Counter target blue instant spell.
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|Duel Decks: Mind vs. Might (DDS)||Uncommon|
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|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Guttural Response occurrence in decks from the last year
All decks: 0.0%
Guttural Response Discussion
1 day ago
I think counter magic is perfectly fine as a concept. It's a way to deal with issues, before they actually become an issue and it examplifies one of blue's main weaknesses: Difficulty in dealing with the board. I used to hate counterspells when I got into Magic again (during Lorwyn, damn Faeries), as they simply seem like a disability to play the game; "I want to play something." - "You may not". I have since accepted their place in the game and their importance.
The reason I still do dislike counter magic is because it exists to provide a strength to cover a weakness. A weakness that since then has been partially filled out by strong answers to the board over the course of Magic's history. One of the main offenders is Cyclonic Rift , especially present in Commander and other multiplayer formats that are significantly slower than Duel Magic (1 on 1). Other offenders are cards that really should be enchantments, but opted for a more nefarious although simpler route: Curse of the Swine and Reality Shift , and their predecessors; Pongify and Rapid Hybridization .
As said by Berry in the article; Blue has the ability to change something from one thing to another. We have also seen various types of such polymorphing done in enchantment form; Darksteel Mutation , Lignify , Frogify . All of this makes perfect sense in what blue is capable of doing.
However doing a change irreversibly like the Curse of the Swine or Reality Shift, is giving hard answers to a color whose weakness is hard answers - at least on the board. Yeah, you replace them with a creature, but a much weaker creature and if a token, one you can permanently remove by having it change zone.
Another issue with counter magic is the tempo shift. The opponent casts a 5 mana spell, you cast a 2-3 mana counter spell. Suddenly there's a disparity of 2-3 mana in the counterspeller's favor. It is mainly equalized because the blue player must have ready mana, resulting in that player not developing their own board state. However that can again be offset by utilizing instant speed spells or abilities that either advance board state or card draw for the blue player.
If the blue player didn't have these chances to apply disparity in mana spent and benefit, the color would struggle to have meaningful strengths, I know that. However the issue is in finding the fine line between how much mana disparity is acceptable. The cat is out of the bag on this one, as there have already been printed numerous versions of unconditional counterspells that have set a precedent for what blue counterspells are allowed to do and how cheaply.
If you compare a counterspell to a destroy spell, the main difference is obviously zone of application and also timing of application. One proactive, one reactive (well actually both are reactive, but you probably know why I have to make a distinction). Reactive spells provide a lot more flexibility in when you're required to use them. Their main problem is that sometimes reactive spells are too late to cause the same mana disparity that a counterspell does. As soon as that permanent hits the battlefield, an ability may come into effect, be it triggered, static or active. A reactive spell cannot avoid that.
Also take into account that blue can deal with any spell in existence, with the possible exception of spells with Split Second, specifically designed to be uninteractive - and still they can be interacted with . If there's a spell that is uncounterable, you can get creative with Venser, Shaper Savant , Time Stop , Mindbreak Trap , Ashiok's Erasure , there's load of ways to get around "uncounterable". Blue is also the color that will straight up see a threat on the board and simply take it for themselves, with Control Magic , Gather Specimens , Blatant Thievery , Expropriate . Effectively a removal, card draw and threat all in one.
No other color can boast the same catch all mechanic. White comes close for something in the same ballpark, but it is still just a bleak imitation - as countermagic goes. And evidently look at that price tag.
In the earlier days of Magic, blue was not the only user of countermagic. I feel like you could provide other colors with more conditional types of countermagic, to better even it out. And not just anti countermagic like Guttural Response . Blue would still be the best, but not the sole user. - White is a color that protects itself, so something like Hindering Light is the most likely avenue to take White Countermagic, anything that touches my stuff - go away. Think Equinox in terms of templating but not necessarily that specific. Giving their spells on the stack protection from a color or supertype or plain "old" Hexproof. - Green already has an affinity to provide hexproof to their stuff, Heroic Intervention and Veil of Summer , so expanding on that seems reasonable. - Red could go the Fork / Shunt route but is unlikely to get countermagic that straight up nullifies other types of spells than spells with targets. - Black is kinda difficult. The usual is just to tack an alternative payment of life, cards or permanents on an otherwise Blue card. Black already have an indirect proactive answer through selective discard, like Duress . The issue is these are all sorcery speed, so if an opponent suddenly starts drawing a lot of cards, it can be difficult for black to be proactive in time. So perhaps just providing Duress at instant speed through a condition would be acceptable. Something like "Instant Duress may be cast as an instant if an opponent has drawn two or more cards this turn." / "Instant Duress may be cast as an instant if the target opponent has 5 or more cards in hand". Any kind of variation on that.
Of course some would talk about color pie bleeding/breaking, but ain't that already happening by giving blue hard removal (by proxy) and large scale soft board removal? I know some of these issues are mainly aimed at multiplayer formats, but we cannot ignore that Magic has grown to be something else than only Duel Magic (1 on 1). Blue's counter magic is here to stay, but is it too much to ask that the other colors can get even slightly in on the action if not directly, then indirectly by interacting more with the stack?
Green has one of the best palettes available to them for a slightly slower format; mana ramp, card draw, large threats, ability to scale well, protective measures, explosive finishers and a hell lot of combo potential and pieces.
I think Green is only beaten slightly by Black in terms of Commander due to tutors in a singleton format. And because Black can cheat mana costs or pays differently, has access to card draw and good finishers, along many more combo pieces.
Blue is one of the only colors that reliably can stop combo or finishers dead in their tracks. Reversibly, they are the color best suited to keep those combos or finishers uninterrupted. They have the best access to card advantage and resource manipulation. And extra turns.
There's a reason that many cEDH decks are mainly some variation of Sultai colors (Green, black and blue) with maybe one added color or full WUBRG. I think this picture would be more diverse, if more colors became able to interact better. The ability to interact is one of the core foundations and strengths of Magic. Counter magic is a pillar of this interaction, more colors should find a way to do it or something similar.
1 month ago
Thank you for your suggestions. The difference between gruul signet and talisman are minimal. Note under the future edits section, I will be testing out Dockside Extortionist in it's place due to all of the artifacts and enchantments in the meta. It can sometimes whiff, but it's worth trying. It also boosts my creature count.
Guttural Response - I'm not trying to make the deck anti-blue at the moment. The few anti-blue cards I have like Dosan and City of Solitude not only stop blue, but more importantly spot removal on my turn. Moreover it's only for instant spells. I would run Ricochet Trap prior to this as it is more flexible and still stops blue for the same cost.
Craterhoof Behemoth - Better in decks that go wide. This deck acts like a sniper, one powerful bullet as opposed to many smaller shots.
Blightsteel Colossus - If I were to add it, I would cut Kozilek, but the draw 4 is super useful and I am not a fan of infect, or else i would add Putrefax as well. Nothing wrong with the strategy, just not my cup of tea. Note I took out Aggravated Assault to ensure this deck is more fair.
Selvala's Stampede - Interesting, very interesting. I'm curious to see how this would play out. Thank you for bringing it to my attention
1 month ago
Guttural Response while yes it is anti-blue, having a straight up counter of your own to answer counter magic is fantastic and blue players do not expect it from the Gruul player. Further you can force them to double down and burn off another counter spell to keep down the play you're going for.
Further this sort of deck begs for Selvala's Stampede which most people will always respond with "Free" so you just wait to cast it until you've got plenty of permanents in hand, which can allow you to build a massive board state.
1 month ago
@BolasFucks This deck is a solid OK. The meta this deck is played in allows proxies and plays at between 7-8/10. I was testing to see how an effectively budgetless version would function. The answer is... not great, but not bad either.
Jund Eggs is a terrible idea as running without Second Sunrise , Faith's Reward , or any real stack interaction is kind of rough. I chose Korvold, Fae-Cursed King as a commander because I really like him in concept. I chose eggs as a "win-con" because I like the challenge of eggs in Jund. The deck functions.
Win Conditions require performing some variation of Eggs combo (replacing the aforementioned white cards with Scrap Mastery for a similar effect when possible) with Disciple of the Vault , Reckless Fireweaver , or Korvold, Fae-Cursed King out. If I'm able to go effectively infinite, I either ping the board down with the first two or draw my deck with my commander. With the big Dragon I can Chandra's Ignition for well above lethal. Beating face with him is a last resort, but a valuable one.
I run a variety of interaction:
Pia's Revolution does a surprisingly good job for pseudo recursion against low life targets, especially with how often artifacts go to the graveyard from play with this deck.
Noxious Revival hits key graveyard based combo pieces when we need it, or saves some of our own.
I think that just about covers all the odd parts, the rest are either Eggs, ways to get key parts, or more common pieces of interaction.
1 month ago
More mana generation would be good; stuff like Fyndhorn Elves , Birds of Paradise , Whisperer of the Wilds , Leafkin Druid , Domri, Anarch of Bolas , and Gruul Signet . Some good ramp options would be Cultivate , Kodama's Reach Skyshroud Claim , Oracle of Mul Daya , Solemn Simulacrum . You could always use some sacrifice outlets like Greater Gargadon , Momentous Fall , and Ashnod's Altar . Some equipment I like: Lightning Greaves , Tenza, Godo's Maul , and Fireshrieker . Other good voltron stuff would be like Bear Umbra , Wolfir Silverheart , and lots of other equipment. Guttural Response and Veil of Summer are good protection, Krosan Grip is the best artifact/enchantment removal, and Berserk is super good at just deleting someone.
2 months ago
The problem with Guttural Response is not the fact that it is an anti-Blue Counterspell for ; the problem is that it is an anti-Blue Counterspell for as well. That’s where it breaks the colour pie.
2 months ago
Dash Hopes and Mana Tithe were both printed in Planar Chaos - a set that was focused on breaking the color pie (also: Damnation ). RG has no business having a hard counter. That said, I love Guttural Response . Countering a cryptic with that is just ... oh so good lol
2 months ago
Each color has at least one counterspell, and each are conditional within the context of their own flavor for said color.
For example, red hates artifacts so Artifact Blast makes sense in red.
Similarly, Dash Hopes makes sense in black because it allows life to be paid to circumvent the card.
As long as a card mechanically and flavorfully makes sense within it's established color philosophy, it only bends the rules.
Mistcutter Hydra is a giant creature, whom Green loves.
Burnout makes a lot less sense and is another example of cards that break the pie. You shouldn't be able to counter AND draw in red for 2cmc, one being generic.
So it's more so about HOW those cards get things done and much less about THAT they get those things done.