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- Renegade Rallier + Saffi Eriksdotter
- Liliana, Heretical Healer + Loyal Retainers + Saffi Eriksdotter
Legendary Creature — Human Scout
Sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter: When target creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield this turn, return that card to the battlefield.
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Saffi Eriksdotter Discussion
on Partner Pod
6 days ago
Saffi Eriksdotter goes inf with Sun Titan, Karmic Guide, or Reveillark and a sac outlet. It also works well with your general strategy by allowing you to save your best creatures and reuse the etb on creatures that your opponents try to kill. Or just reuse a creature after sacing it to pod.
Speaking of guide and sun titan, Fiend Hunter not only is a nice bit of removal on a creature (and with a little luck and know how it is permanently exiling) , but it goes inf with guide/titan and a sac outlet.
There is some tech that karador decks commonly use to guide/rev combo more consistently in Boonweaver Giant and Pattern of Rebirth (it can snag entire combo in 1 turn). Now that Protean Hulk is legal, it does the same thing.
Lastly, I think you would be better off in 5 color for 1 drop free sac outlets like Viscera Seer and Carrion Feeder so you can guide/rev combo more reliably. I think Child of Alara would be best if you follow this last bit.
I realize the guide/rev combo is not your deck's focus, but it just fits so well with your kiki pod stuff that I thought more of it's pieces ought be suggested.
6 days ago
I'm not saying you need to delve into lots of technical theory, my concern is that there is a certain vibe of "You can either win with a combo deck or... You know what, just play combo." Hell, your words are: "Well, though some decks (normally stax decks) can pull this off, I don't recommend it". I get that it's not as strong as combo when played as just pure aggro, but in the context of stax it can be incredibly effective.
Again, I get that beatdown isn't as represented in cEDH and that most beatdown decks will have a combo line out, however the fundamental design of the deck is not a combo deck. And yes, in the case of Edric you're chaining extra turn spells, but I still wouldn't call it combo. The problem with labelling everything which isn't "turn sideways, pass turn and hope you get to do it again" as combo both dilutes what actual combo is and can cause a lot of confusion. After all, Edric decks are usually digging for their Notorious Throng to close games out.
Storm however I would consider to be a combo deck. While it's not your classic "I generate infinite mana and then wreck you with Comet Storm" type deal, the look and feel of the deck is that of combo. You are daisy chaining plenty of spells which are generally netting you a lot of mana, only to power some sort of finisher.
But looking at macro, my issue is that your primer is glossing over the concept of aggro from a fundamentals point of view. I know it's under-represented because raw aggro is not as strong, but it's still a thing. Please don't get me wrong, I do think that for the most part what you're saying is fine and I think that there's some really good stuff in there. I just think it's worth talking about the combo/aggro/control triangle because it is the fundamentals of how MtG works.
As a side note with Eidolon of Blossoms, I run it alongside Elvish Visionary. Eidolon can fulfil the same kind of roles, however it also generates extra value with any other enchantment in the deck, but especially Gift of Immortality. And with Lead the Stampede vs Harmonize, it depends on what you're digging for. If it's a creature, sure. But of you're looking for an enchantment or artifact (Like Blasting Station, the staple win condition for a Saffi Eriksdotter deck), Harmonize is the better choice. Don't get me wrong, I don't personally run either however it's not a bad include, depending on build style.
1 week ago
Yes, the true terms for the control I specified are "Permission" and "Stax", the reason I separate them is because the point of this isn't to delve into the technical theory behind gameplay, instead I want to be able to build a base for any player trying to make a cEDH deck. I can build up a deck with extreme ease if I know three things:
The Colors of the deck (The Commander)
The Base to use (The Archetype)
The Win Condition (The Combo)
I can build up any commander deck using those 3 things in mind, and I built up plenty of examples for them. I went over cEDH staples because I wanted to show the type of cards you should be interested in, though there are tons more than I said.
You mention countermagic in combo decks, but I suggested that if you look at "So, How do I Build Combo?", so I don't think I ever disagreed there. I also wen't over beatdown in stax, it was in the "Pick a Win Condition!" strategy where I mention blood pod being a beatdown strategy. This isn't to say they don't run Karmic Guide/Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Felidar Guardian/Birthing Pod combo as a finisher separate to beatdown.
You say you run Eidolon of Blossoms in your Saffi Eriksdotter, which I assume means you can sac Saffi, then the Eidolon to draw a card, but then wouldn't you rather Elvish Visionary? Harmonize is actually a card I greatly suggest against for most people. Green decks are mostly creature-based strategies, and would rather a tutor like Summoner's Pact, Chord of Calling, Green Sun's Zenith, Worldly Tutor, Birthing Pod, or Sylvan Tutor or they would rather a better draw spell like Lead the Stampede. Harmonize rarely is useful in cEDH, it is simply too clunky.
Again, in this list I have made no claims of any card not being cEDH worthy or anything, there is a use for most cards in mtg, not all, Eager Cadet will have to sit this one out, but Eidolon of Blossoms could be in an enchantress deck, and I guess a dredge deck could use the Harmonize to great ability, I never claim a card can't work.
Okay, this next one is the hardest... Edric, Spymaster of Trest and aggro. Yes, it is a deck that wins by dealing combat damage, yes it is a creature based deck that wins... "fast." No, it isn't aggro. Here is my argument, the deck is an extra turns deck, that has a draw engine based on dealing combat damage. This means that it isn't an aggro deck for two reasons, The goal of the normal Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck isn't to win as fast as possible by setting your opponents' life totals to 0, it is a deck based around being able to draw enough cards in a turn to chain effectively infinite turns together, which wins through use of combat damage as a finisher.
I would claim it is a combo deck, no, it doesn't set up a combo like Time Vault + Voltaic Key + Storm Crow to win a game, but it does effectively the same thing, in the same way a storm deck isn't technically a combo deck, nothing it does goes infinite or does something that was an unintended side effect of two or more cards in conjunction, a storm deck simply uses a lot of cards that synergize well, yet they are considered combo because they play the game with a mindset based on winning as fast as possible (while being protected from interaction) without the use of normal creature swings or general burn.
If you were wondering, I will come back to this primer and revamp it, give me a week though, because I have been working on making a primer for all of EDH... and that will take time.
1 week ago
Overall I think that this list is quite useful, however I would provide some feedback.
I don't think it's as clean cut as just choosing your archetype and then choosing your win condition from that. In magic, regardless of the format (with some exceptions), you will always have the triangle of Aggro, Combo and Control. Ultimately there are two ways of winning a game in Magic, either beatdown or combo (short of a few "I win" cards which can still be classified as combo I guess). So the triangle becomes Aggro, Combo and Control:Aggro/Combo.
Stax and Control are two different categories, you're correct, however they both fall under the overarching Control parent category. They are both permission based in that they try to take permissions away from a player. In the case of stereotypical control, it's a reactive strategy where you counter/remove threats and in the case of stax, it's just proactive control - trying to starve your opponent of resources before they can play them/threats.
But saying that Aggro is not an archetype is incorrect. It may be under-represented, however it still exists.
There are definitely some blurred lines here, but it's important to represent the category. You can have a deck which runs counterspells, but is still fundamentally a combo deck, not a control deck. you can have a control deck that runs aggro as it's win condition. Sure, it's not typically going to be very good, but you can still do it. Control Voltron decks are a thing after all. While not as optimised as Doomsday Zur, you can and do see control/Stax Zur beatdown lists. And decks like Edric, Spymaster of Trest are legitimate aggro decks. Yes they run counterspells, but it's in the same way that a Yidris Storm deck runs them - to help protect the deck's strategy.
On top of this, with a decent chunk of stax decks, the primary win condition is actually beatdown. This is because they prey on the fact that most cEDH decks are not very creature heavy (dorks aside) and so are designed to punish "spell" heavy decks. Asymmetric cards like Linvala, Keeper of Silence definitely help, but most stax decks will rely on creatures to do most of the work.
The other piece of feedback that I would provide is that it's important that you don't turn this into a "List of Staple cEDH Cards". You have some really good advice about card selection and while you can provide some examples, I would recommend actually keeping these to a minimum. The reason for this is that you're better off talking about the why and then letting people decide for themselves if a card is a good fit. Harmonize can be really decent draw in a mono green deck when you can cast it turn two with no issues. Hell, I run Eidolon of Blossoms in my Saffi Eriksdotter deck and while no, it's not the most comeptitive list it still does pretty well. And Eidolon at fist glimpse might seem bad, but is actually a powerhouse. We see cards like Sire Of Insanity at the top end of Blood Pod lists. Definitively saying a card is or isn't cEDH worth stifles creatively and leads to stagnant lists, which flies completely in the face of what this primer is about. I really think for lists like this it's worth applying the "teach a man to fish" strategy. I get that sometimes it's more work to write as you have to explain the why, but it yields much better results.
On the whole though, the primer is good and I hope my advice helps.
2 weeks ago
It's worth adding as well, you can come across cards that can kill two birds with one stone. These are judgement call cards typically as they will usually be expesnive as balls mana wise. That or they will be rather niche. But in some circumstances, niche is good.
For example, I run Heart Warden in my Saffi Eriksdotter deck. While warden is both a suboptimal dork (2 drop that only produces G - not the worst dork in the world but Elvish Mystic would be better) as well as expensive card advantage (If you want the card the same turn you play it you're paying 4 mana), it generates really good value in a graveyard recursion deck. as But as I said, judgement call.
Same goes for stuff like Mystic Confluence. It's a great replacement for Jace's Ingenuity, but I would treat it as that rather than a counterspell. It can very easily be, but it comes down to how you classify the card.
3 weeks ago
3 weeks ago
It looks like you have the start of a fairly competitive karador edh here. Usually these kinds of decks have a lot more stax and graveyard interraction. Old Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst, and Glowrider all do the same thing and since your deck is mostly creature based, you'll usually break parity with them. Spore Frog (fog frog, as I like to call him) is a good repeatable answer with karador out on the field, as well as Caustic Caterpillar. Buried Alive is another Entomb and Survival of the Fittest is just amazing in a deck like this. Necromancy is a good instant speed way to get your deck started and honestly you can replace Boonweaver Giant with Protean Hulk and Reveillark with Saffi Eriksdotter and have the same combo, but safer because it's instant speed and easier to get going because you don't need a sac outlet to kick start it.
Protean Hulk dies, get Carrion Feeder and Karmic Guide, bring back protean hulk, sac hulk to get Blood Artist (also a must have in the deck), Saffi Eriksdotter, and any protection ( Grand Abolisher is pretty good). Loop saffi and guide with feeder and you win.
another combo which is really good because you can protect it early is as follows: protean hulk dies, grab Body Snatcher, Carrion Feeder, and Sylvan Safekeeper (new addition). Sac snatcher in response to itself, which will bring back hulk, and you basically do the first combo but with our safekeeper out here protecting the combo. At this point, lands don't matter so safekeeper is great.
Cards you can cut: Shriekmaw is usually a dead draw in my exerience. It has such a narrow targetting zone that the buff it gets from karador isn't usually worth it. Fyndhorn elder, being a 3-drop, is far too late game to be worth a mana dork spot. Jarad is too far out of the combo to be truly worth it I think. The land snake is a bit underwhelming I think. You don't really need peacekeeper because in comp, attack steps don't matter (combos boiiii). Birthing pod can be great, but can be super slow.
link to my okay karador deck. Let me know if this helps and if you have any questions!
3 weeks ago
That sounds like fun! I've seen several lists with combo wincons, usually involving Blasting Station. Notably I've seen Saffi Eriksdotter & Saheeli Rai used as the extra pieces. I've opted not to use the combo because the deck already has a fairly strong inevitability to it, but the cards that hate it out (most notably graveyard hate) are also effective at disrupting the combo. If the combo attacked at a different angle than the hate cards our opponent would bring in could handle, then I'd say that would be worth looking into.