Trying to make deck more competitive (Kess)
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on Feb. 22, 2018, 7:27 p.m. by Ser1ousGaM3r
So I'm kind of new to building Commander decks, But I have been playing cEDH and casual FFA EDH with other people's decks. I understand terms like stax, etc. and the Top Tier $2000+ decks. Below is my current list for Kess, Dissident Mage. I have all the cards in paper except Demonic Tutor, and other expensive cards. It is apparently 41% Competitive at the time of this posting.I want to get this deck at least to 60% casual/competitive. The Catch is that it needs to be budget and under $300 total.I don't know what to take out. For now I dont want to mess with the lands/ramp right now too much even tho it is quite slow, so please don't suggest Mana Crypt or Mana Vault, etc.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #3
Pownu Thanks for the reply! I understand the meter more now. Thanks! I'll probably add Doomsday combo and Isochron Scepter combo.
Still if their are any cards that are too janky or are just truly bad please say so. Also all Suggestions are still welcome
February 22, 2018 8:30 p.m.
Just ignore the competitive menter. It means nothing. As for changes to teh deck, cut stuff like Rite of Replication and Blatant Thievery. They are slow and generally bad and paint a huge target on you when you actually cast them.
Instead, stuff like Dark Ritual which helps feed into Aetherflux Reservoir is better. Also, you should be running Swan Song over Dispel. You should also run OG Counterspell.
The ravnica bounce lands are bad. You're not playing lands.dec, so cut them for other mana fixing. Especially with how many other ETB tapped lands you run.
February 22, 2018 8:40 p.m.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #5
enpc I really like Rite of Replication but your make a good point, that you become a target. Thanks I'll add those!
February 22, 2018 9:05 p.m.
Just some general recommendations: shocklands, Dimir Signet, Counterspell, Reliquary Tower, Fact or Fiction, Search for Azcanta Flip, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Chromatic Lantern, Swan Song, Toxic Deluge, Past in Flames
February 22, 2018 9:18 p.m.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #7
Pieguy396 Thanks for the Suggestions! If you recommended anything to come out that would be great!
February 22, 2018 9:24 p.m.
Sure! I'd consider cutting: Commit / Memory, Fatal Push (unless you're committed to cEDH), Opt, Epic Experiment, Necromantic Selection, Chart a Course, Body Double, Fateful Showdown, Blatant Theivery, and possibly the Animate Worldgorger combo. If you're committed to the Twin package, Zealous Conscripts is another card that works well there.
February 22, 2018 9:31 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #9
Feel free to take a gander at my Kess deck. It is fairly competitive and I have had good success with it.
Just Another Mage
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 9 | 3 COMMENTS | 1039 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS
February 22, 2018 10:10 p.m.
The problem with Rite of Replication is that it doesn't really help your deck. Maybe if you were running Inalla, Archmage Ritualist as your commander and had a Dualcaster Mage it could be good, but here you're most likely going to be copying a big impact creature your opponent has. In that case, you're diluting yopur strategy which just seems silly to me. And yes, yo ucan copy gearhulk or pyromancer, but for 9 mana, you should be talking about game winning plays.
If you're going to add Intuition (which I see in your maybeboard), you should really add Reanimate/Victimize/both. Especially off Victimize, no matter what your opponent gives you you will have the combo in hand assuming you've got Kess in play.
February 22, 2018 10:48 p.m.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #11
enpc Yeah you're completely right, its basically a random non-synergistic card that really depends on your opponent having a powerful nonlegenary creature. Yes! Victimize seems really good here I definitely need it. Thanks!
February 22, 2018 11:14 p.m.
SeeMeTrollin says... #13
Kess also lends herself to cheap blink spells and then storm.
February 23, 2018 10:51 a.m.
I've been playing competitive splinter twin in grixis for 3 years now. Tag me in your deck and I'll do my best to help.
February 23, 2018 11:22 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #15
For all of you running Kess here, try out the card Hatred to have the option to one shot someone with general damage.
February 23, 2018 11:47 a.m.
I still don't have the time for a proper response, but everything suggested so far here is just wrong. Please hold off on buying anything.
February 23, 2018 3:02 p.m.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #17
TheDevicer I don't completely understand how ALL of it is wrong, but don't worry I wasn't buying any cards till a month or so of setting aside money anyway. So whatcha got?
February 23, 2018 5:18 p.m.
SeeMeTrollin says... #18
A few little gems: Braid of Fire
Braid is just good red ramp. Cinder is cheap early game correction. Hinder/TV are a one shot mill combo in edh
February 23, 2018 6:45 p.m.
I've got more time now so here are my thoughts. First and foremost, Kess, at it's best, is often the head of a dedicated Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker combo deck. If you're playing vs pretty decent players who understand a thing or two about the format and are ok playing at a pretty high level of power, this isn't something to worry about. On the other hand, if you're just playing at your local shop and people frown on combos, especially fast and resilient ones in decks with basically no other win cons, you might not want to go extra turns and some control stuff. After all, you really don't want to sever relationships or drop a ton of money into a deck only to find out people at your store plan to shank you in the parking lot.
Anyway, I'm going to assume your group is ok with high levels of power an will be pitching Kess to you as a dedicated fast combo general. When I say that, I mean as a general who aims to win very quickly through some minor disruption but will often struggle vs groups that pack tons of efficient and early hate. The reason Kess is such a great general is because the Kiki Jiki combo is incredibly resilient. As long as your yard is open to you, you can push the combo live from both your hand and from your yard. This opens up a ton of different lines of play for you and makes it incredibly difficult for your opponents to tell how they should react to you.
Still, because you're on budget, you're going to have to build a little bit on the slower side. I recommend going more control heavy than the average Kess list. For a great example of a kess deck, check out this list..
As for your combo package, limit it to just this:
Keep in mind that with kiki and deceiver in the yard, just using Phyrexian Delver is good enough to combo for the win.
For your deck, you want about 10 to 14 sources of ramp. Unlike in most decks, rituals like Cabal Ritual and Dark Ritual are fine, but I wouldn't go beyond those two. The rest of your ramp needs to be cheap and preferably untapped. The signets and Talismans are awesome, Fellwar Stone, Everflowing Chalice, Mind Stone, etc. I also really like Nightscape Familiar.
Then you want some Wheel of Fortune effects. That is pretty pricey, but Windfall and Jace's Archivist are cheap.
Your best bets for reanimation are;
- Animate Dead
- Necromancy
- Exhume
- Stitch Together
- Victimize (ballin)
- Reanimate pricey
You want cheap interaction. Swan Song, Dispel, Arcane Denial, etc.
Finally, since you're on a reanimate plan anyway, it pay to have like one really good fatty that you can bring out. I like Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. In my group, I've stolen away so many games by flashing in Notion Thief, going to my turn, reanimating Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, and casting Wheel of Fortune.
Overall, kess is a blast to play. The games tend to be short because you either assemble the combo fast or die. Every game feels like a mad rush to assemble a contraction through some ridiculous means and since you have so many different lines of play and avenues to push for the win, the deck never gets old for me.
BTW, the competitive meter on tappedout is a joke, don't trust it.
These are my general thoughts. Feel free to ask questions.
February 23, 2018 11:16 p.m.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #20
TheDevicer Thank you so much!! This helps alot. Yeah my gamestore dislike combos but luckily a playgroup of my friends are competitive so this will be very useful!
February 28, 2018 10:18 p.m.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #22
TheDevicer UpperDeckerTaco Pownu Pieguy396 enpc Question: Theoretically If took out the combo pieces and replaced with say idk planeswalkers, or more spells to make a casual deck temporarily, Do you think it would be viable at a LGS that bans combo? Would I need more bombs or X spells or what?
March 1, 2018 5:16 p.m.
Kess is best suited to combo. You're better off building a second deck.
As a side note though, that LGS sounds crap. Banning combo is such a subjective thing. If I Craterhoof Behemoth + Avenger of Zendikar, what's to say that this isn't a combo? After all, it's two cards that win me the game. I can storm out with Aetherflux Reservoir or win off Laboratory Maniac without ever going infinite. I can flash in a Felidar Sovereign at upkeep to just win. Is this a combo?
So my advice, build a stax deck. A really cruel stax deck. Because hey, it's not combo.
March 1, 2018 6:40 p.m. Edited.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #24
I would have to disagree, slightly, with enpc about "combo" for Kess. Yes, it is better to have an "instant wincon" in your Kess deck. But for casual play, there are multiple ways you can go with Kess. Yes I would recommend you play more spells. In all honesty, if you want a sweet, out of the box, casual idea...try making it a CHAOS deck. If you LGS is banning combo, that must mean your meta isn't entirely full of competitive d-bags. Which means, you can set up with a cool and fun CHAOS deck. Worth a shot.
March 1, 2018 8:17 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #25
Or you could just go straight control. It's completely viable. Play cards like Talrand, Sky Summoner and Metallurgic Summonings and Young Pyromancer and Guttersnipe. Token and damage themed and you could throw in Purphoros, God of the Forge. And just play like some counterspells, kill spells, and a lot of draw mechs and cantrips to keep fueling the fire.
March 1, 2018 8:21 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco: Chaos decks are generally just bad stax decks. But you could potentially build a Kess stax deck. She is one ofthe shells where Possibility Storm can actually work as you cast shit from your graveyard so you can actaully get spells through.
Just add a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and watch everybody weep.
March 1, 2018 9:03 p.m.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #27
enpc So true about the combo bannings... HAHA!! I might consider a Stax deck since I love making people miserable Cackles with red eyes! My LGS might have banned Stax/Anything that locks opponents too. Idk I'll find out.
UpperDeckerTaco HAHA YES!! Chaos sounds pretty fun! Haha there are people playing Tier 4 decks like Hope of Ghirapur so I probably can. I'm defintely looking into that. Also I do already have Talrand, Sky Summoner, Metallurgic Summonings, and Young Pyromancer in this deck. So if I just put like a Jace's Sanctum and Guttersnipe and cards similar and more counterspells instead of my combo pieces then Spellslinger/Control!
March 1, 2018 9:08 p.m.
Seriously, if your LGS is banning anything that's not "hurr durr I have big creatures and you have big creatures" then it's time to find a new LGS. Banning anything oppressive/combo is babying players. If you're deck is constantly getting beaten then maybe you should make your deck better rather than bitching that everybody else should just let you win.
March 1, 2018 10:22 p.m. Edited.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #29
enpc agreed. What's the point in playing a sub-optimal deck? There isn't one. Either play to win, or don't complain when you lose. And if you are someone who cannot afford to build your deck optimally, sorry about your life, start making trades, wheeling and dealing, saving money to put aside for the cards you want over time; and just know that you won't have an optimal deck until you get all of your pieces so don't get butthurt if you lose games due to your power level not being where it needs to be...it will take time to acquire all the pieces. But also, don't get butthurt if someone completely destroys you, because it was probably your fault that you didn't come prepared with answers. You, literally a player in the same format as everyone else, in which the format has the one of the largest pools of cards to choose from, did not make your deck flexible and adaptable to multiple archetypes. Sorry, sucks to suck. lmao. I think enpc would agree.
March 1, 2018 11:38 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco: I do agree. But it's more than not being able to afford cards either. I have come across quite expensive decks that are still shit because they've been poorly constructed.
It's simple, every EDH deck needs 5 things: Lands, Ramp, Card Advantage, Removal and a Win Condition. If you choose not to run one of those things (or a sever deficit in one area) then that's on you. It's not complicated.
But the problem is that little Bobby wants to just play lots of big creatures. So Bobby fills his deck full of big dumb creatures but doesn't run any removal or card advantage and minimal ramp. Well of course little Bobby is going to get his arse handed to him time and time again against decks that are well built. But instead of maybe making his deck faster or having an answer to Charlie's combo deck (in the form of any removal), he just whines that combo is unfair and should be banned.
But the solution is actually quite simple; little Bobby needs to have a cup of concrete and either get good or get out.
And it's not just about price, my girlfriend was playing a game of EDH a while ago and wone at the game with her pauper deck against a bunch of regular decks. And pauper decks are like what, $30? It illustrates the point that it's about good deck construction, not just pouring money into a deck.
March 2, 2018 12:22 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #32
Why isn't there a "like" feature on this website for posts/forums, similar to the "Upvote" option for decks.
"A cup of concrete"
CLASSIC!
March 2, 2018 2:11 a.m.
Realistically no. Kess without an infinite combo is likely going to flounder. As someone who has played in a lot of shop leagues, I would also like to advise against going for any kind of stax. Many of the players in these types of leagues will actively go out of their way to punish players they see as playing the game 'wrong.'
If your shop's rules don't actually outline stuff in detail, you could use infinite turns as your combo or go with something like storm. The problem is those are still really expensive.
From experience, if you're interested in building the most competitive list possible, I would advise you to go with something like Elfball or another powerful, linear strategy that has room for interaction. My friend intentionally flew under the radar at our shop for months with a Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury list. After all, who's going to be afraid of Freylise, right? Turns out the deck is hyper lean, incredibly resilient, and has the tutor options to power out a Craterhoof Behemoth for lethal.
I've been in your shoes before. Wanting to create a deck but being short on cash is bad enough on its own, but needing to create something that's good in a meta while not pissing people off adds to the challenge. I honestly think you're best off not playing Kess, but there's stuff you can do with her if you're dead set on it.
March 2, 2018 9:29 a.m.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #34
enpc UpperDeckerTaco The cup of concrete was great!! Yeah I totally agree with y'all. You make perfect sense. They don't.
TheDevicer Yeah. I test online just to see, but your probably right. Either I do need a Tier 3 deck anyway to play casually. I'm brewing with Azor, the Lawbringer ands it looks fun and viable... I mean maybe Talrand, Sky Summoner. Any suggestions of Tier 3 Blue decks when Kess doesn't work.
March 2, 2018 11:12 a.m.
Ser1ousGaM3r says... #35
TheDevicer That green deck sounds sweet, but I'm not one for green other than like Merfolk which has blue ;). I might do a green deck if I can't find something suitable tho.
March 2, 2018 11:28 a.m.
Well, I would suggest Roon of the Hidden Realm. He can be built on the cheap and he has a tendency of generating utterly crazy amounts of value while having enough interaction to make sure he doesn't lose to any crazy plays. Blinking Prime Speaker Zegana a few times is pretty much gg. Just $150 is enough to get a good base going. With $300, you can dominate most shops since people have no idea what they're doing.
Roon is also not known for being good and you're essentially playing fair magic, so people aren't going to target you. It's a green deck, but it feels like a happy marriage of green and blue that splashes white effects to cover weaknesses. And since you're in green, the tri-color mana base won't be that bad since you can easily fix your colors.
March 2, 2018 11:32 a.m.
You should play MLD. Roon can support that - him bouncing Acidic Slime repeatedly seems fun. That or Selvala, Explorer Returned.
Pownu says... #2
you shouldn't really take the percent rating to heart. It is kinda spotty at times, and if your deck is winning against other good decks, then it is probably competitive. Also, having more expensive cards doesn't determine the competitively rating, it is more how the cards in your deck work together (although it does seem that the meter will go up if you add $$ cards). for example, my sidisi deck is labeled as 76% competitive, which i guess sums it up pretty well (although i'd give it at least 80), and it is only $55. if you want the competitive rating to go up, add more combos to your deck
February 22, 2018 8:08 p.m.