M13 speculation based on Avacyn Restored
General forum
Posted on April 16, 2012, 12:19 p.m. by DeckBuilder345
I wanted to see what people are thinking what we are seeing in Avacyn Restored will actually mean for what will be printed in M13. My prediction is that the titans will NOT be reprinted in M13. Too many finishers being printed in avacy restored imo to have the titans reprinted.
Quick question since we brought up Increasing Vengeance...does that work with miricles like Temporal Mastery if you cast it for its miricle cost or does casting like that act as something else other than instant or sorcery?
April 20, 2012 2:01 p.m.
Miracle affects nothing about card types. It is an alternate cost of the spell, which does not mean that its card type will change.
April 20, 2012 2:25 p.m.
HiddenWolf says... #4
@heinm1989 Yes, it works. You are casting it, after all... Just with reduced mana cost. That's what makes Temporal Mastery so dangerous.
@bcurran Regeneration still works very well against combat damage (that would be a good point for this ability, since it's mostly common at green creatures)... But I see your point. I just don't know exactly what WotC want, because Incinerate is still on (instead Volcanic Hammer or something like it)... So why not white as well? Nukes are meant to destroy everything... Maybe if Oblivion Ring and Journey to Nowhere don't get reprinted, they'll come back to Wrath of God or something new to fight Undying creatures (since even red are getting good stuff lately, like Red Sun's Zenith and Pillar of Flame when it was just supposed to just burn with 'normal damage').
About Divine Reckoning, thanks for your point. I've never thought that and now it makes sense.
April 20, 2012 2:26 p.m.
I am hoping to see more gold beside nicol bolas. I imagine we will have a new green and a new black plainswalker but don't see any reason to replace the others. Garruk is currently G/B and sorrin is B/W. so if it's mono colored they lose something IMHO. Definitely will not see reprinting of the swords of winning and awesomeness, but it would be nice.
April 27, 2012 2:57 a.m.
taco ninja says... #9
though i get what everyone has said about the titans, swords, day of judgement and so on. i for one would like to get back to the subject at hand, what we would like to see and why.
my top 10 of reprints wanted.
lightning bolt (duh)
giant growth (duh)
healing salve (just cause it is awesome and its been a while)
life line. (cuz undying isnt broken enough ahahahahaha)
counter spell (yes i know it wont happen)
loxodon warhammer (cause i like turning weenies into fatties)
ANYTHING WITH RAMPAGE (cause im old school like that)
comet storm (cause it is epic)
ambassador laquatus as a planes walker cause if anyone can take jace as a mill walker its gotta be laquatus.
spider silk armor just so green doesen't die every time now that flyers are prevalent.
comments? ideas? hate mail? lol.
April 30, 2012 1:59 p.m.
I hope by all means that they can pop out something really nice, maybe something completely new and different... multi-colored Mythics....
April 30, 2012 4:04 p.m.
I don't think Mana Leak will be reprinted. With the article they just published being like 'it's too powerful wahhh', it doesn't make sense for them to reprint it while Snapcaster Mage is still standard, because they just complained that that 'combo' was too unfun.
That being said, I think blue will have something similar to replace it, either some similar (but better) than Frightful Delusion, or more specialized counterspells similar to Negate. I think control is getting watered down, but I have no doubts they'll give us a nice fattie similar to Consecrated Sphinx to make up for it, to replace the Titans being lost - which yes, they will be lost. I'm actually really looking forward to their replacements.
I don't think we will see Jace, I believe they will save him for Return to Ravnica. I don't think Baneslayer Angel will be back either, in most cases she is better than a Titan and would give white too big of an advantage on top of what they already have from standard. I also doubt Angelic Destiny will be back for similar reasons.
Rancor would probably be a good guess, but if they do that I don't think Giant Growth will be back. It will probably be one or the other. Dual lands, yes. I believe Oblivion Ring will be back too, and I want to say Phantasmal Image as well. They are both great supporting cards, but aren't super overpowered. Or maybe they reprint Clone to replace it, seeing as illusions seem to be way toned down since M12.
Day of Judgment...maybe. Not sure. There is Divine Reckoning and Terminus right now, so I wouldn't be surprised if some different boardwipe got printed, maybe something similar to Damnation, since we are losing Black Sun's Zenith (Killing Wave is nice, but a bit more situational).
Those are kind of my speculations thus far, but this is my first actual rotation that I've been playing, so I could be wayyyy off ;)
April 30, 2012 4:33 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #12
With undying in the set i have to believe that either Oblivion Ring or Journey to Nowhere will be reprinted in this set. With so many other troublesome cards i suspect it will be o ring.
I hadn't considered that they wouldn't reprint Mana Leak but i suppose they could move to a world where cancel rules? I doubt they would print a card to hose mana leak and then not reprint it though... that seems odd.
April 30, 2012 5:16 p.m.
It's not so much Cavern of Souls that Mana Leak probably won't be reprinted...it's this article:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/191
(Forgive me, I have no idea how to create links)
It left a bad taste in my mouth.
April 30, 2012 6:13 p.m.
Valentine35 says... #14
here's to hoping they reprint Angelic Destiny...fingers crossed.
May 1, 2012 7:17 a.m.
esterk, I also found that article disgusting. The author has no idea what he's talking about, and it seems to say that catering to Timmies who don't want their 9-drops countered is the right way to move forward for Magic. Do they not realize that there are other types of players too?
May 1, 2012 11:07 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #16
I think you guys are misreading / misunderstanding the article. Being able to mana leak 8 times is what they are stating is broken. Snapcaster Mage is the problem. Causing mana leak to be too good. Nothing in this article should be a surprise. They have long touted that Counterspell is ridiculously under costed, and they intend to never reprint it again, they believe Cancel is the more appropriate cost of the spell. However they wanted to experiment with Mana Leak and to see if a 2 mana counter was viable if it carried a draw back. Obviously they have come to the conclusion that even Mana Leak is a little too good for its casting cost... and the problem is exacerbated and even more over powering when you have access to 8 of them instead of just 4. Hence they have 3 choices, ban mana leak (everyone would hate this) 2 ban snap caster (this would probably be even more unpopular) 3. hose the shenanigans of mana leak / snap caster sillyness in a very strong way, by giving people another card to utilize and build around. (far less people complain about this). The article is trying to explain why they have printed such a powerful card that effectively negates such a powerful standard strategy, by explaining how they saw a problem which was causing things to be unbalanced and fixed it.
May 2, 2012 1:51 p.m.
Now, i think that they should try to adjust the game to a later win con, so these 4-5 win games last to 8-9, for more cards that melt together instead of these quick, early game winners.
May 2, 2012 3:20 p.m.
Snapcaster Mage is a powerful card. It is near the upper end of fair power level, but I don't see it crossing any lines.
For that matter, I don't see any particular imbalance in the Standard metagame. There is a "best" deck, but how dominant is it, really? Looking over results from everything from Magic Online daily events to GPs to PTQs, I don't see Delver showing up very much. Hell, most decks aren't using Snapcaster Mage at all. There is nothing so terribly wrong with the current Standard format that we should even think about banning cards.
The main objection we have to the article is that everything in it is wrong. Cavern of Souls is not going to hose Delver, because most of the time, Delver players don't counter creatures. I can't stress that enough: DELVER PLAYERS DO NOT COUNTER CREATURES. They counter removal in order to protect their clock. What Cavern really hoses is U/B pure control, a deck that is barely seeing play at all. If there is any problem with Standard, it is that control is too weak. And so now they print a card that makes that problem even worse? The most deplorable part is that the article is trying to pass off the card as Delver hate, because they know that it will resonate well with the uneducated portion (the largest portion) of their audience.
May 2, 2012 3:46 p.m.
Snapcaster Mage is by far ENOUGH power and controll, and border lines it, because it gives that player so much power it is incredulous to believe that there isnt enought controll! What's even worse is someone who runs the Havengul Lich and Snapcaster to CONTINOUSLY pull him back to counter, which is what someone at my shop runs. It's NOT all about the people who runs EXSPENSIVE decks, it's about the overall amount of players who play the game because they enjoy the game, not for the MONEY, so Wizards are looking at the little people, is what it seems like. They're trying to even the feild for people who can't afford spendy cards. Saddly Cavern of Souls is going to very Exspensive for the masses, so let's hope it one of them common rares.
May 2, 2012 4:07 p.m.
I'm not sure you understand what "control" is. It is a defensive style of play that focuses on answering its opponent's threats. Do you see any kind of deck that fits that description placing well?
Control decks don't operate on one card. You can't just say "We have Snapcaster Mage, that's good enough." There has to be ways to profitably interact with the opponent, and that is proving to be very difficult these days given all the Hexproof and Undying creatures running around. Counterspells are our last refuge to hope to deal with them.
My stance on the "little" people has always been this: If you can't afford a real deck, then don't play tournaments. Play casually, and don't try to ruin the fun for those of us who do build real decks. It sounds insensitive, but in the end it pleases more people to operate in that way.
May 2, 2012 6:01 p.m.
I'm not saying that that isn't true; I think that people who don't have completive decks should play in tourneys and people who play with those completive decks should hold back when playing for fun, which is my problem. I try to build decks that are good while money efficient, and right now this is becoming somewhat harder, because this is my first set drop (I started playing right when Innastrad came out)... I know what control is, I have a deck with control. But someone who runs a mono blue control or B/U control will BEAT most of my decks BECAUSE they can take care of my Heavy drops with a simple Mana Leak. The control right now is fine, if not overpowered, because it can stop almost ALL late game heavies. If Im running four each main counter spell against R/G Wolf Run; Ill let you mana ramp as much as you want, but Im not going to let you play one Primeval Titan or Inferno Titan or any other powerful creature. You play a Thrun, the Last Troll , O.K., Ill Tribute to Hunger at the end of your turn. Im going to kill ANYHTING that threatens the main board, so Titans are a no go and Thrun will be taken care of ASAP with sac spells or Black Sun's Zenith. Im going to let in the Sad Robots and Emissaries because ill kill them. If I go up against White Weenies, Ill most likely swap in faster counter spells, like Mental Misstep to take care of your one drops. Ill run Disperse to take care of things when it gets out of hands. Mirran Crusader dies to my tribute and Black sun. That new one mana destroy human spell makes it even easier. One deck intimidates me, as a Control Deck. RDW would because I need to counter mostly everything, Ill run Dismember and other cheap kill spells ect. If they reprint anything that helps the Control world, I think that control decks will become more seen. Deprive, Counterspell, Power Sink are all powerful late game counters, but the most powerful late game is ths sink, itll stomp most decks by depriving them mana. A reprint of Brainstorm would also be devastating because of one mana draw a card to rearrange what you need would kill us.
May 3, 2012 12:19 p.m.
I understand the point of the article - my problem is that by trying to fix Snapcaster Mage + Mana Leak, they effectively crippled one of the core strengths of blue, which is countering. The land doesn't JUST work vs. Mana Leak, it works against any counterspell, including Cancel.
Each color that has been designed by Wizards has its core strengths and weaknesses to make everything more balanced. By making a card that can effectively make any creature unable to be countered, you are drastically underpowering blue. Cards like Thrun, the Last Troll are acceptable because flavorwise, it makes sense for green to have access to a creature like that, and it's one card that not every deck can run. But when you talk about a land card that anyone can put in any deck, it gets ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that land is incredibly versatile anyway, making it fit in pretty much every deck.
I understand the problem noted in the article, that essentially people can now have access to 8 Mana Leaks, but they specifically say in the article that it makes the game 'unfun,' which I have a real problem with. Sure, it sucks when you can't resolve a spell, but that's been a core part of the game for almost as long as its been around. Making such a drastic change now shows that they are clearing ignoring some of the foundations the game has been built on.
Besides, they could opt for Mana Leak to not get reprinted for M13, and thus, we would have only had to wait until October for those shenanigans to end, instead of resorting the the method they chose. I feel like they messed in Innistrad and panicked to patch it up, so they came to a conclusion that wasn't very thought out at all.
May 3, 2012 12:43 p.m.
Wolf Run is a favourable matchup for control, because it relies on specific cards to execute its game plan. That is the perfect deck for control to prey on, because it can just save all of its removal and counters for the key cards.
Streamlined aggro decks are very difficult for Control decks to deal with, because they play a lot of cheap threats and don't care which specific ones resolve. If you want to beat control, don't play "Heavy drops" that they can deal with so easily.
May 3, 2012 12:51 p.m.
@esterk Personally, I think they should ban Mana Leak if they care that much (they shouldn't, but R&D is full of idiots these days), or just not reprint it in M13. That way, they only destroy Standard. By printing a card like this, they destroy Modern and Legacy too.
May 3, 2012 12:53 p.m.
Doesn't Wizards of the Coast create these sets years in advance. So wouldn't that mean this set has been decided, say, 2009? Perhaps they make things to coincide with the sets close to it, but do they know exactly what interactions would break the game and the meta these interactions create would be? Did they know Delver and Wolf Run would be big decks? I know they have people to test the cards in the sets but they may not see what the entire Magic population sees when these sets are in actual circulation. I think in all actuality, these problems that we have found aren't all taken care of when they think-tank the sets.
May 3, 2012 1:28 p.m.
HiddenWolf says... #26
So, we better wait for Cancel back. Blue probably won't be dominant in M13...
Besides Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, what other planeswalker do you guys think will be back?
I think there'll be a new (less specific) version of Ajani Goldmane which would kick Gideon Jura to the corner (alongside Gideon's Lawkeeper and Gideon's Avenger).
May 3, 2012 1:38 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #27
I could see Ajani coming back, but then again I would be ok with Gideon for another time. I think jace in the core set would be weird especially with him probably in Return to ravnica (granted they did similar with Garruk).
really would be upset or at least disappointed if mana leak was not in M13. I like being able to counter things, it makes me smile. And bcurran while your assessment of delver's use of mana leak, I think it may be overstated, if delver players didn't counter creature spells then they would certainly use Negate over Mana Leak.
May 3, 2012 1:44 p.m.
HiddenWolf says... #28
rckclimber777 Indeed... But they don't want to things get countered easily anymore. Cancel, Negate and Essence Scatter it is.
May 3, 2012 1:51 p.m.
@rckclimber777 They usually don't counter creatures. That doesn't mean that they don't want to have the option, especially since their fast clock greatly nullifies the drawback of Leak.
May 3, 2012 2:19 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #30
I actually was not in complete disagreement with your point, merely suggesting that it was a slight exaggeration. If delver players were so concerned with removal (which is your statement following the idea that they usually don't counter creatures) then negate would be the better choice as removal such as Tragic Slip, Gut Shot and Dismember will throw off their clock and be beyond the help of mana leak by turn 4 (or sooner depending on the deck). As it is, mana leak presents them the option to counter a creature if need be. So cavern of the souls does in fact still present an issue for delver. Again I agree that it is not a hate card designated specifically for delver and hurts control far more, however, it does nonetheless impact delver to the point where it must take it into consideration.
May 3, 2012 2:41 p.m.
I understand that Cavern of Souls will stomp a little bit of blue's face in, but see, the thing is, blue STILL has the controll over Cavern of Souls. After the spell resolves, a spimple Vapor Snag or Unsommon can do the job. Having to continously recast the SAME creature over and over again wil become annoying. Plus, the only advantage for R/G Wolf run is they pick Titan's and they pull two of their Cavern of souls if the Primeval Titan lands.
May 3, 2012 3:23 p.m.
Or you could just take care of Cavern of Souls with a simple Ghost Quarter. If that is really a huge worry for control players then simply play with a play set mainboarded. haha
May 3, 2012 4:53 p.m.
That doesn't work. You can't afford to set yourself back a land early enough to deal with Cavern. What we really need is a Wasteland reprint.
May 3, 2012 11:32 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #34
I'd settle for a Tectonic Edge though obviously Wasteland would be better.
May 3, 2012 11:37 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #35
Guys... no one plays straigh mono blue control, you are acting like this is the end of the world for blue decks.... side out your mana leaks and side in your Go for the Throat and things will be fine. Or keep a couple of mana leaks because you can still counter non creature spells or spells when they don't have the cavern out. I think this whole thing is a little over blown. The sky is not falling... take a deep breath and relax. I think you will see things are not as bleak as you believe them to be.
May 3, 2012 11:38 p.m.
Well to get on track:
6 mana creatures that aren't Titans.
A new catnip and counterspell. Duals, Bolas, Planeswalkers, Gold and so forth
May 4, 2012 12:52 a.m.
Vindicate. And a good discard spell. Thoughtseize, Duress, or Inquisition of Kozilek, any will do.
Ajani Vengeant too since they're doing gold cards.
Personally, I hope there isn't much new stuff, especially not planeswalkers (for which they seem to be running out of ideas). It's the Core Set, a time for reprints of old favourites. Let them save their new ideas for blocks.
May 4, 2012 9:03 a.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #39
I doubt they will do it but i would love to see a reprint of Inquisition of Kozilek.
@ bcurran, Ajani Vengeant would certainly be an interesting inclusion in the core set. Also they have already committed to all core sets having some new cards in them now in addition to the recycled other stuff so keeping new stuff for blocks just isn't going to happen. Since core sets were far too boring with just reprints in them, as they became only useful for new players, as old players already had everything no one was buying the product. Put in the titans though and suddenly it is selling like hot cakes. Thus new stuff in core sets is here to stay, and it is probably going to replace the titans... at least many of us are hoping so... the question is with what and at what cmc?
May 7, 2012 3:02 p.m.
I'd like (but doubt to see) something like a reprint of Death Baron, something to make Standard Zombies Really nice, or the chieftens of the older time. (You know, the "Zombies spells you cast 1 less colorless" and "Zombies you control get +2/+1"
May 7, 2012 3:40 p.m.
We got a War Cathedral guyz!
So what's the thought, enemy fastland?
May 7, 2012 6 p.m.
Deckbuilder345
I had already read the article about mana leak prior to your earlier disagreement and thought it was common knowledge.
You are right though, control is hardly dead because of losing mana leak. Wizards is moving away from counters and more towards removal, especially varied removal that is unaffected by abilities such as indestructible/hexproof/undying (see Terminus). As an Esper Control player I'm ok with this because leaking every other spell was seriously getting boring.
I think we will see removal spells in black with more limitations, such as Terror (don't know if that has been posted in this thread or a different one but someone out there gets credit for this, not me). We will also see spells that stop/bypass undying.
Someone said there would be a card that manipulates the top of your deck similar to brainstorm...sorry, but no. Wizards is trying to balance the game out, not break it even further. Scry and Ponder..RIP.
Further (possibly original) speculation by me is Nicol Bolas will be all new and not reprint because he is far too expensive for the current standard format.
May 21, 2012 4:45 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #43
I wouldn't be surprised to see some way to manipulate the top of an opponents deck. Especially as a way to deny an opponent miracles and preview / re-arrange their upcoming draws.
May 21, 2012 6:36 p.m.
thebeardedshuffler says... #44
One person suggested that the titans could be replaced by Lorwyn's Elemental cycle: Purity, Guile, Dread, Hostility and Vigor.
I think that'd be pretty cool.
bcurran says... #1
They have a fair point in switching to Day of Judgment
though. Basically every old removal spell includes a "can't be regenerated" clause: Terror
, Wrath of God
, and Snuff Out
, for example. What then, is the point of regeneration even existing if every removal spell dodges it?
The existence Divine Reckoning
doesn't mean anything about a Day of Judgment
reprint, most blocks do have their own variant on Wrath of God
: Akroma's Vengeance
, Austere Command
, Rout
, Phyrexian Rebirth
, Hallowed Burial
, and Final Judgment
are some examples. It's just an iconic white effect that needs to always be present in order to balance the game.
April 20, 2012 12:21 p.m.