and Crucible of Worlds (and in conjuction with other ramp) there are already options there.
Again, I will double down on my argument that if you look, these cards already exist and can be made to work together in a deck. Yes, Crucible of Worlds has ~$25 USD price tag (at the time of writing this) however that is not too exorbitant for a strong EDH card.
On Other Colours
I get that each colour has its strengths and weaknesses and that when you put all of them alongside each other there will always be a worst colour. But I don't think that's a bad thing. White is an incredibly powerful colour outside of commander, and as a second colour, white is still super good. But mono-white has to have a weakness. In this case, it's slow. Buat again, that's done for a reason - because white represents balance. White might be slow, but it will do a really good job of slowing you down with it. And again, I get that ther will be a group of players who don't want to play all of the stax cards for fear of getting other poeple's backs up. But what about the players who don't care about that? you've now just armed a bunch of people with ramp and draw with their existing supply of stax. Think of how much worse that will be.
Now onto red (since you touched on it) - yes, WotC have come up with a nice balance for red's card advantage (in that it matches red's ramp style) - momentary bursts of value. Rituals and exile - you use it or you lose it kind of effects, which makes sense (and which you pointed out). But it's all done within the bounds of the colour pie still. But everything about white screams that it's card advantage is making sure your opponents don't have cards.
While I believe that commander should be avaialble to anyone, there are some cold, hard facts: Some people can spend more than others, and, not everybody within a playgroup has the same budget.
The cards I listed before were budgetless and in most cases, the best of the best. And I understand that only a small portion of commander players actually own said cards. But there are always alternative cards at all budgets, they just may not be as desirable. But that's where my double standard comment came in, which is "if you want to play a colour that doens't have good ramp, but still want the best ramp then either pay the money to buy the good (read "expensive") stuff or deal with the fact that you can't/won't buy it." I don't think that's an unfair statement, and it's a slippery slope once you start pandering to it.
But again, if ther is a budget discrepency within a playgroup then I also don't think that it is WotC's responsiblity to fix it. This is something that the players have to own and is an entire discussion point in an of itself, so I will leave that there. But I think most players would agree with me on this.
On Other Players
Here's where we get to brass tacks (if we haven't already), I wouldn't agree with you on the comment that "a large portion of the commander community" thinks that mono-white needs fixing. Ther eare some poeple, sure. And those people might make a lot of noise about it, but that doesn't mean it's the majority of players. I know that most players who I interact with would agree wiht my viewpoint on it.
And don't get me wrong, I play both casual and competitive lists, I work full time and have funds available to afford nicer cards. A casual list for me sits in the $400-500 range. But before you discount my opinion becasue fo that, hear me out. I have looked at many, many, many lists on tapped out, ranging from <$100 to >$5000 and have learnt a lot over the years. Typically the things I notice is that the kinds of poeple who complain about a lack of XYZ have also employed a lot of bad deck-building practices (no, I'm not implying this on your lists). Really heavy mana curves, little ramp to begin with, high CMC ramp, lack of focused win conditions, all that good stuff. And I'm not saying that the decks are completely unplayable, but a lot of them are really clunky and slow. And I won't begrudge people for building those decks. But if your average CMC is 4.5 and then you're complaining that your deck is slow, that's becasue of the card choices you made. However bad deckbuilding is not WotC's fault.
So compared to those poeple, I will be a bit arrogant and say I undstand balance better than them, yes. But, and more importantly, so does WotC - because they seem to be printing more stax cards for white as sets come out, but not more ramp and card advantage which would fix the non-problem.
2 weeks ago
You need more reliable ways to deal with Torpor Orb , Hushwing Gryff , and Hushbringer because if they land they will make your deck quite useless. That Reclamation Sage in your hand would love to blow up Torpor Orb... too bad it doesn't work anymore. Good spot removal like Abrupt Decay , Beast Within , Return to Nature , Assassin's Trophy , etc. These are ESSENTIAL for a Yarok deck because the above cards really do wreck you.
You might want to invest in some lower cost mana ramp options like 1 CmC mana dorks and some more of the 2 CmC draw creatures. This ism aninly to lower your mana curve and let you go off a bit faster.
2 weeks ago
SideBae unfortunately "as it enters" is not an ETB trigger. ETB triggers have the distinct text starting the sentence with "When", "Whenever", and "If."
Your deck seems solid but I would suggest adding in some more draw power. There are easy to mention (but expensive) cards like Rhystic Study and Sylvan Library but Yarok can enhance effects like Guardian Project and Soul of the Harvest to become very potent. There are plenty of 2-3 CmC creatures that have a draw ETBs that are worth considering as well.
Creature tutors can be even more valuable than generic tutors. I suggest including Eldritch Evolution , Neoform , Prime Speaker Vannifar , and Birthing Pod to turn your used ETB bodies into fodder to find even more creatures with ETBs.
Some of Yarok's most hidden gems are cards that simply let you do more of what you are already doing. Phantasmal Image , Temur Sabertooth , Bramble Sovereign , Progenitor Mimic , Ghostly Flicker , Repudiate / Replicate , Rite of Replication , Mimic Vat , and Crystal Shard are great examples that allow you do copy or reuse ETB effects.
Make sure you include Instant and sorceries for removal because nothing suck more than getting stuck by a Torpor Orb when all of your removal is ETB based. Krosan Grip , Force of Vigor , Return to Nature , Nature's Claim , Beast Within , etc.
3 weeks ago
My environment will mostly consist of tons of various aggro/tempo Tribal decks like Elves/Treefolk/Ninjas/Spirits/Faeries and Naya Small Zoo and Bant Blink/Wish Control centered around Venser, the Sojourner / Glittering Wish hence why I was pretty focused on Torpor Orb but I think graveyard hate/permanent removal should be able to stop Time Warp / Eternal Witness shenanigans.)... other things pop up here and there but those are the most common decks I'll be facing.
I was hoping proliferate would help me "speed up" kiora but I agree 9/10 I found myself wishing Steady Progress was just a Fog ... Currently I'm trying out Gigadrowse and so far it seems to be pretty effective; make me wanna also try Sleep / Downpour .
A full playset of Kiora seems pretty necessary to me so far in playtesting... im able to easily stall out a game to T12 but even then i've had plenty of cases of not drawing a single kiora just run out of Fogs by the time I do get one....otherwise at least a means to Tutor her... Thats why i was experimenting with Silent Arbiter but he is just too high CMC/hard to protect... Tamiyo, the Moon Sage might be really good in here as being a possible "target fog" or maybe even a one-sided mass draw... I have 2x copies of her so its a possibility; but might cost too much CMC?
definitely agree that Kiora, the Crashing Wave is a bit of a challenge to reach as a wincon but I really wanna feel rewarded when I get wins...she's a pet card of mine/my fiance and a steady stream of 9/9 Krakens is just too funny. (basically because of opponents using shock lands I just need to get 2 that can attack and then Whelming Wave / Gigadrowse G.G.)
3 weeks ago
Two questions for you....
- How do you win? (Possible wincon can be self-mill through Lab maniac or Jace Weilder of mystery. You could include a leveler and Torpor Orb package). Or are you set on aethurflux, I don't see how you storm out?
- How do you plan on protecting your planeswalker?
While I don't have an answer for either of those crucial questions (yet, a bit tired at the moment), here are some general good stuff recommendations that you might like to consider
Riptide Laboratory to reuse wizard ETBs and for protection.
Snapcaster Mage - No explanation required
Gilded Drake - Because f*** the opponent's commander
Ixidron - Acts a blue "board wipe" that fucks with everyone's commander except yours (Note: His ETB still works with torpor orb)
Future Sight - Yes it's costly, yes they get to see the cards you draw (mostly counterspells and draw anyways) but it allows you to dig DEEP and hit land drops. With a (relatively) higher CMC than usual and such few lands, it might be worth considering.
Minamo, School at Water's Edge to untap your commander and nykthos
Maze of Ith to protect your commander
Sensei's Divining Top - Dreidel Dreidel Dreidel, oh Dreidel I shall play!
I'm a fan of the extra turn package in blue. At worst, it becomes an explore that allows you to activate your commander again. At best, it allows you to go ham on your opponents. I strongly recommend you consider it.
What kind of direction do you want this deck to go in?
3 weeks ago
- When you build a SB it is used to solve probelms your deck struggles with. Mindbreak Trap solves against storm and thats about it. If you are fighting a lot of storm go ahead itll help when you draw it. Otherwise dont. Damping Sphere is great in that match up and good in other match ups so it is a better SB.
- Beast Within is interesting. What cards are problems? It most likely isnt a creature beacuse you are fog. So that leaves artifacts, enchantments, and lands. You are in green so there are 1 and 2 mana cards that solve the first two. Like Nature's Claim and Force of Vigor
- needle is a good choice
- Torpor Orb is not that great of a card to SB. There are better solutions in budget. ETBs are not that powerful in my opinon. Playing that weakens your deck. Graveyard decks are very common and powerful, and consistent. Play Tormod's Crypt
- Negate is a great card for stopping counter magic on your fog, I would almost prefer Dispell or Swan Song It leaves more mana open for cards like fog.
3 weeks ago
@abbatromebone I agree... maybe Veil of Summer mist be the "new" or "better" option for Turbofog over Dispel / Negate ...can also slap down Thoughtseize so i like that a lot... or perhaps just in the SB along with the others depending on the matchup... ill look into it for sure.
currently this is what my sideboard is shaping up to be
4x Beast Within For addressing resolved permantants that just need to go... i figure the 3/3 token should be completly negated in turbofog so that should be golden removal in theory.
2x Mindbreak Trap I think could be good to just slow down anyone with lots of cantrips or stormy decks.
3x Negate : straight up noncreature counterspell.
2x Pithing Needle resolved planswalkers primarily.
May be Kiora, Master of the Depths could also help out with Genesis and Spore Frog ?... and if i splashed white i can see the possibility of integrating Kami of False Hope too...I currently dont think this is the way i wanna go because i really wanna try to stay simic for budget reasons (mostly mana base issues); but definitely an idea to be explored.... ill work up a theoretical "fog re-animator style" decklist and see where the price tag would end up.
1 month ago
Thanks for the comment Byuante.
So this deck isn't really about attacking, which is why I have left out some of the more obvious finishers like Overwhelming Stampede and Craterhoof Behemoth . Though adding in one mass pump spell isn't a bad idea if my primary win-con fails.
Speaking of which, Furystoke Giant and Aerie Ouphes are part of this deck's win condition. This deck is all about using the persist mechanic to go infinite. Each creature with persist creates an infinite loop with a free sac outlet and either Grumgully, the Generous or Melira, Sylvok Outcast on the battlefield. I run all of the persist creatures simply because there aren't many of them to begin with.
Add in any of Purphoros, God of the Forge , Impact Tremors , Altar of Dementia , Blasting Station , Warstorm Surge , or Stalking Vengeance to close out the game. Though now that I see all of the finishers listed next to one another, I may cut Stalking Vengeance or Warstorm Surge . 6 payoffs is likely too many.
Woodfall Primus is a special case because it is both the best persist creature, and yet due to its ability, it is the worst for the combo. It can't go infinite because it must destroy a noncreature permanent. That means it will eventually have to start targeting my own things. I almost left it out of the deck because it basically reads: "your opponent's can't play for the rest of the game". However, it is just a very good card on it's own so I left it in the deck.
Broken Bond is an interesting card that I really should try out. I always see it, but because it's sorcery speed I have never tried it. Plus it's another card that deals with Torpor Orb which automatically makes it something to consider.
Torpor Orb occurrence in decks from the last year
All decks: 0.01%
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.02%