Cards you don't understand
General forum
Posted on Sept. 2, 2013, 8:46 p.m. by Jay
So I'm going to start a series of articles based around explaining cards that have complicated abilities, or simple abilities that are difficult to understand. If there are any suggestions you have for inclusions let me know and I'll try and fit them in.
I'm currently thinking:
Tarmogoyf
Dark Confidant
Fetches
Shocks
Bitterblossom
Gifts Ungiven
Vendilion Clique
Thoughtseize
Remand
Deathrite Shaman
Knight of the Reliquary
Life from the Loam
Brainstorm
If you think any of these aren't relevant enough to include (and provide a reason) I'll remove them, as well.
I'm also wondering how you think they should be sorted into articles. I'm thinking of doing either format or things with similar effects: for example, why paying life is good, etc.
Let me know what you guys think, the sooner the better so I can get writing!
I'm looking more at staple cards (preferably for eternal formats). Strionic Resonator is confuser, but how many people will realistically run into it as compared to Dark Confidant ?
September 2, 2013 8:54 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #4
They're mostly relevant in modern, but I don't think there's anything really hard to understand here. I think it's important to explain Gifts Ungiven and how it interacts with the veiled zone of your deck. If you'd like assistance or someone to bounce ideas off of, I'm game, drop me a line.
I think maybe breaking it down between cards that are staples in modern, legacy, standard, etc. would be a great idea, or perhaps how certain combos work so people know what to expect when they see a certain card about to come into play.
September 2, 2013 9:06 p.m.
Well, it's mostly geared towards new players, players starting a format, or just someone who honestly doesn't see a card's use. It's not for experienced players nearly as much.
Do you have any examples for the combos? I like the idea of doing it by format: That would allow Modern, Legacy, EDH, maybe Standard, and if it's really necessary Vintage.
September 2, 2013 9:09 p.m.
MTG_Player says... #6
Yawgmoth's Will Necropotence pay 1 life to draw a card? Isn't that bad?
September 2, 2013 9:11 p.m.
These aren't really complicated so much as not intuitive, for the most part. Thoughtseize, for example, is not hard to understand what it does so much as why what it does is good.
I'd break it down even further than this. Separate it into even more general topics (/, life as a resource, graveyard as resource, saccing lands, giving opponents card advantage, etc.) and do an article on those instead of by format. This way you won't have to repeat and people can learn about how to use these types of mechanics, rather than just certain cards.
September 2, 2013 9:31 p.m.
I was just using Thoughtseize as an example for the life as a resource thing.
The idea isn't complex cards nearly as much instances where you wouldn't understand why something useful. That's why I posted this: To see what kinds of cards people are commonly misunderstanding.
September 2, 2013 9:35 p.m.
That's why I suggested topics instead of format staples. Asking for specific cards will get you things like Strionic Resonator or issues with how Protection or hexproof work, based on what questions end up in the Q&A. What I think you are looking for are strategies that are not intuitive or are unappealing for newcomers, despite their effectiveness. Format staples are good to know, but knowing how these strategies in general work is better, since you can translate from one format to another.
Another group might be cards that seem detrimental to both sides, like board sweepers.
September 2, 2013 9:44 p.m.
I think I follow you, but I'll just tell you my idea for my first article:
I was thinking one of two things:
Explaining how to sacrifice your own resources to hurt your opponent: Sire Of Insanity , Thoughtseize , Wasteland , etc.
Staple Modern cards that aren't clear in their use: Gifts Ungiven , Remand , Dark Confidant , etc.
September 2, 2013 9:52 p.m.
I think that the kind of article made by 1 is better than the kind made by 2. Staples often hard to find and are replaced with other things at fnm and equivalents. Better to just give people a general idea and let them figure out the implementation from card to card.
September 2, 2013 9:56 p.m.
Okay, here are some ideas for articles then:
Piles (Gifts Ungiven , Fact or Fiction ) or possibly choices in general Browbeat
Sacrificing Resources (as above)
Lands (Fetches, Shocks, and Manlands)
Disruption (Vendilion Clique , Remand , Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir )
2-for-1 Value (Lingering Souls , Think Twice , Snapcaster Mage )
These are just rough ideas, but I'm open to other suggestions!
September 2, 2013 10:05 p.m.
Just abandon all of the other articles and try to explain Ice Cauldron to me.
September 2, 2013 10:08 p.m.
Liliana of the Veil would probably be a better choice than Fact or Fiction since it applies to Modern a good amount and currently Standard.
September 2, 2013 10:11 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #16
If you're looking to explain why certain cards are highly valued, you have a pretty good list compiled already, but I think it's also important to show how cards are used in various decks when trying to explain their value or to prime people for a format because that's really what it comes down to when you talk about cards. I think that some combos/mechanics to look at would incude pod, kiki, twin exarch, human reanimator (while it's still around in standard), gifts and dredge (even though it's really only vintage now). Maybe on fetches you could explain the idea of mana fixing in various decks too based off of opening hands (ie Jund and Rock being able to Goyf turn two, Lili turn three).
A lot of standard cards are pretty straight forward. I mean, I guess you could explain what Pithing Needle means by non-mana ability, but there's not a whole ton there to explain.
September 2, 2013 10:12 p.m.
Those look good. I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I'm not really the target audience.
An idea for another set of articles: Cards that seem good but really suck.
September 2, 2013 10:13 p.m.
The cauldron... So... It lets you play something later? I guess it has uses for flashing stuff in...
And yea Lily could go in I was just going off the top of my head.
All good ideas Bunny, however I want to be careful not to just make a series of primers for each format hahaha.
September 2, 2013 10:14 p.m.
If you guys know of anybody who might need these articles please link them here so I can hear their thoughts too!
September 2, 2013 10:16 p.m.
What's not to get about Ice Cauldron ?
You pick a card, say a really expensive one like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn that you can't cast yet because you haven't got enough mana. You pay say, X=6 and tap the cauldron. You Exile Emrakul, and put a charge counter on the cauldron, which it remembers as representing 6 mana.
Then next turn, you tap it, removing the counter, which adds 6 mana to your mana pool which you can only use to play Emrakul. You pay the rest of the mana cost as well and you get your Emrakul much earlier than you could have otherwise.
Or how about another use for it:
You only have 1 card in hand, a sorcery you'd really like to cast next turn, like Primal Surge but while it's still their turn, your opponent throws a Thoughtseize at you which will make you have to discard. But wait! You can respond by paying some amount of mana (maybe all 10 but even only 1 if you want) to tuck that guy right under the Cauldron. Thoughtseize hits nothing, and then next turn you go ahead and cast that Surge from under the Cauldron!
September 2, 2013 10:21 p.m.
Bobgalarneau says... #21
You could add Sensei's Divining Top to your list. Took me a while to understand the different ways to abuse it, and to use the stack to to put the top back in the deck and NOT draw it back next turn...
September 2, 2013 10:25 p.m.
Maybe I've just been playing long enough that no one else is contemporary to the Ice Cauldron joke. My apologies.
September 2, 2013 10:27 p.m.
You can call the article series
"I know you're a Timmy and don't understand, but these cards are good."
September 2, 2013 10:27 p.m.
@Barandis I could have pulled Ice Cauldron in booster packs off the front counter too, and either nobody made Ice Cauldron jokes in my meta, or you just didn't actually make a joke, just obliquely referenced one in a way that was indistinguishable from actually asking about the card.
September 2, 2013 10:29 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #26
I figured it would be worthwhile since you wanted to write it for beginners.
September 2, 2013 10:29 p.m.
I don't want to make my readers feel stupid, because really you can't blame them. If it's never explained to you I can hardly expect you to understand why Gifts Ungiven is used. Even if you're a great player you don't always know the loophole.
September 2, 2013 10:30 p.m.
Even without the strategies that make Gifts a truly powerful card, it's still a combo tutor and draw spell for 4 mana at instant speed. I think why it is a good card is not a mystery to anybody, though maybe not everybody gets why it is a great card.
September 2, 2013 10:32 p.m.
Just an example. Sometimes you just need to see something in writing for it to really click.
And Bunny that was for Devonin, you're all good.
September 2, 2013 10:33 p.m.
I'm not sure how you're going to write an article explaining why Brainstorm is a good card without making people feel stupid.
September 2, 2013 10:35 p.m.
Not so much why it's good, but for example how to use it with Fetches, what to take/tuck, etc.
September 2, 2013 10:36 p.m.
crystalizeq says... #33
I think a big one to include here would be Necropotence . A lot of people don't understand why this card is amazing, and frankly, I don't see why either.
Another thing you can include is cards banned in formats such as modern. Because if someone wanted to make a modern deck, and checked the banned list, and saw cards like Ponder and Preordain there, they might not understand why they are good. Or talk about cards with setbacks, such as Abrupt Decay , Mental Misstep , or Jace, Architect of Thought 's -2 ability.
September 2, 2013 11:11 p.m.
Why card filtering is powerful, and often bannable, or why certain seemingly niche cards like Spell Snare , Mental Misstep , or the artifact lands, are so good.
You could probably write a whole article on Vexing Devil .
September 2, 2013 11:17 p.m.
"It's one more damage than lightning bolt for the same mana"
Yup.
September 2, 2013 11:18 p.m.
Bobgalarneau says... #37
Or a whole article on how to use Browbeat in multiplayer.
September 2, 2013 11:23 p.m.
There are plenty of deck types that you could add in here if you want to explain more than just individual cards. For example; modular, eggs, dredge, affinity, the countless combos in EDH and all of that jazz. For those it is good to explain why they are so effective at winning and how they do it, perhaps even go so far as to explain why certain decks influenced the game so much. If you wanted to go into deck building theory that deeply a good example to touch on would be the first real control deck "The Deck" and why it was important
As cards go some suggestions might be; Swords to Plowshares /Path to Exile , Necropotence , Regrowth , Ancestral Vision , Bloodbraid Elf , Glimpse of Nature , Golgari Grave-Troll , Goblin Guide , Sword of the Meek , and Skullclamp . While most of these cards might not be particularly confusing and most players might understand that they are good, they might not understand just how good they really are. A lot of this list is banned in modern but you could talk about why they are. If they aren't banned or anything you can talk about how the pros vastly out weighs the cons like with path and goblin guide. Some of these cards might not be the most popular, but a lot of them represent a whole lot of ideas that are really important to the game.
September 3, 2013 3:04 a.m.
I think you're looking at this on too much of a micro, instead of macro, level. A lot of these cards use life as a resource, or they generate lots of value/card advantage. An article discussing those concepts might be better for newer players who don't understand why paying life is as much a resource as drawing (i.e. milling) cards. Or that Tarmogoyf has a lot of value for its mana cost. Or that Gifts Ungiven is a one card combo, similar to Fact or Fiction and Intuition .
September 3, 2013 3:44 a.m.
gheridarigaaz says... #40
The swords and jitte, the difference between swords to plowshares and path to exile, and other cards along the same stream like Oust . Is there something missing with my knowledge of Snapcaster Mage ? The dual-man-lands. Mana dorks like Noble Hierarch . Quirion Ranger , Fire/Ice , Stifle . Voice of Resurgence ,. Arcbound Ravager . Theres definitely a wrong time to cast Force of Will , Stoneforge Mystic , why Skullclamp is banned. AEther Vial . A lot of modern masters stuff... funny how red seems lacking... barring Grim Lavamancer and kikijiki
September 3, 2013 5:42 a.m.
Good ideas guys, I'll definitely include many of those examples.
sylvannos, I'm hoping to have each article be a macro, but go into depth explaining it using the micros. If you look at my above examples, it would be like explaining cards that seem like they hurt you, but end up hurting the opposition more. With that as the theme, I could use LD lands, paying life, possibly boardwipes if that ends up a common thing, etc.
September 3, 2013 7:08 a.m.
Explain Indestructibility (maybe Indestructibility ) and protection and how they work with Cruel Edict .
September 3, 2013 9 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #45
lolbanding
Let's do an article on Shahrazad !
September 3, 2013 9:08 a.m.
I'm kind of new / returning. What about talking about key feature cards from specific expansions or blocks. There are a few I missed - but since I missed them, I am not sure what to recommend!
@Bobgalarneau I didn't know you could do that with the top! I am curious now.
I think I'm kind of getting why people like Necropotence but while I have experimented with grabbing lots of cards from it, I haven't totally gotten the hang of knowing when to go ahead and draw a ton of cards and when to just draw a handful or get back up to a full hand.
However, the biggest things that I think I don't understand (at least in my opinion LOL) have to do more with multiplayer group dynamics. The rest is just needing experience that I don't have yet against certain combos and cough reading cards carefully cough.
September 3, 2013 9:13 a.m.
Bobgalarneau says... #47
@ r3v13w it's stack shenanigans 101. Activate Sensei's Divining Top first ability and in response activate it's second one. So you'll draw a card. Then you can move the top so you won't draw it next turn.
It can be dangerous, if you have to shuffle you will loose your top.....
September 3, 2013 6:18 p.m.
Any of the wish cards Cunning Wish being the most playable Death Wish being the least could find a way onto this list...
SharuumNyan says... #2
Put Strionic Resonator in there, because I've had to explain it to so many people and/or call a judge to explain it.
September 2, 2013 8:49 p.m.