Why is Untapping Lands a Blue Ability, Rather than a Green One?
General forum
Posted on Sept. 1, 2024, 10:21 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
In this post, Mark Rosewater stated that untapping lands is primarily a blue ability, but employees of WotC have repeatedly stated that green has the strongest emphasis on lands out of all the colors, so I personally feel that untapping lands should be a green ability, especially since blue is adept at tapping permanents and untapping artifacts.
What does everyone else say about this? Why is untapping lands primarily a blue ability, when green has the greatest emphasis on lands, among the colors?
wallisface says... #3
The actual number of green cards that untap lands is extremely tiny - and a large portion of those cards are extremely old.
Blues ability to untap a permanent is comparably vast, and by volume-alone dwarfs anything green is doing in that space.
Yes green has the strongest emphasis on lands, but I don’t think that should correlate to meaning green is the best at every aspect of land-interaction.
We also don’t know where the game is headed - but Rosewater does, and has a lot of say/power in that regard. His answer might be eluding to a further-dropoff of green land-untap in the future, while blue maintains its untap abilities.
September 1, 2024 11:03 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #4
I grew up in the Twiddle era of magic, so I have a bias, but I always thought of blue as the manipulative color rather than the untap color. It isn’t so much land untapping as it is some manner of rewinding time or swapping reality phases or things like that. Green can untap lands if it wants, but blue should be untapping permanents.
September 2, 2024 9:32 a.m.
wallisface Which extremely old cards are you looking at? For mono-green cards with the line "Untap target land", seven out of twelve have the 2015 frame for their first printing. For "Untap all lands", there's five, with all having at least the Modern frame and two having the 2015 frame for their first print.
For "untap all permanents", the only mono-color card is Seedborn Muse. The only mono-blue card with "untap all lands" is Reset
, by far the oldest card.
There are eighteen mono-blue cards with "untap target permanent", and only two of them have the 2015 frame. The only mono-blue card with "untap target land" is Oboro Breezecaller.
I'll grant that the number of mono-green cards with "untap target land" is smaller than the number of mono-blue cards with "untap target permanent", but is 12 extremely tiny compared to 18's comparative vastness? And the bulk of those blue cards are older than the bulk of the green cards.
I'll acknowledge that I didn't look at multicolor cards, miscellaneous stuff like Arbor Elf, etc., but I think comparing pure land untapping ability between the colors is sufficient to demonstrate their relative presence. So unless I missed something else in my admittedly quick and simple search, I'm going to stand by my statement. Untapping lands is primary in green, and untapping permanents as a whole is primary in blue. If anything, green land untapping is building up, rather than falling off in recent years.
September 2, 2024 4:23 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #6
My mind first went to Ley Druid, who we used to pair with Instill Energy for SUPER value ;p Ahhh memories
September 2, 2024 7:11 p.m.
wallisface says... #7
legendofa the extremely old cards i’m seeing are stuff like Argothian Elder, Awakening, Early Harvest, Earthcraft, Elder Druid, Juniper Order Druid, and Nature's Chosen.
From what i’m seeing, the general trend is that this effect used to be quite prominent in green but something that’s slowly being phased out/down for green over time.
September 2, 2024 9:22 p.m.
wallisface I'm still going to contest that. Scryfall search comes up with 45 mono-green cards with the words "untap" and "land". Ignoring stuff like Blizzard and Choke, there are nine cards in that group with ye olde bordere that untap lands, seven with the Modern border, and fourteen with the 2015 border, skipping those whose primary purpose is to turn lands into creatures like Wakeroot Elemental. Two of them are legal in Standard, and thirteen--about a third of the total, and more than ye olde bordere--are legal in Pioneer. I'm not seeing the dropoff for land untapping in green.
Ye Olde Bordere, "untap" + "land": Ley Druid, Elder Druid, Juniper Order Druid, Nature's Chosen, Early Harvest, Earthcraft, Awakening, Argothian Elder, Krosan Restorer. total 9
Modern Border, "untap" + "land": Rude Awakening, Nature's Will, Stone-Seeder Hierophant, Magus of the Candelabra, Garruk Wildspeaker, Bear Umbra, Urban Burgeoning, Voyaging Satyr. total 8
2015 Border, "untap" + "land": Nissa, Worldwaker, Initiate's Companion, Hope Tender, Nissa, Genesis Mage, Blossom Dryad, Ley Weaver, Wilderness Reclamation, Sculptor of Winter, Saryth, the Viper's Fang, Likeness of the Seeker Flip, Civic Gardener, Rustvine Cultivator, Portent Tracker, Innocuous Researcher. total 14
Ye Olde Bordere, "untap" + "permanent": Emerald Charm, Seedborn Muse. total 2
Modern Border, "untap" + "permanent": none.
2015 Border, "untap" + "permanent": Cacophodon, Rime Tender, Jorn, God of Winter Flip. total 3
Ye Olde Bordere, "untap" + "Forest": Llanowar Druid. total 1
Modern Border, "untap" + "Forest": Patron of the Orochi, Woodland Guidance, Arbor Elf. total 3
2015 Border, "untap" + "Forest": none.
So there's 39 green cards that can untap lands in some capacity, with 34 of those being more or less land-specific. Again, these counts ignore cards that untap lands by turning lands into creatures, focusing only on those whose main function is the untap. It also ignores Un-cards.
Analysis of blue to follow.
September 3, 2024 1:07 a.m.
Slight error on the green analysis that doesn't significantly change results, but Nissa, Worldwaker belongs in the "untap" + "Forest" section.
September 3, 2024 1:10 a.m.
wallisface says... #10
legendofa I have an issue with you contesting my statement of "a large portion of those cards are extremely old" and then deciding yourself what the goalposts should be for my own statement. I never said that only old-bordered cards are old... the current "new" border has still been in use for a ridiculous quantity of time, and the colour pie has shifted numerous times since its creation. For me, anything that was printed 10+ years ago, fits into the "extremely old" category... so if you're going to pull me-up on what's old-or-new, that is the yardstick i'm measuring.
Now, ordering cards by how old they actually are (instead of arbitrary card-frames) yields the following (using only the cards you've already listed):
1993 (31 years ago): Ley Druid
1995 (29 years ago): Juniper Order Druid
1996 (28 years ago): Nature's Chosen, Emerald Charm
1997 (27 years ago): Elder Druid, Earthcraft, Llanowar Druid
1998 (26 years ago): Awakening, Argothian Elder
1999 (25 years ago): Early Harvest
2002 (22 years ago): Krosan Restorer
2004 (20 years ago): Rude Awakening, Nature's Will
2005 (19 years ago): Stone-Seeder Hierophant, Seedborn Muse, Patron of the Orochi
2006 (18 years ago): Magus of the Candelabra
2007 (17 years ago): Woodland Guidance
2009 (15 years ago): Garruk Wildspeaker
2010 (14 years ago): Bear Umbra
2012 (12 years ago): Arbor Elf, Urban Burgeoning
2013 (11 years ago): Voyaging Satyr
2014 (10 years ago): Nissa, Worldwaker
2017 (7 years ago): Initiate's Companion, Hope Tender, Nissa, Genesis Mage, Blossom Dryad
2018 (6 years ago): Ley Weaver, Cacophodon
2019 (5 years ago): Wilderness Reclamation, Rime Tender
2021 (3 years ago): Sculptor of Winter, Saryth, the Viper's Fang, Jorn, God of Winter Flip
2022 (2 years ago): Likeness of the Seeker Flip, Civic Gardener
2023 (last year): Rustvine Cultivator, Portent Tracker
2024 (this year): Innocuous Researcher
Using the above data, the below rant is in defense of my claim "From what i’m seeing, the general trend is that this effect used to be quite prominent in green but something that’s slowly being phased out/down for green over time", which may have been the other thing you were contesting??
Now, at face value this paints a picture that indicates an-eb-and-flow of constant printings of green-land-untap effects, perhaps even slightly favoring those printings in the more recent years. HOWEVER - this does not take into account the actual percentage of cards printed in any given year.
For example, in 1996 2 cards exist in our category, BUT only 468 new cards were printed that year. 2022 also has 2 cards in our category printed, but also had 2004 new cards printed into it, meaning those 2 cards represented a significantly lower percentage of what green represented that year.
With Wotc printing an increasingly large quantity of cards every year, this effect has been getting an increasingly lower-percentage-share of cards given to it. The one anomaly I see is 2017, where 4 cards were printed in a year that made 861 new cards, making it about on-par with our beforementioned 1996 example.
September 3, 2024 1:54 a.m. Edited.
wallisface says... #11
Just to try and illustrate my point a bit more clearly, from the years we have above i've calculated the percentage of our green cards that let us untap a land. We can see a downward trend:
- 1993: 0.27%
- 1995: 0.21%
- 1996: 0.42%
- 1997: 0.38%
- 1998: 0.28%
- 1999: 0.13%
- 2002: 0.16%
- 2004: 0.32%
- 2005: 0.46%
- 2006: 0.13%
- 2007: 0.16%
- 2009: 0.16%
- 2010: 0.14%
- 2012: 0.27%
- 2013: 0.13%
- 2014: 0.12%
- 2017: 0.46% (the anomaly year mentioned before)
- 2018: 0.19%
- 2019: 0.16%
- 2021: 0.16%
- 2022: 0.09%
- 2023: 0.10%
I do get that maybe this isn't how you want to read information, but this feels to me like the fairest way to interpret card trends. We're welcome to use different data-analytics methods to draw our conclusions, but it's not fair to then claim someone else is incorrect just because their own analytic methods don't line up to yours.
September 3, 2024 2:06 a.m.
In blue, the Urza's Block hugely skew land untapping, and that block is widely considered to be an overpowered mistake, especially for blue. Urza's Saga and Urza's Legacy alone have ten cards that allow land-specific untapping, more than half of all the blue cards that allow untapping lands without untapping all permanents. They'll be included for the sake of completion, but I wouldn't take them as any sort of precedent. Pioneer legality is just five cards, with one of them being Standard-legal. Blue is the undisputed king of untapping permanents in general, but doesn't have any special focus on lands.
Ye Olde Bordere, "untap" + "land": Twiddle, Reset, Infuse, Jolt, Twitch, Mind Over Matter, Great Whale, Peregrine Drake, Rewind, Time Spiral, Turnabout, Cloud of Faeries, Frantic Search, Palinchron, Snap, Treachery, Trickster Mage. total 16
Modern Border, "untap" + "land": Oboro Breezecaller. total 1
2015 Border, "untap" + "land": Pore Over the Pages, Unwind, Finale of Revelation, Kelpie Guide. total 3
Ye Olde Bordere, "untap" + "permanent": Telekinetic Bonds. total 1
Modern Border, "untap" + "permanent": Dream's Grip, Psychic Puppetry, Toils of Night and Day, Tidewater Minion, Rimewind Taskmage, Coral Trickster, Merrow Reejerey, Pestermite, Fatestitcher, Merfolk Skyscout, Reality Spasm, Deceiver Exarch, Captain of the Mists, Ghostly Touch, Hidden Strings, Curse of Inertia, Tidal Force. total 17
2015 Border, "untap" + "permanent": Teferi, Temporal Archmage, Vizier of Tumbling Sands, Clever Conjurer, Nimbleclaw Adept, Ioreth of the Healing House, Forensic Researcher. total 6
Ye Olde Bordere, "untap" + "Island": none.
Modern Border, "untap" + "Island": none.
2015 Border, "untap" + "Island": none.
There's 44 mono-blue cards that can untap lands in some capacity, with 20 of them being more specific than untapping permanents in general. If Urza's Block is taken out, then there are 34 blue cards that untap lands, with just nine of them having any sort of restriction.
So in final summary, I see green land untapping increasing in recent years, and blue permanent untapping actually falling off slightly. There were 18 blue untap cards in the 12 years of the modern border, and nine cards so far in the nine years of the 2015 border. Discounting Urza's Block, there are slightly more green cards that can untap lands than blue cards, and many more green cards that untap lands than blue cards printed in the last ten years.
If I missed anything in this breakdown, please let me know. But I think the cards are there to support my initial position. Both green and blue are primary in untapping lands, if lands are counted as permanents, and blue is secondary in untapping lands specifically. Mark Rosewater's answer is is at best incomplete and missing nuance, and at worst totally wrong.
Keeping the above because it took me a long time write and I don't want to undo the effort.
In response to wallisface, percentage of cards with a given effect doesn't matter to primacy of color.
-
Primary – This is the color (or colors) the ability is seen in most. That means it shows up in the highest volume and usually at the lowest rarity that the type of effects get used at. The primary color will almost always get this effect in a set if it's an ability we do every set. It also tends to be the color that most often pushes the power level, if it's an effect we push the power level on. There's a wide range on what primary means, because different types of effects exist at different levels. A card secondary in flying can show up way more than a card primary in taking extra turns, for instance, because we have so many more flying cards than extra-turn cards.
-
I want to stress one more time that primary, secondary, and tertiary are relative to how often an effect is used. Things that are secondary in a color, for example, may be far more prevalent in that color than things that are primary if the items in question occur at a higher frequency.
Source: https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2021
For example, MaRoo has repeatedly stated that red is primary in extra combat cards, with white as a contender for secondary.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2021
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/760377485190938624/can-any-color-aside-from-red-get-extra-combat
There are only 36 cards that grant an additional comabt. If primacy was considered as a proportion of cards that grant additional combats was considered only as a proportion of total cards of that color, I don't think any color would be considered primary.
So while there might be fewer cards that untap lands in green as a proportion of total green cards in recent years, that's not a relevant measure to color primacy. The relevant measure is how often cards that untap lands show up in green compared to other colors, which I think is demonstrated by the above lists that green has more land untap effects than any other color, with blue being nearly equivalent. That, according to MaRo's definition, means that land untapping is primary in green.
September 3, 2024 2:11 a.m.
wallisface says... #13
legendofa I never stated on the primary-or-secondary aspect of this effect, aside from my very first post posturing some speculation as to Rosewaters specific post. You're putting words in my mouth again ;)
September 3, 2024 2:15 a.m.
wallisface says... #14
It's also worth noting (and trying to edge us away from the math that's been covered pretty thoroughly now) that none of us actually make the game - and if the person who does says an effect fits into a specific primary/secondary/tertiary portion of a colours identity, and then stands by that statement, i'd be inclined to say he's correct over us
After all, we don't see the inner workings of what's going on - and he does, while also answering a question at the here-and-now, based on the current state of whatever Wotc deem the colour pie to be.
I would say that if you disagree with his statement, to ask him why and get a follow-up response.
September 3, 2024 2:21 a.m.
wallisface First of all, I want to make sure that there aren't any hard feelings here. I'm treating this as a friendly, or at least respectful, debate, and I don't want to come across as provocative or aggressive, only trying to defend my point.
But if I may take issue about your taking issue about what counts as an old card, I asked what extremely old cards you were referring to, and all of your examples were pre-2002. So I don't think I moved any goalposts about anything you said. From my point of view, all of your "extremely old" cards are at least twenty years old, which I would agree with. The "goalpost card" here, as I saw from your examples, was Argothian Elder. So I wasn't expecting you to follow up with cards from as recently as ten years ago being exteremly old. I would definitely call those outdated, but I wouldn't use the word "extremely" for those.
And if you say I'm putting words into your mouth, then I'm also misinterpreting what you mean by
-
"this does not take into account the actual percentage of cards printed in any given year."
-
"meaning those 2 cards represented a significantly lower percentage of what green represented that year."
-
"this effect has been getting an increasingly lower-percentage-share of cards given to it."
My position, which I believe is supported by MaRo's previous statements, is that proportion of cards printed in a given year isn't a relevant measure of color primacy. I'm interpreting those statements as trying to argue that view. Could you please explain this again?
September 3, 2024 2:25 a.m.
I'm reluctant to start a tumblr account, especially only to ask questions, but there have been times when I've been sorely tempted, and this is one of them. And I would the same points I'm using here.
I have actually emailed MaRo in the past, but I've never gotten a response, and I feel like laying out these points would take up more space than a tumblr post allows.
September 3, 2024 2:29 a.m.
wallisface Okay, you didn't talk about the primary or secondary aspects of this, but isn't the question simply about whether land untapping is primary in blue, green, or both? Isn't that the discussion in this thread?
September 3, 2024 2:39 a.m.
wallisface says... #18
legendofa that’s definitely the topic of the thread, yes. The problem with debating whether this effect its primary or secondary is:
-
the guy basically responsible for making the game has specified it’s secondary
-
it’s a metric used internally to get the colour pie correct, but it’s also something that changes frequently, and outside of occasional update-articles or Rosewater-responses, we don’t have access to.
-
because it’s a metric that changes frequently, we can’t rely on any historical data, because the effect may-well have-been primary or tertiary or not-even-on-their-register 2 years ago.
I maintain the only way to ascertain it’s actual status is to discuss with Rosewater himself (and, spoilers, he’s already said its secondary). If you can present a better metric for proving one-way-or-another, i’m all ears.
September 3, 2024 2:54 a.m.
wallisface Okay, gotcha. Back on track. Your position is that Mark Rosewater's is the ultimate authority on what is primary and what isn't in the color pie. Totally understandable.
Because I'm stubborn and I genuinely do think I'm right, I'm going to rephrase my position as "The available evidence doesn't support the idea that in this instance, MaRo's answer is correct and complete." He will occasionally misread or only partially answer the question that was asked. And while he may have more information that suggests that his answer is complete and correct, he is also very careful and very good at being very careful about making sure his answer matches what is publicly known and doesn't reveal any unreleased information. So I see a conflict. The ultimate authority here is providing an answer that doesn't match the available information.
Is it more likely that he accidentally gave away information about future color primacy, or that he made a mistake in reading or interpreting the question?
If nobody on his blog challenges his answer in the next couple of days, I'll make an account and put my money where my mouth is.
September 3, 2024 3:05 a.m.
Incidentally, the most recent publicly available information, that 2021 color pie article I referenced above, says that untapping lands is primary in green, and tertiary in blue. The difference between primary and tertiary is massive. So he's hugely contradicting the best available public information (which he provides), the card releases in the last couple years don't suggest anything has changed, and he's careful not to accidentally spill any future info.
I'm definitely going to ask, if nobody else does. Not that I'm obsessing about this or anything...
September 3, 2024 3:20 a.m.
wallisface says... #21
legendofa I do hope someone does ask him a follow up question to definitively answer one way or another - it would be good to see what his response/reasoning is, especially in-light of the 2021 article
September 3, 2024 4:20 a.m.
It's been two days since I promised, and more than a week since the initial question was asked. Let's see what happens.
September 6, 2024 1:27 a.m.
wallisface says... #23
legendofa good luck. Chuck the link up here if he answers.
I've got no skin in the game either-way, as my stance has always been that this kind of colour-ability scale is something only Wotc can really answer. But it'll be interesting none-the-less to see what Rosewater has to say on the matter.
September 6, 2024 1:47 a.m.
wallisface I'm using a different username for this ask, not legendofa. I'm also mostly curious to see what he says.
September 6, 2024 2:20 a.m.
Just tried asking again. I know he gets a lot of questions and it's late night in Washington. Hopefully it doesn't get lost.
September 8, 2024 3:23 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #26
The best time to get an answer is during local early morning hours on weekdays in my experience. It appears to be part of his pre-work morning routine. He seems to answer in last in, first out order.
September 8, 2024 8:20 a.m.
sergiodelrio Have you been able to get questions in to him?
September 8, 2024 11:42 a.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #28
Best of luck in getting your questions addressed. I've asked MaRo about a dozen questions at most over the last 3-4 years, and have had at most two answered. He also seems to go on streaks were he will answer questions in batches pertaining to current announcements.
September 8, 2024 1:50 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #29
You can also lie and start your question with "MaRo, it's my birthday, and I was wondering if you could answer...". He answers at least a couple of "birthday" questions each day lol.
September 8, 2024 3:07 p.m.
Crow_Umbra Cute, but now that I made the account, I have a very specific trivia ask that I want, so I"m saving for that. Honestly, MaRo probably wouldn't notice...
September 8, 2024 4:57 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #31
legendofa yes, using the method I mentioned. I believe he answered a handful of my questions, about the same amount went unanswered, but some of those were before I noticed that timing matters. That was years ago tho
September 8, 2024 5:56 p.m.
No response yet. I've been asking every couple of days. I might try a big blitz, just ask like twenty times in a row and be really annoying, but the initial question was two weeks ago, and there's been zero followup from MaRo or anyone else. Is it worth chasing down? I'd like an answer one way or the other, but it's really not life-changingly important.
September 12, 2024 4:18 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #33
If he does not respond within like an hour your ask is buried by then from new ask influx, don't expect MaRo to look at week old or even day old asks, he just gets that many. As mentioned before, he answers last in first out. You could try and snipe his ask feed... whenever you refresh the blog and see a fresh post/answer, send your ask immediately and hope he's on a streak
September 12, 2024 7:11 p.m.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/761742592398524416/hi-mark-could-you-please-explain-the-difference#notes
September 16, 2024 2:14 a.m.
I changed up the exact focus of the question, to see if that would help getting an answer. Don't know if it was that or good timing, but we have some more information.
September 16, 2024 2:23 a.m.
Triple post, woo! I'm willing to follow up this line of questioning if anyone would like more information, but I'm pretty satisfied with the answer, and it's probably going to take at least a few more days to get anything else. This one took almost ten days.
September 16, 2024 2:44 a.m.
wallisface says... #37
I think that's a pretty good answer from Mark in any case - there's a lot of cases where his answers are a lot-closer to 1-2 words, so it's a decent response :)
legendofa says... #2
This one's a little rough. Blue has the best "untap target permanent" selection, while almost all "untap target land" and "untap all lands you control" cards are green. So I would say MaRo's interpretation isn't quite right, missing the nuance that blue is the best at untapping any permanent (including lands), and that the difference between blue and green primacy in untapping lands is very small. I'm going to disagree with him on this one and say they're both primary, counting lands as a subset of permanents.
September 1, 2024 10:35 p.m.