Question regarding card draw in Modern Grixis
Modern forum
Posted on March 31, 2015, 3:07 p.m. by malfeischylde
I've been looking through lists, as I am generating my own deck ideas, and I realized that there are some trends that cross over many, even between the formats of Midrange, full control, cruel control, etc. Why have the two-of Think Twice in so many lists, and then two-of Serum Visions? Is there really no better options? I mean, instant speed is obviously best, and scry is excellent. Yes, they work OK together, but think twice is kind of overpriced, and serum is a sorcery. I dunno, I just think there must be something better.
MindAblaze says... #3
Draw sucks for Grixis without using Bob or Phyrexian Arena. There are lots of spells that cantrip (Electrolyze,) but strong consistent draw is really lacking leaving you with Think Twice as one of the better options.
March 31, 2015 3:12 p.m.
Serum Visions is just really good at fixing your mana, you can draw a card, and then scry 2 to make sure you're getting what you want. Rather than providing actual card advantage, it provides a boon to your future draws, the scry 2 being the more powerful, and instant speed being awesome, you may want to test Magma Jet. While not drawing cards, or replacing itself like Serum Visions, it can go 1 for 1 with a card and give you the much needed scry 2.
March 31, 2015 3:22 p.m.
Strong card advantage isn't a massive thing in modern outside of Sphinx Rev and Bob.
Serum Visions is well loved because not only does it cantrip, it also allows you to fix your next two draws just to ensure you don't pick up awful cards.
Think Twice is so often seen because it really is about the cheapest straight up card advantage you can get.
Anticipate MAY make a splash. Looking at the top 3 is fairly powerful. Though Telling Time has been around for a while and saw almost no play.
March 31, 2015 3:26 p.m.
OtakulordAndrew says... #6
I personally prefer Electrolyze, Remand, and Cryptic Command for card draw in my cruel control grixis decks with Serum Visions, and Izzet Charm being sideboard options for the matches where I need to cycle through my deck quicker. Magma Jet also works well for this.
March 31, 2015 3:31 p.m.
malfeischylde says... #7
I personally have always loved Telling Time, and I also don't understand the lack of use. Yeah, Magma Jet also does the scry, and yes, I like it for the same reason, and would consider running it over Lightning Bolt for the same reason. If it didn't cost so much, I also like Foresee. Bob is great, minus the drawback which disallows the use of higher casting cost cruel control cards. It is, indeed, a puzzlement. Why not run the newer Font of Fortunes or Weave Fate or Jace's Ingenuity as an alternative?
March 31, 2015 3:45 p.m.
malfeischylde says... #8
I also like Remand, although without a Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek, 'it' would still need to be dealt with. Electrolyze is a great cantrip. Thoughts on it vs. Magma Jet's scry?
March 31, 2015 3:47 p.m.
I personally like Thought Scour but that's being run in my grixis delve deck that wants a full yard.
March 31, 2015 3:53 p.m.
malfeischylde says... #10
Yeah, someone ran that in an esper tokens deck at a Modern event I was at to some amount of success.
March 31, 2015 3:58 p.m.
OtakulordAndrew says... #11
@ malfeischylde both Electrolyze, and Magma Jet are nice I tend to prefer Electrolyze myself due to where it fits into my deck's curve and the fact that I can split the damage if the situation calls for it though both are great cards and there is no reason why you can't run both. Also I'm surprised no one has mentioned Divination although it is not my personal preference for modern as it is 3cmc at sorcery speed for 2 cards but if you need card draw it is an option. It would nice if wizards printed an instant speed equivalent to Divination for card draw and if they where worried about it being to powerful make it double blue in the cmc to make splashing for it more difficult.
March 31, 2015 4:07 p.m.
Foresee seems like a really good card for the late game. The mana cost isn't that terrible of a problem in a decent control build. Sucks that it's not instant speed, though.
I used to play cruel control some time ago and Magma Jet does a lot of work setting up your draws, as do Drown in Sorrow and Condescend. And Phyrexian Arena is the best source of card advantage for CC, hands down. Not that Dark Confidant isn't awesome, but 1- it dies to my own board wipes, which I ran more than a few of, and 2- I had to make absolutely sure Bob wouldn't draw me a Cruel Ultimatum, and it just wasn't worth the effort.
March 31, 2015 4:34 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #14
I personally feel that Commune with Lava as a singleton would do a great deal for Grixis Control. Not enough, to bring it to the forefront of the format, but it is an underrated option. Cast it at the end of an opponent's turn late game and now you have access to a wide range of options in which to select from. It also can filter out the excess land that you don't need or want. There are clearly risks with the card (hence only run 1) but it provides options since most of what Grixis can do is equally fine at sorcery speed, especially late game when you're looking to close.
March 31, 2015 5:54 p.m.
Grixis also has Night's Whisper so you can draw the cards immediately instead of waiting for Phyrexian Arena to kick in. It also allows you to play higher cost cards that wouldn't be available to a deck using Dark Confidant.
March 31, 2015 7:33 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #16
Shadow of Doubt is an insane card. Land destruction/search nerf/cantrip. Yes. Since you can cast it of 
, it fits right into Grixis.
March 31, 2015 7:36 p.m.
malfeischylde says... #17
I'm a fan of Condescend. I use it in pauper, but think that an xtap can be an issue in other formats without abother counter backup. Maybe a Dispel.
March 31, 2015 8:05 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #18
I prefer Repeal to condescend I think Blue Moon has used both... Aether Spellbomb is good for getting around protection from and is a cantrip if u don't need the Vapor Snag anyway I like Think Twice as it's perfect when u already have to hold mana open for Remand, Mana Leak, Abrupt Decay etc. also it's at the same mana rate as Sphinx's Revelation 2 cards for 5 mana but can be broken up. Worst case it can be dumped to Liliana of the Veil.
April 1, 2015 10:21 a.m.
malfeischylde says... #19
Ok, I seem to be going with this as a first draft. Let me know what you think. I somehow seem to suspect that there is something funky going on with my mama base, but I don't know what to cut, anyway. I kind of like the idea of where it is going, but I think I still have some drafting to do, yet. Thanks for all the input, everyone! Oh, and PS: let me know what you think of the Wrench Mind on the sideboard as a post game 1 addition if my opponent isn't playing affinity or reanimate....
April 3, 2015 4:20 a.m.
Consume the Meek in the mainboard should be Damnation.
You need more early game plays, you're lacking those essential two mana hard counters and killspells. Mana Leak should be your bread and butter.
You've missed Cryptic Command which is just WAY too good to pass up on if you're playing control. It's about the only card you can rely on a strict hard counter, and card draw source.
Mana base in Grixis is a nightmare. You kind of need BUR on T2 so you can cast Terminate or Mana Leak. I would suggest going heavy on fetchlands. You have about 4 at the moment. You should be on 8-10. Go light on shocklands (somewhere around 3-6). Try to get in 2-3 manlands, and the rest should be basics. Heavy on fetchlands and heavy on basics is a good way to go in modern at the moment.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is too expensive for modern. Even Cruel Ultimatum is borderline unplayable. Against Abzan for example ultimatum is really bad. Sacrifice a creature - lingering souls token. Discard three cards - they'll be useless discard spells like Thoughtseize or things with flashback like Lingering Souls. Lose 5 life - that's why we play 4 Siege Rhino. Against Twin it's too slow and too vulnerable. It's a really good card that puts you very ahead but it doesn't win. In fact, if you're on 7 mana just play something that can instawin the game like Karn Liberated (allows you to exile their land).
April 3, 2015 4:34 a.m.
malfeischylde says... #21
Ok, np. So let's say I put in more fetch lands, should I cut some cards, and put in more mana in general? I mean, fetches, minus the Urborg, don't tap for mana, and there is no mana fetch in BUR except Gem of Becoming.... I do see what yoyu're saying about Karn. Maybe I'll cut an ultimatum for another land? As to command, I just don't like the casting cost having so many blue taps. I don't know. I haven't played this archetype in this format, but I just feel like the card might be a dead draw too often. Your experience is to the contrary, I suppose?
April 3, 2015 4:43 a.m.
25 lands in control is a good amount. Fetches don't tap for mana but you can activate a fetchland at instant speed and search for a land AND THEN tap the land and play a counterspell in response.
Cryptic command is kind of necessary. Which is why grixis is a horrible deck to play because yes the UUU requirement is very difficult. You need as many cards that offer you multiple functions. Once you manage to cast a cryptic to counter a spell and draw a card, then next turn manage to snapcaster to give cryptic flashback and again counter a spell and draw a card - you won't go back. The value is just INSANE. I would recommend going hard on BU and perhaps cutting back slightly on R. Or go hard on UR and cut back on B. 3 colour control decks to tend to be two main and one splash.
April 3, 2015 4:49 a.m.
" I would recommend going hard on BU and perhaps cutting back slightly on R. Or go hard on UR and cut back on B."
THIS. You don't want to spread your colors evenly in a Grixis deck. From my experience, it should be U/B with a tiny red splash for Cruel Ultimatum (which IS a pain in the ass to play, but should be in there somewhere even if only as a 1-of, IMO) and a few Lightning Bolts / Terminates, plus some sideboard tech (Rakdos Charm and Fulminator Mage, mainly).
And I agree about Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker having no place in your deck. He's an overcosted Cruel Ultimatum that takes two turns to go off - trust me, you'll ALWAYS wish you were casting an Ultimatum instead of him.
April 3, 2015 9:05 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #27
I don't really see the point of playing Grixis beyond cheap KTK fetches?
Just build Grixis 8rack.
April 3, 2015 12:04 p.m.
Because 8rack is kind of gimmicky and almost completely destroyed by most Junk or Control builds around at the moment (Abrupt Decay, Qasali Pridemage, Mana Leak versus Ensnaring Bridge, Wilt-Leaf Liege and Loxodon Smiter versus untargeted discard like Liliana of the Veil).
Grixis control has access to some of the most powerful spells in the game. Terminate is probably the best removal since Siege Rhino is around.
April 3, 2015 12:13 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #29
Those were actually 2 separate thoughts but anyway I really like Victim of Night which I dunno why people stopped playing since it hits Siege Rhino ...I guess in favor of Path?
April 3, 2015 12:17 p.m.
Yeh I think Path is just better. Victim is great if you're not in W.
April 3, 2015 12:18 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #31
Thread starter how about a Fae build with some of reds SB cards like Shatterstorm or u could make a Dark Blue Moon deck...
April 3, 2015 12:21 p.m.
malfeischylde says... #32
All good ideas, and I was thinking on my drive home of making red the splash. It's funny you said that, square711. @ChiefBell I still don't love path. Sometimes it gives an infuriating land advantage. I usually play junk pox in modern, so I've lived that experience. Not so much fun. @APPLE01DOJ I think you're missing the Grixis point, a little. I do hear the " not even spread comment," though. Yeah, I wasn't trying. It just worked out that way. Every other Grixis deck I've ever made has been splash red. See: Tiny Grixis - No Hand, No Problem, for example.
April 3, 2015 1:25 p.m.
ChiefBell, Siege Rhino and Taz made path necessary, I'm afraid. Though if you have access to Terminate then you're doing well.
April 3, 2015 2:13 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #35
I AM missing the Grixis point, I was asking what is the point of Grixis?
April 3, 2015 2:46 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #36
Also Blightning kicks ass. Hits the opponent right when you need it. Just throwing that out there since it seems to always be overlooked & I think is worthy of a spot in a Grixis build.
April 3, 2015 2:49 p.m.
malfeischylde says... #37
Agreed, and I'd run blightning if I had space. I love the card in a straight discard themed deck. Issue there is choice. Grixis is a mix of control, removal, damage and, usually one to three threats backed up with protection and answers. Often the "threat" is mana intense, like Cruel Ultimatum reused or recurred by Snapcaster Mages, or Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, or some such rediculous thing. It's fun to play, and very difficult to tune. Then again, I would enjoy it. I am a dirty player-my first love is loam / pox control. Lol.
April 3, 2015 4:34 p.m.
malfeischylde says... #38
@ChiefBell yeah. I am putting the path count on my sb to either 2 or 3. Haven't decided which. I usually do ok with my current removal suite. Victim of Night actually does hard work, and Abrupt Decay thankfully hits varolz, if I see him.
April 3, 2015 4:36 p.m.
Abrupt Decay won't actually kill Varolz, given they have a creature to sacrifice. He's one troll warrior who won't go down without eating all his friends, and then scavenging their dead bodies.
April 4, 2015 7:27 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #40
I think only 1 deck runs Varolz (Dredge) and as a 1 of so it's not much of a threat.
Abrupt Decay hits most of modern. Even though it's not as in favor right now it's pretty much the best removal In modern. Hits things Path to Exile and Terminate miss like Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles. ...plus "can't be countered" is some of the most powerful words a card can have printed on it as it means unless it'll resolve.
April 4, 2015 9:24 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #41
Ignore "unless" in the last sentence... Oh how tappedout needs an edit button
April 4, 2015 9:25 a.m.
The but unfortunately whit Abzan being around 10% of the meta it's devalued because it fails to hit Rhino or Taz. It certainly WAS the best removal spell in modern but now I dislike it because it fails to hit the things that you need to hit or you will die.
April 4, 2015 9:33 a.m.
malfeischylde says... #43
Alternatively, I may try out this build instead: Modern Grixis Midrange Delve. It's a different take on a similar idea, shifting from straight control to midrange, and running a few delve creatures, ala Chapin's Esper deck, only Grixis and with Faithless Looting. I can't get a hold of any more Liliana of the Veils than I have right now (in my Loam/Pox deck), but if I ever do, I'd swap out a couple of cards, and stick them in here, too. Maybe, currently, I can run a one-of as a 60th card, because I have four, and am only using three. Anyway, feel free to offer critique on this as well. Thanks,e everyone, for all the advice!
April 6, 2015 6:48 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #44
My advice is just use a proxy. When it's relevant swap things around from decks. I keep most of my decks in plain black sleeves so that parts are interchangable when they need to be.
April 6, 2015 10:37 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #45
I dunno I think it'll evolve back into favor. I remember back when people ran it as 3-1 and 2-2 and it worked up to a 4 of.
I noticed wizards scaled the standard removal back to normal & Golgari is due for a new tool. So hopes are high. Pernicious Deed would be nice. That or something that can deal with Manlands. ...maybe they'll even give us an instant speed Pulse. That would be sick.
April 6, 2015 10:46 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #47
Haha I understood it perfectly. My phones auto correct makes me sound like a retard half the time too. Changes "i" to "u". Like what idiot though that wood be good to implement.
April 6, 2015 10:59 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #48
Ironically I know the difference between would and wood.
tclaw12 says... #2
Think Twice is actually pretty good imo. I also like Mystical Teachings. I'm not a huge fan of Serum Visions, simply because it isn't actual card advantage, but in a more Midrange shell I think it could be fine. Blue Sun's Zenith is always an option if you are willing to commit the mana.
March 31, 2015 3:11 p.m.