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Ravages of War
Destroy all lands.
Ravages of War Discussion
3 days ago
enpc Fair enough, I'll get to your response in bits too. Sorry it's been so long underway but I've had my response written down on a different PC that I couldn't get access to for a while. I'm just going to post this initial section and keep adding to it going forward.
- "But your argument here basically boils down to "artifacts are bad because they die to removal". I get that there are a bunch of good artifact removal cards, but that doesn't mean that we should stop leaning into artifacts because of it."
Not quite true. My argument is that relying too heavily on artifacts makes you very vulnerable to a removal type that is a lot more common than counter measures to alternative kinds of resource generation - like land ramp, blue's untaps and artifact manipulation, black's graveyard ress, alternative payments, and rituals, and red's artifact swap, rituals and other mana cheats . It's a lot easier to counter measure an artifact than many of the other types of mana accelerations in the game. And if your color can basically only achieve a very fundamental mechanic of the game like ramp and card draw through artifacts, it makes you more vulnerable than those that can achieve it in a different way.
I completely agree with you that removal is a fundamental part of an interactive game like MtG and is part of the fun and makes the game what it is. I don't advocate that removal/interaction should be worse or something like that. However I reckon when there's a disparity between how well removal interacts with artifacts versus other mana accelerators and that it hits certain colors more than others, then I see a possible issue that is worth looking into and possibly correct.
- "In addition to this, white has a lot of ways of protecting your stuff from being destroyed, whether it's indestructible, hexproof, just an outright Teferi's Protection (which yes you did mention), or more importantly shutting down an opponent's removal source using Torpor Orb effects, of which white has many."
I mean outside of Avacyn, Angel of Hope and emblem elspeth , and the aforementioned Teferi's Protection (which is a pretty ludicrous spell in of itself), white cannot actually protect their own non-creature stuff that well. And their hexproof is mainly to protect the player themselves and not their board (there's odric off-keyword giver - I mean deathtouch, skulk, menace?) - which is kinda weird in my eyes as white is the color of community and going wide more than tall and have indestructible as a primary evergreen keyword.
So white doesn't actually have that good, flexible or effective means to protect their own non-creature stuff. White is even the color of indestructible as one of their primary evergreen keywords... and it's actually worse off when protecting non-creature permanents than a color like green .
So in your proposed scenario where white counters green's land ramp with MLD, green actually has a very good, cheap and flexible counter, that leaves white at a huge disadvantage. Although it is only one card, but then again, there are 3 major land destruction spells in white (that is legal in Commander) being Armageddon , Ravages of War (check that price tag, hello Portal), and Catastrophe ... and to an extend Fall of the Thran .
Lands have always been the exemption to many destruction effects and there have not been printed much in terms of land destruction in recent times (outside 1-for-1s Tectonic Edge that is meant for removing utility lands/power lands). So I'd like to challenge your claim that land destruction is what WotC wants to show is part of what white does. I cannot deny that WotC have made more stax-like cards for white in recent times, but I reckon that's because taxing and hindering is something WotC can more easily print for white as a color identity mechanic than land destruction, again because lands have a special status and don't perish as most other permanents in the game.
In relation to the mentioned cards that can help white to land ramp; true these exists and many utilize them in their decks if they don't have better options. I did not actually know of the Kor Cartographer , paralleling Wood Elves in a worse state, fitting of a color imitating another color's strength. I would just like to see more of these type of cards, and if WotC finds a way to make them less mana intensive (like the 6 needed for Burnished Hart - it's still a good card because it's 2 on the field, but it's good more due to lack of better) but requiring something else that white is good at, I think that would be a good compromise between allowing that power but not make it as flexible and strong as green's ramp. Simply requiring more mana to mana ramp, seems kinda unproductive as those colors wanting that imitating mana ramp is already light on mana production. Kinda feels like "Don't be poor, just be rich. It's easy making money when you're rich!".
And I'm afraid I'm being a bit repetitive, but stax effects in general, are something that negatively influences white's political standing and threat/annoyance assessment in Commander - so if white is doomed to be the "I hold the rest of you back"-kind of guy, to be somewhat "on par" with the rest, then white is always going to be a bad color for casual multiplayer formats, like Commander.
- "So again I push the point that white is capable, however the issue here is that it's not the way you (or some other casule commander players) want it to be. But again, that's not white's shortfall."
The limited data we have and many players' personal experience says that white is less likely to succeed in Commander than any other singular color. Do you think this is just pure fiction spun up by white-loving players? Or do you think there's some truth to it? Why would white players be more prone to bad deck building than players of any other color?
Jumping at bit in your post:
- "Here's where we get to brass tacks (if we haven't already), I wouldn't agree with you on the comment that "a large portion of the commander community" thinks that mono-white needs fixing. Ther eare some poeple, sure. And those people might make a lot of noise about it, but that doesn't mean it's the majority of players. I know that most players who I interact with would agree wiht my viewpoint on it."
My anecdotal evidence is from 6 friends I play Commander with, where most agrees that white is the worst of the colors for Commander when considering mono-color (I'm uncertain of the opinion of 2 of them as they haven't said it outright). Other than that I know that the Youtube content creators "The Command Zone" has strong opinions on white lacking support in Commander, and as far as I've seen in the comment section of their video regarding color strength, within context of the Commander format, there's a lot of people who shares that viewpoint and a lot who don't. Of those that don't share the viewpoint, there's some who are very vocal and sadly also some who are frankly quite rude in their statements.
I'll end my post here and get back to you when I have more time.
2 weeks ago
enpc Your response makes me believe you didn't actually read the OP through. Further suggested by how you said earlier that I forgot to talk about White's ability to resource denial while I clearly had a shorter paragraph mentioning Armageddon , Ravages of War and Limited Resources and how I didn't believe that archetype was a very progressive way to forward white's multiplayer playability in Commander, even though it is one of white's more powerful archetypes but it has some nasty side effects on the political spectrum.
My main problem with white having to almost exclusively go to artifacts for fixing their problems on ramp and card draw is exactly because artifacts are plentiful in Commander and therefore many run artifact removal. It is quite tough as a white player that spent a lot of mana on dishing out mana ramp and/or card draw artifacts, just to have an opponent cast Bane of Progress or Vandalblast or be the target of an incidental Casualties of War or Aura Shards , and there's limited options for white to counter that, bar the expensive catch-all . Why green has better and more flexible counters that actually fits white more is a bit strange to me and I wish white had at least a comparable answer that didn't cost 40$.
In a way I wouldn't mind if white also got some artifact restoration as they did in the older days . Blue and red has some good artifact pulls but white did have that same affinity back in the day, so it is definitely part of their color pie . White just has a huge problem again with the symmetrical effects being a disadvantage in multiplayer unless they can fuel the graveyard - which they cannot by themselves.
One solution could be a Tempting Offer card that pulls back artifacts.
Tempting Offer Show
White's tempting artifact recovery
Tempting Offer - Return an artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield. Each opponent may an artifact card from their graveyard to the battlefield. For each opponent who does, you may return an artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
Most opponents would likely take the offer to return their strongest artifact to their board, and in exchange white gets to mass-return their wrecked artifacts at a discount. Unlike say Tempt with Discovery which in general should never be accepted.
One of the mana ramp suggestions (in the OP) was indeed to return low CMC permanents, which could hit ramp artifacts as well - so pulling double duty and well within white's color pie. Getting extra lands this way is more resilient versus playing mana artifacts but requires extra steps compared to mana artifacts and will never be a true replacement but merely a supplement. And it's not the first time white restores lands .
I think it would be better if white players could included these types of permanent restoration cards into their decks and it was viable, rather than having to put Manalith into their deck.
Again these suggestions are unlikely to replace mana artifacts or become auto-includes, but they could provide good supplementary support. I advocate choice, but if improvements could be made to a color specific solution to a color that falls behind in the format, then I see no issue.
And none of the suggested cards are something I would imagine would swim rather than sink in eternal formats, but it's possible there's something I overlook.
It's also meant as a general take on a possible solution, and not necessarily the only thing needed to improve white's ability to compete in casual EDH. For instance if the land restoration cards I suggested was a way to go, then more cards that facilitate that line of play could be made. More functional reprints of Evolving Wilds , a variant on Flagstones of Trokair or basically anything that helps that line of play and doesn't need to be *the* fetchlands . Prismatic Vista was a very good alternative to the fetchlands, that sadly has taken a very similar price trend. Although I think that may have more to do with the price of the Modern Horizons set compared to what value was in there, than the actual card - a cash-back so to speak. Now I just hope for future functional reprints - even while owning 2 Prismatic Vista s.
White lands that end up in the graveyard Show
Variant on Flagstones of Trokair
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
, Sacrifice ~: Search your library for a basic Plains card and put it onto the battlefield, you gain 2 life.
Something with a line of play that lets you put lands into the graveyard but not fall behind on lands in play.
, : Look at the top 6 cards of your library, you may put any number of land cards from among them into your graveyard, then put the rest of the cards on the bottom of your library in a random order. You may shuffle your library.
Outside the colors of Jund's lands matters deck. Outside of most landfall decks. Will likely cause Crucible of Worlds to increase in price, but is an example of something white could do that isn't specifically self-mill, isn't draw discard and isn't land- Buried Alive .
White have previously had a somewhat similar effect in Endless Horizons , one that is somewhat similar to Land Tax . Where Endless Horizons essentially provides deck thinning and pseudo card-advantage, it also presents a rather significant risk if blown up, especially if you play greedy - don't do it. This suggested land or whatever it will end up being, it doesn't need to be a land... it can thin your deck and throw lands in the graveyard, and provide a library shuffle if needed.
What I mean to say with the above, is that the suggestions in the OP and here is more about a direction of solutions to this perceived issue with white in casual Commander, more than it is "this card will single-handedly turn white into just as great a color as green for Commander". Therefore reflecting on these cards' viability in context to only existing cards would be against the point I try to make.
Think of red for a moment. For almost two decades, red didn't have actual card advantage. They had Browbeat as a punisher mechanic, they had Wheel of Fortune in the very early days but those are more exceptions than the rule. Then red got their temporary draw or draws with downside with an underlying theme "it's here in the now, use it or waste it". Card draw is so basic and essential to the game, that each color has come up with ways to achieve it. I think white needs to find a similar solution for multiplayer formats.
And finally, to quote you; "But if your argument is that they're not as good (the manarocks) and so you don't want to play them, then tough, welcome to how balancing works. And if that's not fair in your mind then you have some really bad double standards."
Does balancing need to include price tags? Joke aside.
But how come a large portion of the Commander community has expressed that white and to a lesser extend red are the least powerful colors in Commander, especially white when considering mono color? Red is getting support lately and is improving, but white falls behind.
Do you claim you know balance better than all those people?
2 weeks ago
Sylvan Tutor 's price is based almost entirely off scarcity. P3K was a small starter set released in the Asia market and not released in the North America market. It's a small and rare set from 20 years ago, so any even halfway decent effects are going to be extremely price dollar wise. Great effects that are cEDH playable are extremely expensive, Imperial Seal Three Visits Ravages of War Burning of Xinye Warrior's Oath
I think the effect is great. Most green decks could benefit from including it. It does lose a lot of utility being a sorcery though. You must give your opponent a full turn, with your opponent knowing that you have a selected card coming to you. Compare to instant speed Worldly Tutor . You play at your opponent's end step, and you get to untap and play your creature before your opponent gets to untap + draw. Also consider that with an instant speed tutor, if you need to do something else instead, like Counterspell , you have that option. And last but not least, instant speed tutor gives you potential for blowouts. If you Worldly Tutor to grab Alms Collector then crack Chromatic Star (or any other effect to draw 1 at instant speed) to get it into your hand, you can get huge plays against Wheel of Fortune type effects. The same is true for Aven Mindcensor against Protean Hulk , and so forth.
1 month ago
Relatively powered version of Brago Stax.
1 month ago
I knew I was forgetting something! I have a Flagstones copy at home that'll get shuffled in soon, haha. Thank you for reminding me of that Card! Glowrider is fine, but we certainly have enough Taxes within the list currently... It came down to Vryn or Glow for me and I took the flyer. You can swap Ravages of War for Balancing Act as an alternative Wrath (one I'm trying to squeeze in) which cuts the cost by $100 and certain Rocks could be taken out for less efficient ones... Sub $500 may be difficult, as Cards like Humility and Trinisphere are a must, but they can sub out for alternative Stax elements. Yes! Anje gets hit pretty hard from this list, haha. Suppression Field is a gross one.
1 month ago
You're going to have to run a lot of symmetrical effects (hit all players) and then run cards to get around them yourself. In a 4 player pod, if you 1 for 1 trade cards from hand for opponents lands, you're going to be really far behind. You start with 7 cards, while your opponents collectively have 21 cards. 1 for 1 trades are not the way to go about building this deck.
Now, some ways to negate the drawback
- Boros Garrison and other bouncelands -> lets you get more from untapping just 1 land, and the bounce resets a land to enter untapped again
- Lands that tap for 2+ mana -> Ancient Tomb City of Traitors Gaea's Cradle most of these are expensive-ish. Also check out depletion lands Remote Farm its a full cycle and they cheap.
- Permanent untap effects -> Seedborn Muse and similar
- Lots of artifact or creature based mana. Signets and Talismans are great in five color budget.
Next, some cards that destroy lands or hate on lands. Armageddon Boil Choke Flashfires Acid Rain Ravages of War Destructive Force Contamination Blood Moon Magus of the Moon Tsabo's Web Omen of Fire Strip Mine Wasteland Impending Disaster Tectonic Break Ruination Wildfire
Then we run some cards that let us recur lands, or like when lands break Ramunap Excavator Crucible of Worlds Life from the Loam Terravore The Gitrog Monster Titania, Protector of Argoth Splendid Reclamation
Add some lands matter cards, some ramp, and some good beaters, and you have a deck.
2 months ago
Hi again realsoupersand,
Had to fly out to Ottawa, ON in Canada for a bit, so back in action.
50% of the time, I win with my primary win-con, which is Buried Alive + Reanimate , generally between T1-4 depending on how much tutoring and mana ramps I have available. It's CMC4, which happens on T1 occassionally, T2/T3 more realistically.
Karmic Guide is a critical component of that combo, also, yes she is playable with Kaalia of the Vast . Also enables Razaketh, the Foulblooded from the graveyard, and provides for sac/tutor. It's usually never a dead draw, and at CMC5 is still playable from hand, on occasion if the game is going on, and the Protection: with Flying also has assisted occasionally. Other than her obvious CMC as just a recursion tool, she's generally been good, and a requirement for the primary win-con.
Angel of Despair is just a Vindicate for CMC7, its ridiculous and only 5/5 flying. However, it's what I ALWAYS Tainted Pact to when Show and Tell + Omniscience , unless they have Leyline of Anticipation it's "usually" good enough. I can tutor Anguished Unmaking , however, I have to give priority up with an Omniscience on the table, so it's far too late by then. Can also destroy other random threats if needed too. She's borderline for sure. Red Elemental Blast is too slow in this case.
Angelic Arbiter was answering the Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge but now it's always Kess, Dissident Mage . Also for Tooth and Nail type encounters (eg: Craterhoof Behemoth ) or any type of haste/recursion. All together stops a few. I usually just put 1 response to any situation, because I just tutor the exclusive solution needed.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope protects against MLD type situations, but she's not difficult to remove anyway, everyone's removal deals with her no problem. If she buys me an extra turn though, it's worth it. Can also put a player on a turn timer or make them act before prepared (no Force of Will for example), sometimes... Not the strongest for sure. Or like a The Gitrog Monster looping destroy maybe...
Balefire Dragon is again, just to solve specific issues or eliminate high value ground targets. Like the others, Tainted Pact to hand whenever, a situation calls for it. I tried to cut back on creature controls (ex: Damnation ) just because its not a creature world, but often creatures can be enablers.
Baneslayer Angel cut, served no purpose other than lifelink for the Hatred but the CMC5 was too much, and only removed a single opponent. Serra Ascendant T1 "usually" puts enough pressure on 1 player (usually )), who is now on a turn timer, spending life for tutoring becomes harder, and sometimes waste time removing it. Statistically found, I was usually nearly 1 turn earlier to win with Serra Ascendant , plus overcharges me for an early Necropotence or Razaketh, the Foulblooded win or Doom Whisperer win.
Phyrexian Arena is tough, high CMC, no return. It still the second highest played card in commander, and I don't know how else to draw? Mardu is a drawing nightmare. Have to think on it, how to deal with it but agreed, same issue is with Bloodgift Demon . I've had Skyline Despot recommended has a same turn impact (draw at EOT), but also, might be ramping oppponents draw too, especially if I have no way to reconnect on attack as Skyline Despot doesn't have trample.
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight has the added benefit of removing 1-damage win-cons like Impact Tremors , Blasting Station , Goblin Bombardment , Dragon Tempest (with 1 dragon), Etc... Also puts pressure on. Usually just for a specific application though. I think my interaction package is more similar to a Thoughtseize type application, where if I can't win early, I tutor what I need to address the specific threats, instead of using Instant spell to do them? If that makes sense. Gisela, the Broken Blade i've cut.
Hellkite Tyrant was specifically answering an almost consistent Breya, Etherium Shaper deck. It's been a while since C16 set now, so definitely seeing it less and less. Might help with Teferi, Temporal Archmage or Urza, Lord High Artificer on occasion. It wasn't enough on it's own though, it also needed a Linvala, Keeper of Silence to go with it. Prior to this, I had nothing to compete with Breya, Etherium Shaper , had no way to win.
Lyra Dawnbringer is on my cut list now, might become the Sire Of Insanity or something like that. Mother of Runes works good with Master of Cruelties , also can protect Kaalia of the Vast , makes guys like Balefire Dragon unblockable too, or protects a Razaketh, the Foulblooded and becomes Tutor mana, or blocks an early Infect attack. Slow yes, but has some utility. Also can protect my Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Worldgorger Dragon causing me to win (instead of lose). It's borderline for sure, have to think about it. Aven Mindcensor feels good, looking for a way to include him as well as the Sire Of Insanity .
Steel Hellkite I tried for over a year, I would either, not be able to connect (no trample), or when I did, not enough mana to get the threat that I really needed to remove. I gave up on Steel Hellkite , also needs a Mother of Runes for support.
Ancient Tomb is back in, can't recall why I removed it. Think it screwed me one game with the colorless, but now that I've removed most of the colorless, it makes sense. Prismatic Vista isn't great, only 2 basics (can put in the snow's but for why), I like that it filters a land out (lower probability of drawing a land), but also destroys my mana-fixing as well, so agreed, unnecessary in this build, but feels weird.
I'm probably going to continue reducing CMC and reducing land counts as you've recommended, but needs some expensive 0-CMC rocks which I don't have, or some resource planning around alt. mana sources.
Overall goal is still to build for cEDH, understanding that consistency isn't going to push into more than a Tier-2.5/3 categorization, so I'll go over High Power again later lol.
Thinking about Interaction, I really don't want to go heavy into that with things like, Dismember or Lightning Bolt would rather let the opponents use their removal, and PRAY that I can sneak through a combo. If I combo T1 it has a fairly high success rate (other than a Pact of Negation which eliminated themselves) usually don't get stopped (Odd Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares here and there), T2 is still decently good, often others are still tutoring for a T3 win, but outside of T3 or beyond, usually I need to wait until someone tries to combo, and then is stopped, before I have a chance. I just go for it whenever I can though, increases winning % over trying to strategically go for it and being too late.
I think perhaps Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast or both perhaps will be handy, Silence I wish it had Split Second (like Teferi's Protection ) because most combos don't have a "sorcery" speed interaction so doesn't stop. Can protect me on the turn I'm going for it like another Grand Abolisher but outside of that not highly useful. Will do some playtesting with it and see if it improves my completion % for combo and increases my combo win % because that's all that matters.
I decided not to go MLD, can Stax/MLD certainly is a strategy, but prefer just to ignore others, and just go for the win myself, win or lose. Plus I don't repopulate my hand nor ramp, so probably just slowing myself down instead of the opponents. Plus I don't have a Ravages of War so would require a financial commitment, would rather focus on finding a way to go for the win on T1-T3 more consistently.
I think if you found Kaalia of the Vast wasn't competitive using MLD before you dissolved that strategy, don't think it's the right course to go down either. Would rather try some out-of-the-box planning, and see if we can get her into a cEDH, which your comments are VERY helpful, and VERY appreciated. Think I've made some decent strides, still waiting for my card order to come in the mail so I can make some more cuts/adds to the deck!
I'll reply on high power shortly since it's lower priority, and hopefully you'll see my deck going in a stronger direction. Pushing that T1 probability up is key. I keep thinking there must be a T1 with Entomb and Goryo's Vengeance that I can do somehow? Razaketh, the Foulblooded would need another enabler, but there must be someone (like Griselbrand aka Griselbanned) to win with? Hmm.
2 months ago
I have a few more suggestions, looking at this again:
I think Swords to Plowshares is a lot better than Path to Exile . The reason I say that is because life is a lot less of a consideration in a format like EDH, but ramping your opponent is often actively dangerous.
Like Painful Truths , Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise should be on your radar. Idk how fast your deck typically fills its graveyard, but I suggest at least running Treasure Cruise . It can get you back in the game rather fast. Also consider Fact or Fiction .
Narset, Parter of Veils is a POWERHOUSE in EDH these days, especially if you can pair her with a Windfall . This combo is well worth two card slots. Similarly, Ashiok, Dream Render is a real piece of work in many EDH games, though it tends to be better at tables that run a lot of fetch lands.
If your meta is as filled with combo decks as mine is, you may have luck with a Rule of Law .
Depending on your personal level of sadism, pieces of MLD may be on the table in this deck. Consider Armageddon and (if you have a few spare organs) Ravages of War , as well as Cataclysm . Because of Cataclysm 's oldschool wording, it requires people to sacrifice their planeswalkers... just saying.
Ravages of War occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.0%