Counterspells
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on July 6, 2015, 11:07 p.m. by enpc
You love them or hate them, but either way, you've most likely had them be a part of your games.
I've seen a lot of variance in the kind of counterpsells people run and not just between a casual and competitive deck.
This questions goes out mainly to the control players - what are you looking for in a counterspell? Are there any that you think are defiantely worth running, or not worth running? What do you think about conditional counters, or "counter target spell unless its controller pays 
" style cards?
And the other important question, how many should a deck run? Can you have too many?
Also please, we all know about Force of Will and Mana Drain so try to think more broadly than just these two.
July 6, 2015 11:11 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #4
Forbid works wonders in any deck that's drawing heavily- just discard excess lands, and always have a counter up. Pact of Negation is also kind of crucial, since the five mana is easy to come by, and the surprise value of countering while tapped out is well worth it.
July 6, 2015 11:16 p.m.
CharlesMandore: My main experience with running Cryptic Command is Modern, where you have a lot more control over mana fixing. Obviously in mono-blue decks it's usually a non issue, however how do you find it goes in two plus coloured decks?
-x-Juuzou-x-x-: With the noew "no tucking" rule, what's your opinion of Dissipate or Faerie Trickery compared to Hinder? Also, do you prefer it to Spell Crumple? How do you feel about the haste given from Delay?
EDIT
FinchFalcon: Do you find you pay for the buyback much on Forbid?
July 6, 2015 11:19 p.m. Edited.
Epochalyptik says... #6
I'm a proponent of one-drop counterspells in combo-control decks.
Dispel
Swan Song
Spell Pierce
Flusterstorm
Those are the big ones.
Also, I'm a proponent of non-blue counterspells, especially in combo-control decks.
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Guttural Response
Because I play competitively, counterspells need to be efficient, relevant, and impactful. I'll play Remand because it's good enough in a format with five turns on average. I'll obviously play Mana Drain, Counterspell, and Force of Will. Pact of Negation is fine because you don't have the downside on your combo turn. Misdirection is another FoW for counterspells.
I avoid high-cost counterspells. You won't see me running Cancel. I'm one of the players who actually thinks about Cryptic Command rather than making it an autoinclude. Rewind isn't even close to the mark.
Soft counters definitely have their place. They're good in counter wars, and they're often cheaper to cast than traditional counterspells.
As for the total number, it should depend on your deck and on your meta. I run about 13 in my deck. Some decks can run more. Some fewer. There's no magic number. You want to draw enough playable counterspells that you generally have the option to stop a play, but they shouldn't come in such quantities as to interfere with your ability to advance your own position.
July 6, 2015 11:24 p.m.
CharlesMandore says... #7
Well if you're good on the draw, and your mana base is designed with consistency then you shouldn't have a problem. I don't normally play EDH but it has versatility that control needs.
July 6, 2015 11:26 p.m.
FinchFalcon says... #8
Very frequently. I run a lot of card draw mechanics in my Esper Oloro deck, and find myself often having more lands than I can play. In a pinch, I've also been known to discard Avacyn's and Elesh Norn's and then resurrect them with Karmic Guide or Phyrexian Delver. I find Forbid to be a better late-game counter, when I've got my draw engine up and running, but it's still playable early on.
Also, I run Cryptic Command in my Esper deck- it all depends on your mana fixing...let's just say I get really screwed by Blood Moon.
July 6, 2015 11:27 p.m.
In my Bant EDH I run four counter spells: Render Silent, Voidslime, Bant Charm, and Muddle the Mixture. My deck is synergy.dec, not so competitive, but is a real hassle once online. Render Silent is pretty much the best value you can get; stop their combo, stop their Craterhoof Behemoth, and basically make them pass turn. Voidslime can stop annoying triggers and planeswalker abilities. Bant Charm has other modes that are sometimes relevant, and Muddle the Mixture can tutor for a couple key cards in my deck.
July 6, 2015 11:38 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #10
I'm a big fan of Mindbreak Trap for counter wars, storm decks, or against a spell-based combo. also kind of good against Maelstrom Wanderer, though you can't hit all three of the cards, just two.
July 6, 2015 11:46 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Render Silent reminds me: American decks have the option of running the Sunforger toolbox with Render Silent, Absorb, Ojutai's Command, Double Negative, and Counterflux.
July 6, 2015 11:46 p.m. Edited.
asasinater13 says... #12
also a big fan of Voidslime and Render Silent. Not a highly-competitive player though. It's actually kind of unfortunate in my current group no one runs good targets for Voidslime's activated/triggered ability counter or Render Silent's Silence effect.
July 6, 2015 11:49 p.m.
It seems like in general people lean more heavily towards versatility compared to mana cost.
So what are people's feelings or Arcane Denial, Mana Leak, Negate, etc which although have a drawback are very easy to cast? How do people feel about scalable counterspells like Syncopate or Condescend?
July 7, 2015 12:30 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #14
Exclude is one of my favorites because I too am a fan of cheap counter spells, but if they also work to refill your hand with more answers... Pure gold.
July 7, 2015 2:19 a.m.
asasinater13 says... #15
scalable aren't that great, a lot of combos involve infinite mana and they do nothign to counter. I tend to stay away from anything with a "unless its controller pays in its text.
I'm a fan of Negate depending on the deck, generally I like counterspells to be all-encompassing and don't mind three mana (Again, non-competitive) though Negate is a good exception. it hits a lot in walkers, opposing counters, and big spells like Genesis Wave.
I'm also a fan of Last Word. Being uncounterable is pretty good against combo-control, though again, casual so being able to use it early is less important to me than a competitive player.
July 7, 2015 3:11 a.m.
The issue with Last Word is that it only works as an aggressive counter. You can't really use it to protect stuff effectively. But using it to shut down stuff is great.
July 7, 2015 3:28 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #17
Of the ones that tax, I think only Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are good enough because they tax twice what they cost.
July 7, 2015 8 a.m.
Karns_Pyromancer says... #18
I don't play competitively nor do I play control at the moment, so please keep that in mind.
In my current favorite deck, Tasigur's Courtroom, I run three counterspells: Logic Knot, Forbid and Silumgar's Command. I find these to be enough to swing the game my way while still offering enough control to scare an opponent. I have enough Delve to pretty much ensure what I get back with Tass or I just buyback Forbid.
July 7, 2015 10:39 a.m.
GarthaLeBleu says... #19
I run Turn Aside and Rebuff the Wicked in my Sydri, Galvanic Genius deck to help protect my combo pieces.
July 7, 2015 11:43 a.m.
Megalomania says... #20
I prefer pitch/free counterspells like:
Misdirection, Pact of Negation and Force of Will
Low cmc counterspells like
Spell Pierce, Swan Song, Flusterstorm, Delay, Dispel, Negate and even Arcane Denial
are also pretty handy in counterfights.
July 7, 2015 8:59 p.m.
Indigoindigo says... #21
Arcane Denial and Dream Fracture is probably my two favorite counterspells. None of my decks are control-oriented, but sometimes you need an answer if you'd lose the game on the spot otherwise. Desertion is also pretty good, and the high CMC makes you save it for something actually worth stopping instead of just countering because you can.
In my playgroup, a good counterspell is when your opponents shrug and say "Ok, that's fine". Drawing cards is a pretty friendly substitute for having your plan interrupted. If I were a competitive player I'd play Epochs countersuite.
July 14, 2015 6:58 a.m.
Graveyard decks need to be answered too so either Hinder or spell crumple.
And I'd use Delay as a non creature counter or use it to set up another counterspell.
July 14, 2015 10:04 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #23
Due to the new tuck rule, I replaced Hinder and Spell Crumple with Dissipate and Faerie Trickery because they are infinitely better at hosing graveyard decks.
July 14, 2015 10:40 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
I agree with Dissipate and its ilk as replacements for Hinder and its ilk. Exile is a much more permanent and unanswerable solution than tucking regarding normal spells. Tutors make tuck a less than optimal answer.
July 14, 2015 11:18 a.m.
Personally I've found Dissipate and Mindbreak Trap to be my favourite aggressive counterspells.
July 14, 2015 5:29 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #26
I don't really think Dissipate qualifies as an "aggressive" counterspell because it comes in at CMC 3. If by aggressive you mean it can sometimes hose other effects, I suppose that's a little more accurate.
July 14, 2015 5:35 p.m.
Aggressive in that you use it to shut down other people's stuff instead of trying to protect your own.
July 14, 2015 5:59 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #28
My meta is a bit unconventional/casual, so in the one deck I run counters in I run big dumb ones, the theme being that they must give me something besides just a countered spell. The only good ones are Mana Drain and Cryptic Command, the rest are magnificent garbage like Overwhelming Intellect, Draining Whelk, Desertion, Plasm Capture, and Mystic Snake. Granted, that deck has an abusive relationship with Prophet of Kruphix, so the high CMC issue is mitigated somewhat.
If I wanted to get serious I'd stick to any counter that costs 2 or less or has alternate casting costs. I can dig counters with targeting conditions like Swan Song, I'm less ok with counters your opponents can pay to ignore like Spell Pierce. I'd only run the latter if my meta had a lot of control that I'd need to counter.
July 14, 2015 11:30 p.m.
I think it's a good benchmark that if you're running fewer than 4 counterspells your deck either wants to lose them completely or increase the number you're playing. I run into players who only run 2 or 3 and I always ask them why they have counterspells in their deck. If you're trying to play a more control-heavy game, that number just isn't going to cut it. If you're trying to combo off, you either need more to protect your combo or you need fewer to get there faster.
Counterspells aren't a resource you can just dip your toe into. Either you stay dry or you dive in.
July 16, 2015 5:21 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #30
I would disagree about either dipping toes or going all the way into it. It's like having a one-of situational spell in a 60-card deck. They're pretty good when you draw them but not necessary for the deck to function.
July 16, 2015 8:27 p.m.
I think, especially in EDH, you'll probably find a lot of situational cards that deal with problems better than a single counterspell. Counterspells are only useful in a specific single moment. In a 100 card pile it's better to focus on solutions to problems that work for more than a single moment to deal with a problem. Unless you can be sure you'll consistently have a counterspell in your grip, it's not worth it, imo.
July 16, 2015 8:48 p.m.
Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with ibanner56. Sure, a counterspell out of nowhere is great and all, but its not consistent enough to rely on and too situational to help in a lot of circumstances. Honestly, I think that 7 is about the minimum number of counterspells a deck should run if its going to run them, however I much prefer more in the magnitude of 10+ for a proper control deck. Of course you can offset this using after the fact removal, however 3 counterspells and 2 removal effects a control deck does not make.
CharlesMandore says... #2
I believe Cryptic Command is more than viable in a control build.
July 6, 2015 11:10 p.m.