When Limited Resources enters the battlefield, each player chooses five lands he or she controls and sacrifices the rest.
Players can't play lands as long as ten or more lands are on the battlefield.
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Limited Resources Discussion
2 weeks ago
Version 1, specific:
Whenever a player draws a card, each other player gets a Treasure token.
At the beginning of each upkeep, that player loses life equal to the number of Treasures they control.
It's a temptation more than actual penalty, per se. It's also a
Version 2, generic:
a la Limited Resources
When Limited Resources enters the battlefield, chooses five other enchantments and exile each other enchantment not chosen this way.
As long as there are at least five enchantments on the battlefield, whenever an enchantment enters the battlefield under a player's control, that player exiles their hand.
It's not as oppressive as Limited Resources, but still hella cruel.
I'd like a vehicle.
2 months ago
enpc Your response makes me believe you didn't actually read the OP through. Further suggested by how you said earlier that I forgot to talk about White's ability to resource denial while I clearly had a shorter paragraph mentioning Armageddon , Ravages of War and Limited Resources and how I didn't believe that archetype was a very progressive way to forward white's multiplayer playability in Commander, even though it is one of white's more powerful archetypes but it has some nasty side effects on the political spectrum.
My main problem with white having to almost exclusively go to artifacts for fixing their problems on ramp and card draw is exactly because artifacts are plentiful in Commander and therefore many run artifact removal. It is quite tough as a white player that spent a lot of mana on dishing out mana ramp and/or card draw artifacts, just to have an opponent cast Bane of Progress or Vandalblast or be the target of an incidental Casualties of War or Aura Shards , and there's limited options for white to counter that, bar the expensive catch-all . Why green has better and more flexible counters that actually fits white more is a bit strange to me and I wish white had at least a comparable answer that didn't cost 40$.
In a way I wouldn't mind if white also got some artifact restoration as they did in the older days . Blue and red has some good artifact pulls but white did have that same affinity back in the day, so it is definitely part of their color pie . White just has a huge problem again with the symmetrical effects being a disadvantage in multiplayer unless they can fuel the graveyard - which they cannot by themselves.
One solution could be a Tempting Offer card that pulls back artifacts.
Tempting Offer Show
White's tempting artifact recovery
Tempting Offer - Return an artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield. Each opponent may an artifact card from their graveyard to the battlefield. For each opponent who does, you may return an artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
Most opponents would likely take the offer to return their strongest artifact to their board, and in exchange white gets to mass-return their wrecked artifacts at a discount. Unlike say Tempt with Discovery which in general should never be accepted.
One of the mana ramp suggestions (in the OP) was indeed to return low CMC permanents, which could hit ramp artifacts as well - so pulling double duty and well within white's color pie. Getting extra lands this way is more resilient versus playing mana artifacts but requires extra steps compared to mana artifacts and will never be a true replacement but merely a supplement. And it's not the first time white restores lands .
I think it would be better if white players could included these types of permanent restoration cards into their decks and it was viable, rather than having to put Manalith into their deck.
Again these suggestions are unlikely to replace mana artifacts or become auto-includes, but they could provide good supplementary support. I advocate choice, but if improvements could be made to a color specific solution to a color that falls behind in the format, then I see no issue.
And none of the suggested cards are something I would imagine would swim rather than sink in eternal formats, but it's possible there's something I overlook.
It's also meant as a general take on a possible solution, and not necessarily the only thing needed to improve white's ability to compete in casual EDH. For instance if the land restoration cards I suggested was a way to go, then more cards that facilitate that line of play could be made. More functional reprints of Evolving Wilds , a variant on Flagstones of Trokair or basically anything that helps that line of play and doesn't need to be *the* fetchlands . Prismatic Vista was a very good alternative to the fetchlands, that sadly has taken a very similar price trend. Although I think that may have more to do with the price of the Modern Horizons set compared to what value was in there, than the actual card - a cash-back so to speak. Now I just hope for future functional reprints - even while owning 2 Prismatic Vista s.
White lands that end up in the graveyard Show
Variant on Flagstones of Trokair
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
, Sacrifice ~: Search your library for a basic Plains card and put it onto the battlefield, you gain 2 life.
Something with a line of play that lets you put lands into the graveyard but not fall behind on lands in play.
, : Look at the top 6 cards of your library, you may put any number of land cards from among them into your graveyard, then put the rest of the cards on the bottom of your library in a random order. You may shuffle your library.
Outside the colors of Jund's lands matters deck. Outside of most landfall decks. Will likely cause Crucible of Worlds to increase in price, but is an example of something white could do that isn't specifically self-mill, isn't draw discard and isn't land- Buried Alive .
White have previously had a somewhat similar effect in Endless Horizons , one that is somewhat similar to Land Tax . Where Endless Horizons essentially provides deck thinning and pseudo card-advantage, it also presents a rather significant risk if blown up, especially if you play greedy - don't do it. This suggested land or whatever it will end up being, it doesn't need to be a land... it can thin your deck and throw lands in the graveyard, and provide a library shuffle if needed.
What I mean to say with the above, is that the suggestions in the OP and here is more about a direction of solutions to this perceived issue with white in casual Commander, more than it is "this card will single-handedly turn white into just as great a color as green for Commander". Therefore reflecting on these cards' viability in context to only existing cards would be against the point I try to make.
Think of red for a moment. For almost two decades, red didn't have actual card advantage. They had Browbeat as a punisher mechanic, they had Wheel of Fortune in the very early days but those are more exceptions than the rule. Then red got their temporary draw or draws with downside with an underlying theme "it's here in the now, use it or waste it". Card draw is so basic and essential to the game, that each color has come up with ways to achieve it. I think white needs to find a similar solution for multiplayer formats.
And finally, to quote you; "But if your argument is that they're not as good (the manarocks) and so you don't want to play them, then tough, welcome to how balancing works. And if that's not fair in your mind then you have some really bad double standards."
Does balancing need to include price tags? Joke aside.
But how come a large portion of the Commander community has expressed that white and to a lesser extend red are the least powerful colors in Commander, especially white when considering mono color? Red is getting support lately and is improving, but white falls behind.
Do you claim you know balance better than all those people?
7 months ago
Just for reference, this is the entire ban list for oathbreaker.
Ad Nauseam , Ancestral Recall , Balance , Biorhythm , Black Lotus , Channel , Doomsday , Emrakul, the Aeons Torn , Expropriate , Fastbond , Gifts Ungiven , Griselbrand , High Tide , Library of Alexandria , Limited Resources , Lion's Eye Diamond , Mana Crypt , Mana Geyser , Mana Vault , Mox Emerald , Mox Jet , Mox Pearl , Mox Ruby , Mox Sapphire , Natural Order , Painter's Servant , Panoptic Mirror , Primal Surge , Primeval Titan , Recurring Nightmare , Saheeli, the Gifted , Sol Ring , Sundering Titan , Sway of the Stars , Sylvan Primordial , Time Vault , Time Walk , Tinker , Tolarian Academy , Tooth and Nail , Trade Secrets , Upheaval , Worldfire , and Yawgmoth's Bargain .
9 months ago
Anything That isn't silver bordered or on the commander ban list is legal, and the commander ban list is limited to cards that ruin the game really easily like Channel , Griselbrand , Time Walk , Limited Resources , and Worldfire . You know, the fun cards.
2 years ago
What I find about white in commander mode is:
1) it is fast out of the gate and can establish an early agro lead.2) in the mid game, it lacks the draw capabilities that say blue or black can accomplish.3) it has only a few game ending combos as compared to blue or black.
I am no expert but having a decent card draw engine is important. Skullclamp and Sram, Senior Artificer are about as good as you can get with white. Even with something like Mentor of the Meek you can get some good card draws but it is slower than I would normally like.
In planning a commander deck, I would prioritize card draw alot higher than you have and I would build complementary components to the deck after picking the card draw engines.
I think there is a reason why blueish commander decks are more prevalent than mono-white decks. But, the economics of purchasing a commander deck in paper also reflects these supply/demand aspects.
I also like things like Armageddon and Limited Resources to help mono white survive into the later stages of the game. White is at its best, in my opinion, when the land counts are small and slowly deteriorates not because the choices white have in later rounds are bad per se. But becuase some of the other colors out there are better with more land available. Maybe see Zur the Enchanter for letting your imagination run a bit more wild.
2 years ago
I am not a big fan of this commander. Bolster is a mediocre uprgade forcing you to invest in a vast amount of creatures to bet the most of it. This also leads to vulnerability to board wipes like Wrath of God. You will also have trouble with card draws. So things like Skullclamp and Sram, Senior Edificer should also be considered.
2 years ago
A very late thanks to everybody who contributed!
@ClockworkSwordfish: Thank you for the good suggestions. The level ups are slow, but if I need a late game, they're perfect. The Tithe would be great, especially in this lower-land deck, so it would be a good higher-budget addition.
@marcopollo: Limited Resources is a terrible, filthy card. It forces everyone to play my game, and having only 5 lands makes it hard for the enemy to get rid of it. Land Tax was in the original build for this deck, but I took it out because it was a little expensive. Zuran Orb would be nice, but... it's not 1 cmc. Faith's Shield looks like a really good card in a bad situation.
Benalish Hero looks like it could be good, but I don't know how banding works. You also said Defensive Formation works like Kytheon, Hero of Akros Flip's flip, but I'm not seeing it. Launch the Fleet also seems like a great way to surprise someone in the later game.
2 years ago
As the banned lists for EDH and German Highland quite different, I don't think that this is fixing the problem. So just look at the difference...
Banned in EDH and German Highlander (13)
- Ancestral Recall
- Black Lotus
- Gifts Ungiven
- Library of Alexandria
- Mox Emerald
- Mox Jet
- Mox Pearl
- Mox Ruby
- Mox Sapphire
- Time Vault
- Time Walk
Legal in EDH not in German Highland (17)
- Birthing Pod
- Chaos Orb
- Falling Star
- Mana Crypt
- Mana Vault
- Mind Twist
- Mystical Tutor
- Natural Order
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Sol Ring
- Strip Mine
- Survival of the Fittest
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Vampiric Tutor
Legal in German Highland not in EDH (25)
- Braids, Cabal Minion
- Coalition Victory
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
- Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
- Leovold, Emissary of Trest
- Limited Resources
- Painter's Servant
- Panoptic Mirror
- Primeval Titan
- Prophet of Kruphix
- Recurring Nightmare
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
- Sway of the Stars
- Sundering Titan
- Sylvan Primordial
- Tolarian Academy
- Trade Secrets
- Yawgmoth's Bargain