@Dredge4life: Went ahead and moved Ojutai, Soul of Winter down in the change log list thingy. I doubt anyone would argue against the move, since he's inferior to Dragonlord Ojutai, as well as most of the current Tier 3 commanders, so no reason to wait.

@FAMOUSWATERMELON: Thanks! I admit, I have not had a huge amount of experience with Patron of the Moon. I'm not necessarily sold on him staying in Tier 3, but I definitely like having more background. Solid deck.

After playtesting both Purphoros and Uril I can say with almost certainty that aggro decks just aren't competitive in multiplayer EDH and don't belong in tier 2 with its current t5 goldfish requirement.

@Leinahtan

We've discussed Titania before, an optimized build of her is basically a very mean stax deck. Whether that's tier 2 worthy or not, I'm not sure, but she is a very powerful general.

Does anyone know what a competitive Marath list looks like? I've never seen one in action, but Marath himself (herself?) is a pretty hard card to evaluate because it's so versatile. My guess is that none of it's potential archetypes are tier 2-worthy, but I've never seen one in action or even seen a decklist.

Essentially, from what I've seen, it's Ghave with R instead of B.

While Marath costs less the B of Ghave gives you access to tutors that R doesn't let you have.

But hey, take what I say with a grain of salt.

This. The closest thing to a competitive Marath I've seen was essentially a devoted combo deck that won off of rather inefficient things like Mana Echoes + Phyrexian Altar. It wasn't terrible, but it also wasn't, in my opinion, worthy of Tier 2. His toolbox ability to take care of threats may make him resilient enough though. It's hard to say. Sadly, Marath is one of those many commanders that hasn't been solved yet. Or at least a solved list isn't widely known like Derevi or Jarad's.

If Shattergang, Uril (Wut?), Melek, Teneb, Bruna, Krenko, Sedris, Selvala etc are considered Tier 2, then Marath is also a tier 2 deck. He is easily on par with those commanders. In fact, Marath is a high-end tier 2 deck, and works pretty much exactly like Ghave (except costing half as much vs having a weaker color)

He is a card with extreme utility that goes infinite with a large amount of card combinations (Usually something along the lines of a mana generating source like Mana Echoes or Phyrexian Altar as well as a source for additional tokens / counters like Doubling Season.)

It's obviously not worthy of tier 1, but easily tier 2. Let's say you have a 3/3 marath and play Mana Echoes and have 3 mana left. Remove two counters from Marath for 6 colorless mana. Cast Doubling Season for that last colored mana. Bam, infinite power on marath, infinite colorless mana, infinite damage to infinite number of targets and infinite infinite/infinite elementals.

Too far-fetched? Hardly, considering the combo pieces could have been Blade of the Bloodchief, Cathars' Crusade, Tooth and Claw, Primal Vigor, Parallel Lives, Food Chain, Ivy Lane Denizen, Earthcraft, Death's Presence or pretty much ANY card that either makes additional tokens, makes mana out of tokens, or can put +1/+1 counters on Marath.

There are FAR weaker cards to go for in the Tier 2 list than Marath.

Oh and I saw Yisan, the Wanderer Bard is listed as tier FOUR.

He is tier two. He is FAR stronger than many of the contestants on the tier 2 list, yet you have him listed as tier four, not even tier three. He is also probably the MOST consistent commander that exists in the format.

His apparent weakness to removal is solved the first turn after he comes into play, as he fetches Sylvan Safekeeper. After that it quickly goes downhill as he fetches untaps into more untaps into guaranteed Seedborn Muse into more untaps into boardwipe protection into Avenger + Craterhoof or a simple infinite MLD combo.He also straight up gives counterspell / stax decks the middle finger as he ignores all their shit while not casting a single spell from his hand. Weak to boardwipes? From the turn Yisan hit play, he hasn't played a single nonland card from his hand, he's been tutoring with Yisan. His hand is still full of cards.

The weakness is obviously the turn he hits play, and without yisan managing to stick, it quickly falls behind. But in a 4 way match, NEVER letting him stick his commander for one turn can be harder said than done. It's clearly not tier 1 due to its weakness, but easy tier 2.

My only contention with Marath is, as I said, lack of tutors. Which, in this case, is massively apparent when you put Marath and Ghave next to each other.

The situation you listed assumes that you have all of that in hand or that you draw into them. Granted, you have Enlightened Tutor and/or Idyllic Tutor to help you get what you need but Ghave has the likes of Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor and good ol' Demonic Tutor as WELL as Enlightened Tutor and Idyllic Tutor to find it's combo pieces.

Don't get me wrong, Marath is a very strong commander who can do broken things quickly and I believe he should be tier 2 but when you look at the disparity between the two similar cards it becomes apparent which is better.

Ohthenoises: Oh I agree that Ghave is better. Black is a great color in Highlander, but Marath is still a fair bit stronger than many of the cards listed in the tier 2 listing.

There's a LOT of variance in the T2 because of the broad definition of what T2 should mean this has been discussed earlier in the thread.

Indeed. The question isn't so much whether or not Marath is worthy of being in the current Tier 2. It's if he'll be worthy of staying in the trimmed down version (approximately the top 3/5 of the current list).

My issue with Yisan moving up is his colour. He's mono G, which severely restricts his choices for cards to tutor. Not to mention he's fairly slow moving, and without haste you have to wait an entire board rotation just to pay three mana to fetch a one-drop. Compare that to Momir Vig, Simic Visionary and Captain Sisay from the tier two slot, and he's just so inconvenient as a tutor. Not to mention every time he dies you have to start over. I personally think he belongs in tier 4, maybe tier 3, but he's definitely not tier 2 material.

We have already discussed Yisan several times. If you think hes tier 4 or "slow" it is clear you have never played against anything resembling an optimized list. The argument can be made for tier 3 but hes stronger than every other tier 3 commander. Hes only in tier 4 because we can't update the list currently. There are 5 or so mono green generals that can combo win on turn 4 to 6 consistently and Yisan is the best of the bunch. While his color scheme hurts him in relation to momir or sisay the fact hes 3cc is a huge advantage. He can often drop on turn 2 and and sometimes on turn 1. He is hurt by boardwipes but I have seen him drop the turn after and activate his ability 3 times the following turn. Hes reasonably resilient fast and can disrupt opponents since he has alot of artifact and enchantment hate.

I think of Yisan as a mono green pod deck without the sacrificing.

@ Dredge4life: Try taking a look at one of these.

LandDestruction.com's Yisan

My Yisan on Tappedout

Playtest them, preferably either against real opponents, but goldfishing against a second/third deck here on Tappedout will suffice too. It might bring you around after you goldfish on turn 5 three games in a row after tutoring up answers to specific threats a few times.

Hello guyz! So here will be my own point of view on the current tiers! Just before starting, I think we also should rework the tiers description, because we no longer have 6 tiers ;)

Tier one:

The commanders that were there before I took my pause are all there to stay. Really, I have nothing to say about those. I can see that some were moved up: Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge, Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Teferi, Temporal Archmage.

About Jeleva, I think it was a good idea to do so. I think that at this point, serious readers of this list all know one of the best, if not the best, build with her by moxnix (link here for reference). This perfectly fits the tier one, with easy wins even before turn 4, and it can even combo out of nowhere. It really is the optimal build for a commander storm deck. Even if she is more used as a placeholder for the deck and not played that often (similar to Scion of the Ur-Dragon, which is also tier 1 for the Hermit Druid combo deck), she can still be useful to start back a storm chain. She completely deserves her place in tier 1.

About Tasigur, I have to say I never faced a good Tasigur deck (I already played against a semi-budget deck, that was not optimal so I will not count it). I will comment on how I see it and you guyz can argue about my point of view later. I think he is an awesome control general. He has one of the best, if not the best, color identity that grants him access to the best cards in the format. He can return cards from your graveyard to your hands. He is a fodder for infinite mana. He can be really easy to cast. I never played him, but I think it would be the control commander I would go to. I still think he is not the best in tier one, though, but maybe this only is because I never really played him. I would like to see your point of view about this one. I would say he would be between tier 1 and 2...

For Teferi, I only have good things to say. Being mono-blue is a huge advantage, giving him access to the best control color in the format, and the best mono-color of the format. He also has the best planeswalkers to support him (looking at you, Jace, the Mind Sculptor) if you want to go that way. I also have to say he is INSANE with artifacts. Note: I run a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth EDH deck that is all about artifacts and similar to the version of the deck I will advertise here!!! He can easily untap mana rocks to generate insane amounts of mana quite easily. Being in blue also allows him to tutor artifacts really easily, allowing for some really nice combos. I think he deserves his place in tier 1.

Tier two:

I will not comment on all the cards in this tier because it would be way too long. In general, I do agree with the cards in this tier. They all have some good combo potential and can hold themselves really well even against a table full of tier 1 decks. I know there was a lot of discussion about Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, and I would like to say that he is really good where he is. I think he is as strong as Ezuri, Renegade Leader for an elfball deck, because he brings the consistency of tutoring from the command zone. I read that a lot of people thaught he was reliant on Seedborn Muse to run smoothly, but I'd say he doesn't. Yes, that is a good synergy, but the deck would be good even if she was not in. I have built a 1vs1 list some time ago (They see me rollin'... They hatin'...) that would be good for multiplayer if the list was adapted (aading Sol Ring and the likes). The way I go when I play, I usually go for Quirion Ranger/Wirewood Symbiote, Scryb Ranger to untap him a lot and get in the process some good mana dorks, elves has a lot. It is then easy to search for bigger and bigger dudes and swarm the field with elves. I would say he is even closer than Ezuri, Renegade Leader from tier 1... But it is only my opinion. I would still like to discuss this one.

Gotta agree with your assessment, and I do feel Tasigur deserves tier 1 (Although just barely).

Also glad that Yisan got bumped up to the tier he deserves.

I looked through the tier 5 list and saw a few I believe belong in tier 3, or at least tier 4.

The first is Ruhan of the Fomori. I've played against a MLD Ruhan deck, and Ruhan is REALLY good in this role. Turn 3 Ruhan, turn 4 Armageddon / Ravages of War is extremely scary when you're left with a 7/7 threat on the board.

Easy tier 3.

The second is Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer. My personal favorite mono red commander. His strength lies in how ridiculously difficult it is to actually remove the artifacts you want to from the game. Opponent tries to get rid of your Extraplanar Lens? You sacrifice your Solemn Simulacrum instead. Or just a less important artifact, like a Mox Opal or Tormod's Crypt. You know how Mycosynth Lattice is a really risky play? Not in Slobad, you can sacrifice it any time you want, or just make any permanent you want indestructible by sacrificing a land.

This also ties in to how you WIN with the deck. Cards like Jokulhaups and Obliterate clear the board. Except you sacrifice half your artifacts (all the worst ones) and remain with the other half on a completely empty board. Usually you want to delay your MLD a few turns so you can still be left with a solid board once the explosions end, and your opponents to waste the lands they kept in their opening hand, but fast mana rocks into Mycosynth Lattice and Pulverize can destroy the board easily turn 3 (Not that you should). Easiest win is obviously Mycosynth + Vandalblast.

I'd go so far as to say tier 2, but I know that's personal bias. So tier 3 at least. Here's my own playlist So Bad Slobad, although keep in mind it is really unoptimized since MLD is frowned upon in my meta and this is as far as I dare pull the restraints.

The others would be Karona, False God and Cromat. Yes, all 5 color commanders are tier 1 by default, and I know the reason you have them in tier 5 is because they just suck compared to the alternatives, but I feel that they should still be tier 3 at the very least by merit of their OP colors.

Huge thanks Gigi!!!

Now that we've got a nice fresh start, it's a great time to start really delving into Tier 2. Lein and others had some excellent insight on a lot of commanders before the comment sweep. More debate / voting is needed before any final decisions are made though.

I'll briefly list some of the commanders currently up for demotion discussion.

Arcanis the Omnipotent, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Bruna, Light of Alabaster Child of Alara, Ezuri, Claw of Progress, Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Marath, Will of the Wild, Marchesa, the Black Rose, Melek, Izzet Paragon, Memnarch, Omnath, Locus of Mana, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Reaper King, Shattergang Brothers Sydri, Galvanic Genius Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Titania, Protector of Argoth, Uril The Mist Stalker.

These are commanders I and others have shown skepticism on in the past. The question at hand is whether they can truly compete at cutthroat tables with any hope of actually winning. Any insight / opinions / past experiences with the above mentioned commanders is encouraged. If you have any misgiving on other current Tier 2 commanders that should be demoted, please bring them up as well.

@Sleazebag

I could definitely see Ruhan of the Fomori being bumped to tier 4, according to the tier description. He could be really funny at higher levels of play, but the random factor just prevents him from getting any higher, in my opinion.

Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer I could definitely see it being bumped up to tier 3, but not 2. Yes, he can make some good combo plays and protect your resources, but I still think he is weaker than Daretti, Scrap Savant, which is currently tier 2.

I will still wait on some more discussion before applying these changes.

NarejED: On that list, theres quite a few I agree with.

Particularely, I believe Melek, Shattergang, Bruna and Uril don't belong on that list. There are some others I'm suspicious about but I don't really have much experience with them so I won't try to pass myself as an authority on their topic.

I think it could also be smart to approach from the other direction, which ones do you think do NOT deserve to be demoted.

Azusa is amazing ramp, and can quickly lock down the table with strip mine / crucible or play her T&N while others are at 3 mana.

Titania is just disgustingly aggressive. Force everyone to sacrifice their lands while gaining 5 power each time you do so? 10 power the turn you play her, AND she ramps, avoiding half her commander tax?

Similarly, Marchesa allows you to mostly ignore your own stax effects as everything you sacrifice comes back.

Sydri and Marath are extremely good combo enablers.

I believe those at least should stay in the tier 2 list. 5 color commanders are really hard to pinpoint as they all in reality belong to tier 1. I don't know too much about elfball in competetive metas.

As for those I believe don't belong in t2, Uril and Bruna suffer from the HUGE problem of winning through COMBAT damage. That's simply not tier 2 material. First you need to assemble your death machine, THEN you need to kill 3 players. Other decks just need to assemble their death machine, and everything is over.

Shattergang just takes too much mana to be good enough for T2. Melek has the same problem, he costs 6 mana and has no immediate impact on the board. I believe Keranos is better than Melek, usually only needing to be cast once and giving gradual CA while slowly burning down opponents.

@NarejED

I will only comment on commanders I have faced before, so that my opinion will be valid.

Arcanis the Omnipotent is meh. Often have I seen a player use him instead of Azami, Lady of Scrolls just not to be a target from the begining of the game. He was winning when he was able to draw into Azami and cast her... Also, he costs a lot of mana, which can be difficult to obtain fast in mono-blue... You have to play a lot of mana rocks to accelerate fast in this color, and there would be far better choices if you go that way. I could see him go down to tier 3.

Azusa, Lost but Seeking is an amazing card. I mean, you play green, with a lot of ramp and land search. You will thin your deck a lot, getting at the same time much better draws. You will be able to get some big creatures really fast. There also is the Crucible of Worlds + Strip Mine lock to get rid of problematic lands quite easily. It's mono-green, so it's only problem is creature removal, but I'd say she is one of the best mono-green commanders and deserves her place in tier 2.

Ezuri, Claw of Progress seemed really good when he was spoiled, but up to now, I have never seen an optimized version of this deck. The best I faced was an infect build... But it was quite slow. It can only pump one creature a turn :/ There are still some nice combos available to it, such as Sage of Hours, but it is quite easy to disrupt, you just need to remove the good creature at the right moment. I don't think it is as powerful as Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, I could see him down to tier 3.

Memnarch would be in between 2 and 3, but I'd say it is more of a 3. He is quite slow to get running, even if once he is online it is a real pain in the ass for your opponents. Again, you need to run a lot of mana rocks to get it going, but it also requires blue mana to activate it's abilities, so even if you get the infinite colorless out of Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth , you need some colored sources also, so no infinity... I'd definitely say tier 3, even if strong tier 3.

Omnath, Locus of Mana playstyle is similar to Asuza, but I think he is more fragile. If you can get rid of Omnath, generally the rest of the deck is quite easy to deal with. They won't be able to keep the mana. Even if there are a lot of ways to protect him, it is mono-green so it cannot really answer those... I'd say down to tier 3.

Melek and Uril still feel tier two to me. Melek can go off the turn after he's cast pretty consistently and Uril is nearly impossible to interact with and gets out of hand extremely quickly. Bruna is similarly insane but seems a turn too slow. I could see her being tier 3 but my experience against her is limited.

As for other changes, moving up Ruhan and Slobad seem reasonable to me. I never thought Cromat was tier 5 garbage, but Karona is still awful enough to stay there.