awesomeguy37, it's up!

Good article! I want to see GP Milan to decide on banning Jeskai Ascendancy, but I can understand you wanting the ban. I also love combo decks...

I say it all the time: don't canonize mtgtop8.com. At the very least, don't use their percentages like they are exactly correct. Discussing general trends would be less likely to misrepresent facts and easier to comprehend. I think that looking at GP metagames and MTGO daily results from the Wizards websites would provide somewhat more comprehensive sources of information.

Nevertheless, this is a reasonable piece. No mention of Scapeshift, which is probably the best deck in the format at the moment, is something that needs to be corrected. The deck has access to the best sideboard cards (many of you Modern aficionados may notice that Temur gets a lot of the most powerful options in terms of hate cards), a robust combo kill and a delve spell to top it off.

Personally, I'm on Scapeshift. It's incredibly fun to play. I agree that the Jeskai Ascendancy deck needs to be shot down fast, not necessarily because it's too good but because the format shouldn't (by definition) have a consistent T3 combo deck.

As far as Delver goes, I don't think Treasure Cruise is the main problem. Sure, it nets them three cards for one mana much of the time, but often they have to pay a reasonable amount of life through fetches to access the Recall power. The biggest problems with Delver (I feel) are Monastery Swiftspear and (especially) Young Pyromancer.

Monastery Swiftspear is incredibly annoying, and blatantly overpowered. Look at it compared to Raging Goblin or even the more recent (and oppressive) Goblin Guide. Swiftspear has the toughness to avoid trading with etb utility creatures or mana dorks, and more often than not it actually has more power than Guide, with nothing that even hints at a drawback. What was R&D thinking?

However, that pales in comparison to the crushing power of Young Pyromancer. Getting a free creature for every. fucking. spell. is utter ridiculousness. Pyromancer needs to be banned. He simply generates too much card advantage for too little mana. Without him, the deck is a weirder, more resilient Kiln Fiend sort of thing. With him, it can play too many angles. Aggro, control, burn, whatever the hell its wielder feels like. He also allows Delver to run an insane number of cheap spells, filling the graveyard for Treasure Cruise and heightening the chances of flipping Delver himself. Without him, the deck would actually be required to run some more threats instead of just cantrips and removal willy-nilly. Pyomancer is the problem; Pyromancer needs to be nixed.

I'm with GlistenerAgent on that MTGTop8 isn't the source. Take a look at TCGPlayer and Star City Games events. That is a better representation of the meta, as Top8 also shows MTGO, which is a different animal altogether.

SteelNinja, your comment seems out of place, in that Young Pyromancer is an issue. There are so may answers, ala Bile Blight, Pyroclasm, etc. that your claim is etremely invalid. Cruise was the enabler that Delver needed to be an archetype again. And that's a healthy thing for the Modern meta. Swiftspear is by far a worse Goblin Guide, really only truly shining in a tempo shell, ille est Delver.

Just because we are seeing a new Tier One archetype is by no means reason to call for bans on Treasure Cruise. For real people need to quit on that ish. Delver is here to compete but by no means is dominating the format. Scapeshift won a Modern event not long ago...

As far as Jeskai Ascendancy combo decks are concerned, really? We're freaking out over this? Doesn't Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Mindbreak Trap, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Eidolon of Rhetoric, et al exist? And has the deck dominated Top 8 or won tournaments? If so, please properly link sources.

I don't like playing against scapeshift or tron much, but I have no issues with Treasure Cruise or UR Delver decks, and don't find ascendancy combo decks any worse than dedicated storm decks.

Now mind you, I hate storm and am quite happy the current meta had eradicated it. For that reason alone I'd be happy to not see any bannings. I'm also quite happy to play against UR Delver with BW Tokens, so I hope the current meta continues, since it's rare (in my area) to see scapeshift decks in paper.

As a side note, storm frequently went off against me on turns 2 and 3, so I don't think it's legit at all to call out only ascendancy for having "too fast a clock." And I'd rather play against it than storm, anyway.

aeonstoremyliver, you can say that about anything. There are multiple answers to everything. You need to stop Spell Pierce? Vexing Shusher, Dispel, or even Defense Grid have got your back. Birthing Pod being annoying? Smelt, Stony Silence, and Phyrexian Revoker are all valid options. The problem with Young Pyromancer is that unless you run upwards of six or eight sweepers, it will still make a significant impact by the time you kill it. Delver of Secrets  ^Flip offers much less potential damage unchecked, and can be dealt with easily. In addition, there is a greater aspect of luck, barring Monastery Swiftspear is subject to spot removal, but it will almost always get in at least 4 damage by that time. Overall Delver is too difficult to beat without specifically designing against it, and this should never be the case. It must be weakened. Pyromancer and Swiftspear is at the heart of this problem. Also, your statement that Swiftspear is usually bad, except in Delver, is pointless. I wasn't complaining it was too good in UW Tron. And in Delver, it's downright overpowered. Anger of the Gods does you no good when they can just cast Lightning Bolt and Thought Scour to make it survive, while all of your creatures die.

*there is a greater aspect of luck, barring Serum Visions. blah blah blah

Also, about Ascendancy, the problem is that if it goes off, it's incredibly boring and long, and you can't just say "combo, I win" like you can with Splinter Twin since it has that slim chance of fizzling. Eggs wasn't broken up because it was too good, it was because it clogged up the game.

Personally, didn't like the article just because it left out so much. "Let's talk about the modern meta game. And by that, I mean Delver's a thing now. And by that I mean ban treasure cruise. Here's some sideboard cards. What do you guys think?" I don't think that that should be an acceptable article, but hey, that's just me.

In terms of discussing the modern meta, I say let Delvers Delve if not for flavor reasons alone. Scapeshift is scary, Pod still finds creatures - some of which are now siege rhino and not Melira, and burn deals direct damage to target player. Seems fairly straightforward. I think that Modern's just as healthy now than it has been in quite some time. There isn't a single deck that's punishing every tournament, Any deck can do well now. Heck, I still think that ChiefBell is recovering from finding that treefolk list.

I'm calling for no bannings or unbannings, because i'll play with this current set of modern cards for as long as it's here. I really like this format. And with the natural shifts that happen over time (Note the lack of concern here for the banning of Glittering Wish), people will adjust, new decks will come out of the woodworks, and modern will continue to be the best format.

@SteelNinja: U/R delver is not that good. Sure it is strong, but they only run 10-12 actual threats, none of which are particularly tough to deal with. Sure swiftspear can get big, but it doesn't stay big. And Young Pyromancer is definitely powerful, but to call it overpowered is a bit ridiculous. there are plenty of solid 2 drops out there. he isn't the first, and he wont be the last. Your assessment of him is rather ridiculous. its like saying Scapeshift is too powerful in a temur deck that has Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle. yeah, it is strong, but it most definitely isn't overpowered. Id be surprised if wizards banned any of te red creatures you dislike so much. none of them are that oppressive. I also don't think Treasure Cruise should be banned. the format isn't a "play it or lose" format. Pod, Junk, scapeshift, g/r tron, jund, etc all don't need it and are decently successful.

@ThatBlueMage what could I do to make it better?

Well, at my LGS U/R Delver is by far the most played deck at the moment and people are starting to complain that it's getting boring having to play against the very same deck over and over again. It almost never comes out at 1st place though, the last 3 week's modern events at my LGS (we have only 1 modern event every week) were won by Merfolk, Affinity and an interesting mono-white DnT build. The popularity of U/R Delver has affected the main- and sideboards of many decks in my meta though. For example I am seeing Chalice of the Void being played maindeck much more and Anger of the Gods has found its way into more sideboards now. And any deck that has access to white mana usually has a few copies of cards like Burrenton Forge-Tender or Kor Firewalker in the side or even main.

About Treasure Cruise, I don't see the card being banned because of U/R Delver. The current hype about this card and the fact that many/most decks are splashing blue to be able to play it reminds me a bit of our 1-mana-planeswalker Deathrite Shaman. As far as I can remember Shaman wasn't banned because of one particular archetype, but simply because almost every deck would splash for it because it was just so good.

I can imagine the Jeskai Ascendancy combo deck getting weakened by a ban in the near future because of 2 things: It offers a pretty consistent turn 3 kill and the combo-kill does take long to execute, so for the opponent it feels a bit like the old eggs archetype once Jeskai Ascendancy goes off.

I think Delver is just popular at the moment because a number of key pieces were printed recently, the deck as a whole isn't very expensive, and it doesn't require too much experience to play decently.

If new players want to try playing Modern, are they going to pick Delver of Secrets  ^Flip, or Birthing Pod? It's as simple as asking which deck is the easiest to build and play. Sure there might be decks that are cheaper, or produce better results, or that simply turn sideways. Delver hits a sweet spot with the combination of a low price tag, decent showings, and a little bit of clever play.

There's nothing wrong with looking at mtgtop8 for popularity but it is iffy to use as a judge of competitiveness because many people agree that mtgo seems to be slightly less competitive and representative than other events. Whenever I quote mtgtop8 I tend to do it both including and then excluding mtgo or at the very least make some references to larger events.

I like the stats you did regarding the average placing of delver versus affinity but think that more complicated maths needs to be performed to weight certain factors. Ie. 20 first place finishes in a grand prix is worth more than 20 first place on mtgo, in my opinion. Therefore I would pursue a more complicated algorithm when making this comparison.

This is a decent article about aggro in modern. It's great at discussing aggro but fails to address junk, pod, scapeshift and others in any great detail. But that's fine - this is just focused.

I dislike the hyperbole from many people. Card x is doing well - ban it. Card y has created a new archetype - ban it. It's really quite dull. The format moves forward whether or not you want it to. I think a lot of it comes from people who don't know how to answer the archetype. Delver and treasure cruise have been around for a while now and it's been clearly demonstrated that decks not running TC can beat those that do. I still remember a comment from somebody a while back saying 'you play TC or you lose'. Lol. Whether or not ascendancy is the same is something no one knows. The answer will become clearer in time.

Um, isn't Soul Sisters considered more of an aggro archetype? It is definitely not control...

@JakeHarlow that is a great point actually, it is certainly aggro not control...

Jeskai Ascendancy won't be banned. If anything would be banned, it would be Glittering Wish. It only sees play in Ascendancy Combo, and it is the reason why it is so consistent.

But the new Fatestitcher combo is a bit more popular and just as problematic @lemmingllama and they don't run Glittering Wish.

@awesomeguy37 Oh cool, I haven't looked at the decklists lately, although I knew they replaced some dorks with Fatestitcher. Still, wouldn't that decrease the consistency just to increase the speed of the deck?

I like Sunlance to go along path in decks without access to lightning Bolt.

No. It's decreased the speed in favour of consistency. Green is gone altogether and more counterspells are used.

@lemmingllama Go check out the lists from Worlds. The new deck actually loses some speed by removing green, but gains way more consistency and inevitability by playing a controlling route with Dig Through Time until it feels like comboing off. Plus, it has the potential to combo off at instant speed now, say in response to an Abrupt Decay.

As someone who loves playing rogue decks, I think the meta is very healthy atm. Deathrite Shaman was banned simply because it shut off or made winning very difficult for so many other archtypes that use the GY. The only question I have is weather 8-rack or mill decks have a chance against Treasure Cruise? I only think cruise will get banned if it completely shuts off other archtypes, which doesn't look like the case right now with the exception of 8-rack styled decks.

No, that's not why DRS was banned. He's very ineffective against GY stuff due to the fact that he has to tap to exile. I mean, it's better than nothing but it's not enough to matter against most things.

The real reason DRS was banned because it did too much for a one drop - allowing a T2 liliana to be played and then winning the game with its pinging ability. It's too much to be able to do for such little investment.

Cards that hate on other strategies aren't banned. If they were the leylines would be loooong gone by now.

@ ChiefBell - I believe DRS was banned for both of our reasons. True, hate cards in general aren't banned, but DRS was splashed for in so many decks at the time that people just stopped playing certain archtypes that were bad against what DRS could do.

"Different flavors of black-green decks have recently been among the best-performing decks in Modern. These decks play many very efficient ways to trade cards one for one with their opponents, such as Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Abrupt Decay. Strong mana acceleration helps these decks trade one for one efficiently enough that they can keep up with the other decks in a large format such as Modern, but normally playing mana acceleration comes at the cost of playing cards that are less powerful in the late game. Deathrite Shaman, however, is powerful at all stages of the game. Having a strong attrition-based deck as a large portion of the metagame makes it difficult for decks that are based on synergies between cards instead of individually powerful cards. We believe that removing Deathrite Shaman from the format will leave more room for future innovation."

Nothing to do with graveyard hate and stuff, just because it was generally too strong at all stages of the game. Like I said - ramp in early game, ping to death later.

"....makes it difficult for decks that are based on synergies between cards instead of individually powerful cards." I think both of our points are valid. I'm not disagreeing with you dude, just pointing out the thinking of the normal player at the time. The original point is that Treasure Cruise still isn't nearly as abusive as DRS, so I don't think it will get the banhammer.

@aeonstoremyliver: It has dominated tournaments. Point in case Worlds, where 4 lists turned up and 3 of those were in the top 4. When Josh Utter-Leyton on Ascendancy played Sam Black on Pod, Josh was able to combo with an Abrupt Decay on the stack. The deck can often go off at instant speed if needed. Additionally, it is important to note that during this game, while Josh was comboing, Black spent the turn essentially writing down his opponents decklist. This is another reason to ban Ascendancy: it causes long turns that Wizards generally discourages.

@GeminiSpartanX: You can't say "It isn't quite as good as potentially the best creature in Modern ever, so it's OK". DRS is banned for a reason, that reason being that it is just way too good for Modern. Even if Treasure Cruise is not quite as dominant as DRS, it is still ridiculously powerful. Compare it to the banned Ancestral Vision. Cruise is just better than Vision. In fact, Josh Utter-Leyton said in a CFB video that Treasure Cruise is just better than any card on the banlist. Those cards include Deathrite, Visions, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. A high-level competitive player is telling us that this card is better than Jace. For me, that is more than enough evidence that it needs to go.

I mean, last time I checked, Josh utter-leyton doesn't work at wizards, so he has no real influence on the decision, so i'm not 100% sure why his opinion matters?

@ThatBlueMage Nice.

About bannings: I think that Jeskai Ascendancy at the very least will be banned, no question whatsoever. Treasure Cruise in my mind should also be banned, but I'm a lot less worried about that card than Ascendancy. Ascendancy is straight up broken, while Cruise is just a very powerful card that doesn't piss off every single person playing against it.

Ascendancy did well in one tournament one time. It was also a tournament with only 24 players so it was LIKELY to do well. It was also a tournament where multiple people played the deck - again it was LIKELY to do well. It was also a tournament under different conditions to usual which encouraged quirky play - and is therefore not representative of most other high level play.

Treasure cruise running decks aren't smashing those decks that don't run it. In fact, for all the people playing delver it hasn't done better than things like pod or affinity. A large sample of people playing a deck and doing no better than a small sample on average suggests it's really not that good.

Why is everyone so awful at weighing up evidence.

He doesn't need to work at Wizards to have a significant opinion. If that logic were valid, this entire thread would be useless because no matter if they are right or wrong, people on T|O generally don't work for Wizards. His opinion is significant because he is a very high level player who is more likely than at least 99.9% of people to know which cards are powerful.

@ Programmer_112 - Maybe it's just me, but in a discussion such as this one I think I can voice my opinion. (see post 28) If you compare Cruise to Ancestral Vision side-by-side, it looks like visions is the worse card, and you're likely correct. It would take more to abuse Vision in a deck than Cruise. The thing is, both can't be legal at the same time, otherwise there would be decks running all 8 of them, drawing 3 cards every other turn. Cruise is a powerful cards, but it's not a broken card. Heck, I've been playing instant-speed treasure cruise in my mill deck for a few years and it hasn't been banned yet (Visions of Beyond).

Also, just because you're skilled at the game doesn't mean that your opinion is law/doctrine/fact. Pro players have their opinion, but they're just people like the rest of us. Some of them are actually outright jerks in real life. There are many people on this site that can give informed opinions based off their own experience, not to mention that there are a number of other professional players who don't think Cruise is as banworthy as other cards.

Programmer_112

Oh, you're under the impression that this thread has any shred of real meaning outside of 100% speculation. My bad. Carry on your useful conversation.

@ChiefBell Evidence and results aren't the only things that determine whether or not a deck is good. Jeskai Ascendancy (the new version) is just a straight-up powerful deck.

@Programmer_112 I believe other people are entitled to their opinion.

I don't see how anything except how the deck performs (ie. the results it produces) determines it's power. I don't get it?

GlistenerAgent - I think it should be pointed out that powerful does not necessarily equal good. U/R Storm is a powerful deck, but it's not as good because it lacks consistency. Birthing Pod on the other hand is a powerful AND consistent deck, which makes it good.

@ChiefBell What I'm saying is that just because the deck hasn't been out long enough to put up serious results doesn't mean it's not good.

@JWiley129 I absolutely agree. Jeskai Ascendancy is also incredibly consistent. Four Dig Through Time can do that to a deck. :)

Oh, of course. I totally agree. Only time can tell that one. Like - I wouldn't make a judgment without 3 or 4 or 5 sets of results. I would be hesitant to say it's good or bad. Too early to tell.

It's so tiring to show up to events where people complain that playing against the mirror is not fun and boring.

Here's an idea. Play a different deck, perhaps one of the many different effective decks in the format (yes, many) and then it won't be an issue.

The problem arises from people wanting to play a deck that wins consistently but not wanting others to play the same deck. Grow up kiddies, play the deck you want. Splash for good cards if you want. Or don't. But getting your shorts in a knot over a change in a format IS GOING TO HAPPEN. The nature of this game is frustration and to always be in flux, it's expensive, it's skill testing and it's fun. None without the other

I am currently working on a U/R deck that uses Delver of Secrets  ^Flip, but its does not use Treasure Cruise. Instead it is based on the Theros standard Spellheart Chimera deck, which was one of my favorites, as a catalyst. It's still tempo though. The deck may end up being not that great, but the it should end up being one of my favorite decks, along with my other two modern decks.

If anything there's more Siege Rhinos topping modern recently than delve decks. Does this mean we should ban Siege Rhino? If Siege Rhino made every aggro or midrange deck not playing him in the format terrible and if it was a card that gave control and combo decks a nightmare, then I would say yes, but the reality is Siege Rhino doesn't do those things. It's a 4 drop tri-color midrange creature played in no more two decks that's a proactive response to the rise in burn and burn-based tempo decks.

Although I would make some banlist adjustments myself (it's certainly not perfect), I can't agree with the statement "modern in unbalanced" right now. 3 months ago when Birthing Pod is the best deck in modern the majority of people wouldn't call Modern unbalanced despite the power of the high performance decks (a few did actually, but most didn't), and for a long time blue has been searching for a viable card advantage engine. If anything it's the variety of cheap cantrips (and burn) available that make Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time so good, do we ban Serum Visions and Lightning Bolt? Of course not, because control would lose all consistency and creatures would become too dominant.

When delve decks start putting up overwhelming top 8 percentages like Deathrite Shaman jund did, hell if tribal treefolk was the deck that starts dominating the top 8 of every GP, then ban considerations should be seriously taken into effect. While everyone has their idea of the perfect modern, and these new cards are undeniably powerful, possibly the best in modern, it doesn't mean they're in the best deck (No they are NOT the same: Sphinx's Revelation was the best card in standard and control wasn't the best deck, it was what allowed the deck to be played).

Tl;dr even if there's a slew of new decks rampaging modern it doesn't mean it's not balanced, only when tournament results becomes overly saturated is the format unhealthy.

TristanTaylorsVoice The main reason why Siege Rhino has become so popular is that it shuts down Burn a lot and it takes Delver decks two spells to kill it if they don't counter it or they Remand it and you just play it next turn. Both of those decks run 3x or 4x Treasure Cruise.

I agree Siege Rhino is a meta call and that burn and delver are high tier. On the same token, maindeck Anger of the Gods in Jund and Twisted Image in Twin are meta calls. The meta is adapting to new decks, but I would hardly call swapping Ranger of Eos for rhinos in pod or running junk instead of jund (where Path and Lingering Souls are already legitimate cards) is considered deck warping, especially since players opted for junk before jund pre-khans anyway.

I'm not seeing the problem. Ok just kidding but basically what other people said. if everyone decides to run the acendancy in your meta just sideboard against it like anyother specific deck like tron. Same with Treasure Cruise if drawing 3 cards is somehow going to win them the game there's numerous options to exile graveyards.

Perhaps a separate thread or discussion for an idealized banlist would be in everyone's best interests.

Here's my two cents on this:1. I think the article could have been a little bit more detailed on all of the popular decks, but for a first article I would say that it is pretty ok.2. On the subject of banning Treasure Cruise, I think that the card itself isn't really that worthy of the ban list. Granted it's power level is high, I feel like it really doesn't wreck the format as most would say, I just feel like it is just another great card released into the modern pool. Jeskai Ascendancy I think is just a little overpowered due to the fact that it has a consistent turn 3 win. The last to have very consistent turn 3 wins was "Second Sunrise' which was banned, granted it was most likely banned due to long drug out games, it doesn't differ too much in play considering that without the scoop from the opponent, the game is going to last a VERY LONG TIME. 3. Scapeshift is..... very powerful, but not unbeatable. I can count many games where I just won the race, and timed out counters to win. I think Scapeshift is a deck to beat, but at the same time it is fair. 4. Possible banning of Birthing Pod. Personally, I like Pod. It's the swiss army deck of the meta, plays fair, isn't too tricky to beat. From the discussions I've had, the only reason someone might ban Pod is just to open up the meta a little bit more. Even though Pod doesn't have as many pilots as U/R Delver it is still very overplayed. Even though I DO NOT think Pod should be banned, I think we should encourage more people to build original decks instead of net decking so frequently. 5. This is more a continuation of the UR Delver discussion, but relates to number 4. I think that a possible banning of the named cards could very possibly happen do to the sheer numbers of people playing that specific deck. I think pieces might be banned just to open up the meta again, to encourage creativity.

@Wargod7175 Looks like Birthing Pod and Treasure Cruise both got banned in one fell swoop. I guess a lot of this article is kinda gone now.

@manofperson I know, right... THis article has now been made pretty redundant.