Ravnica Allegiance: Spoilers and Speculation

Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum

Posted on Dec. 17, 2018, 11:52 a.m. by AgentGreen


Let's start the talking now :D

FSims81 says... #1

Playing it will go a long way towards me rendering my final verdict, but thus far I am loving this set. I am still leaning towards Simic as my pre-release guild and Rakdos for the two-headed giant pre-release event my LGS does.

January 11, 2019 4:47 p.m.

Coward_Token says... #2

Whew, I've sure talked a lot in this thread. Here's probably my (second-to-)last EDH clutter:

Lumbering Battlement : Drop it, exile your other ETB people then flicker it. There's probably some obvious Worldgorger Dragon -esque combos to be found. With the bonus it gets and its base stats I think the CMC is just fine.

Unbreakable Formation : Call me greedy but with green having Heroic Intervention I wish the prime defensive color got this at 2 CMC.

Eyes Everywhere : There's probably some fun abuse to be had when combined with owner-returning flickering; otherwise it faces stiff competition from Thassa, God of the Sea . Non- you steal from will probably not have much trouble activating its ability again due ubiquity of "any color" mana rocks, although that's far less certain with decks containing 2 or less colors.

Electrodominance : To squeeze just a bit more discussion out of this card, I think it's neat that this also functions as a one-time mana filter due to the genericness of .

Cavalcade of Calamity: I kinda wish they just color shifted Raid Bombardment to mono- instead, since red tends to have so much +X/+0 going on. At least the art is cool.

Persistent Petitioners: Ahahaha, oh yes, this is definitely how I want Advisor tribal to be flavored. A fine addition to the growing Relentless Rats family.

Font of Agonies : Loving the design space here. In the right deck this can probably be an efficient source of removal too.

Vindictive Vampire: For those tribal decks who feel bad over running Zulaport Cutthroat . Too bad it doesn't get Falkenrath Noble 's flying though. (+1 toughness isn't a very large consolation.)

Guardian Project : Kinda surprised Beast Whisperer got a rival right away. As far as singleton formats go, the it's a question of a body vs getting draws from cheating out creatures in addition to casting them.

Incubation Druid : There's stronger dorks out there, but I think it makes a fine complement if you can get counters on it reasonably early.

Rampage of the Clans : Fun in more chaotic Gahiji, Honored One decks

Bedevil : So I'm not a Putrefy fan but I'd still pick it over this if I had the choice, if only because the flexibility of the seems more valuable for the purpose of being able to more often react to threats at Instant speed over being able to target PWs. Still, this is something rakdos deserves and a fine choice when green isn't available.

Cindervines : Aura of Silence , Gruul-style! Neat for Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire decks who want more non-ETB removal.

Sunder Shaman : Not quite Trygon Predator but I think it's worth considering if you can't get that identity.

PS. What was the deal with Ferocious suddenly showing up incognito?

January 11, 2019 5:11 p.m.

CChaos - Tough to say until we actually get our hands on the cards, but from a first look I think WOTC did a decent job setting up a critical mass of payoffs and support for each guild. Hopefully that will lead to a balanced environment.....or it will be a terrible environment with Gruul just stampeding (or should I say Rioting?) over everyone else before they can even set up haha. I am definitely leaning towards either Simic or Orzhov for the pre-release.

Coward_Token - I am so glad I wasn't the only one who noticed the return of Ferocious.

January 11, 2019 10:27 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #4

We will WotC reveal the decklists for the guild kits for this set? I am hoping for some great reprints in those kits.

January 12, 2019 8:50 a.m.

Darkshadow327 says... #5

Probably end of January beginning of February I think DemonDragonJ, but that just speculation so don't quote me on that.

I have a hunch that Teysa Karlov will be the face of Orzhov, and I really think/hope that Debtors' Knell will be printed in it.

What cards do you guys think/hope will be printed in the guildkits?

January 12, 2019 3:30 p.m.

ERoss8 says... #6

Blake Rasmussen confirmed they’re released January 15.

Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/Aklex33/status/1081653312318042113

January 12, 2019 6:11 p.m.

Darkshadow327 says... #7

January 15 seems too early, the other guildkits were released after Guilds of Ravnica released

January 12, 2019 8:27 p.m.

ZendikariWol says... #8

I mean that and it's this Tuesday.

January 12, 2019 10:57 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #9

Darkshadow327, I very much would like to see a reprint of Voidslime in the Simic guild kit, because of how expensive that card currently is.

January 12, 2019 11:04 p.m.

Darkshadow327 says... #10


Ya, I looked into it and the WPN page says February

That would be a sweet reprint DemonDragonJ

January 13, 2019 1:28 a.m.

I called my LGS the day after the set was fully spoiled to preregister... Gruul was already sold out. 1 Day after spoilers. They are clearly the early favorite for strongest limited potential.

I can't decide if I want to go Rakdos or Orzhov. Mostly just for the solid removal I will likely need against gruul and simic folks.

I like Rakdos, the Showstopper a lot more in limited than Kaya, Orzhov Usurper and I think in general Rakdos has more solid limited cards. The new Teysa is awesome and all but it would be tough to build around her for limited... so if im gonna pray for a bomb rare/mythic I think I should go Rakdos. Thoughts?

January 14, 2019 9:44 a.m.

So has anyone noticed how fun Judith, the Scourge Diva and Teysa Karlov can be with Lifeline ? The deck would essentially be a Mardu Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker shell (sadly Judith's pump ability is a non-bo Shirei himself). It also saddens me greatly that Judith doesn't trigger for tokens dying, but owell time to brew!

LittleBlueHero - I'd say just follow your heart on your chosen guild, but Rakdos did look pretty strong in LRR's pre-prerelease. The only guild that I wasn't impressed with was Simic, but I think that may have been more due to piloting error and not the guild itself. The pre-prerelease is also a super small sample size so take that for what it's worth.

January 14, 2019 10:27 a.m.

For sure, I haven't seen the Pre-Prerelease yet so thats helpful thanks.

My heart likes to play big splashy creatures and since Gruul is out I think Rakdos is next in line with some powerful finishers. Simic has a few too im just usually bad at piloting blue.

Orzhov is a favorite of mine but I think I like most of the cards for commander reasons and that is skewing my desire to play it.

I also think going Rakdos makes sense logically because going jund would be easy if I happen to pull a lot of good gruul on top of my seeded rakdos pack

January 14, 2019 11:03 a.m.

dbpunk says... #14

Personally I like this set for commander more than standard and limited. However, I will note that the way the guilds interplay with each other and the current Mana base (at least until Ixalan disappears from standard) means a lot of tri-color decks will be available and easy to build.

January 14, 2019 1:27 p.m.

dbpunk says... #15

Personally I like this set for commander more than standard and limited. However, I will note that the way the guilds interplay with each other and the current Mana base (at least until Ixalan disappears from standard) means a lot of tri-color decks will be available and easy to build.

January 14, 2019 1:28 p.m.

dbpunk says... #16

Personally I like this set for commander more than standard and limited. However, I will note that the way the guilds interplay with each other and the current Mana base (at least until Ixalan disappears from standard) means a lot of tri-color decks will be available and easy to build.

January 14, 2019 1:31 p.m.

ZendikariWol says... #17

No need to spam, good sir. This actually looks like a really nice limited environment to me, but other than two or three cards, I'm not super excited for it in commander.

January 14, 2019 1:48 p.m.

dbpunk says... #18

Sorry must've been a buggy connection. I didn't realize it spammed.

January 14, 2019 4:30 p.m.

Rabid_Wombat says... #19

Persistent Petitioners is going to be one of the best cards in Standard.

It will make Mill viable and will see play in every format - especially Modern because Archive Trap .

January 14, 2019 8:32 p.m.

cdkime says... #20

Rabid_Wombat - I disagree that Persistent Petitioners will make a splash in Modern. A well-tuned mill deck can already end the game on turn 3-4 through powerful mill cards like Glimpse the Unthinkable . Persistent Petitioners might shore up one of mill’s weaknesses, lack of board presence, but a sideboarded Ensnaring Bridge is better than a large number of mediocre blockers.

I always like to compare mill to burn since both play similar to one another.

Would a 1/3 that read “you can have as many copies; tap four of these to deal 5 damage to target player” make a big splash? I think not. It is vastly less efficient than Lightning Bolt and friends, and sideboarding Ensnaring Bridge

January 14, 2019 9:31 p.m.

Rabid_Wombat says... #21

cdkime I don't get the mill/burn comparison...two totally different play styles and deck builds.

Mill is more control and harder to run than Burn which is just aggro. Maybe you got mixed up and were thinking of Stompy?

Players have more options to defend against Burn through Life Gain whereas their are fewer ways to defend against mill. And mill has Counterspells and card draw galore!

Ensnaring Bridge is not a wincon so it is not better at all and has zero relevance- especially when you refer to it in the SB...c'mon man.

Persistent Petitioners gives mill a new way to help deck an opponent, while at the same time offering defence against aggro - which is huge. No mill deck has ever really shone in Modern...that is going to change.

Not to mention that Persistent Petitioners will Dominate Pauper -it will be banned in that format asap.

If anyone wants to speculate- buy a few dozen at 25/50 cents each and flip them next month for 5 bucks a piece :D

January 15, 2019 12:01 a.m.

Darkshadow327 says... #22


He's just comparing the fact that having to use multiple cards just to deal damage/mill is very inefficient in modern. There are just more effective ways to mill. Without ramp (which is very likely, you are in dimir after all) the soonest you can get 4 petitioners is turn 4, and that is with perfect draws/a deck stuffed full of them. The soonest you can mill for 12 is turn 5, plus then you have to do that 2 or 3 more times. This puts winning on turn 7-8, slow for modern. By the time those turns come around you have likely lost or don't have enough petitioners to mill because your opponents deal with them. Being a creature the are vulnerable to removal such as Fatal Push , and tempo. Not to mention they are within Lightning Strike range.

The comparison to Ensnaring Bridge is the fact mill doesn't really put a lot of creatures out, so bridge prevents opponents from attacking you.

Besides pauper is a very different format than modern.

Long story short: They may see play in casual modern, but no competitive play. The deck would just be too weak.

January 15, 2019 12:24 a.m.

cdkime says... #23

Rabid_Wombat - Modern Mill is a burn deck, you're just burning their library, rather than their life total. Let's look at how a typical mill game plays out, and you will see how, despite not attacking life, it is an aggro playstyle, rather than control:

Turn 1: Land + Hedron Crab Turn 2: Land + Glimpse the Unthinkable + Hedron Crab trigger for 13 mill for turn. Turn 3: Land + Fraying Sanity + Hedron Crab trigger + Fraying Sanity trigger for 6 mill for turn; 19 total. Turn 4: Land + Breaking + Mind Sculpt + Hedron Crab trigger + Fraying Sanity trigger for 36 mill for turn, 55 mill total, and a victory on next draw once you factor in an opening hand.

To pull off this turn 4 win consistently, your deck is going to be running 4x Hedron crabs, 4x Fraying Sanity ; 20x "burn" spells ( Glimpse the Unthinkable , Mind Funeral , Breaking / Entering ; Mind Sculpt and Archive Trap ), 8x draw spells ( Thought Scour and Visions of Beyond ). That leaves you 20 coloured lands and 4x Field of Ruin (to force Archive Trap ), making a round 60.

Persistent Petitioners is worse than every single card on that list. There is no room for four copies, let alone more. As such, it will make no difference in mill's Modern viability.

But wait, you say, what about mill as a control deck?

Control's goal is to attack valuable resources, leaving you in a better position for victory. The library, which mill attacks, is not a valuable resource--until actualized, those are just hidden cards with no intrinsic value. There is little synergy between these two strategies, leaving mill-control a vastly inferior option to mill-burn. 60 "life" is a lot more than 20, making it far more likely that you run out of control resources before your opponent runs out of cards.

Even in such a deck, you would still not want Persistent Petitioners , as it would detract from your absolutely necessary control cards and high-value mill cards.

With regards to Ensnaring Bridge , Darkshadow327 accurately surmised my point. The only benefit Petitioners provide to mill is a mid-sized blocker. Ensnaring Bridge is far better against aggressive creature-based decks, making it superior to Petitioners for defence.

Just like in a burn deck, you do not want to mainboard Ensnaring Bridge --it's only really useful against hyper aggressive decks that risk overwhelming you before you can finish milling. Against slower decks, those three mana would be better spent going for a faster kill.

The reason mill doesn't shine in Modern is because, as much as it pains me to say this, it is a bad archetype. It's burn, but you're attacking a 60-life resource, rather than a 20-life one. Further, your "burn" spells can only attack an opponent, whereas Lightning Bolt can take out an enemy in a pinch. With regards to your point about mitigation of burn vs. mitigation of mill, many decks do not run lifegain, and a good burn deck

Darkshadow327 - one correction to your post, you can mill for 12 the turn you've fielded four copies of Petitioners. As there is no symbol in the mill-12 ability, summoning sickness does not apply.

January 15, 2019 1:36 a.m.

Rabid_Wombat says... #24

Darkshadow327 I was referring to Mono-Blue Modern builds...and I said Persistent Petitioners would make Mill "viable" not competitive - there is a big difference.

I would not be surprised if they help Mill win a few Standard tournaments though!

cdkime Actually, the Library is the most valuable resource...through milling it away you are actively achieving card & resource (mana) denial and when your opponent runs out of cards you win when they can no longer draw cards!

Forget about Glimpse the Unthinkable etc...Modern Mono-Blue Mill is going to be where it's at - it will be so much faster than the lame current Modern build you refer to.

Mill in Modern used to be a "bad archetype" but just wait until people are running 20x Persistent Petitioners and 4x Archive Trap in their decks!

And oh yeah...their price has more than tripled in the last few hours ;) :D

January 15, 2019 2:27 a.m.

cdkime says... #25


The library has no intrinsic value on its own. It has the potential for value, but, until actualised, that is all cards in the linrary are. Barring certain situations, you do not know I’d that top card is your 10th land or a much-needed Path to Exile .

Compare to other resources. Life is a more commonly attacked resource, frequently used with shocks/fetches to improve one’s mana. Cards on the battlefield and cards on the stack are realised or soon-to-be-realised. Cards in-hand are known quantities, ready for immediate use. Cards in the graveyard are also known and there is (barring some really old cards) no limit on where you can take cards from.

The library sits there. It provides no relevant information on its own. Yes, it might have the card you want next, but only the Fates know. Until those cards are put into another zone, be it your hand, graveyard, battlefield, or stack, they are little more than statistical probabilities.

To attack the library is to attack these statistical probabilities, not a resources your opponent is using or can swiftly use.

You are not actually denying them either cards or mana - you are denying them an unknown. Yes, you might mill away the card they need; you might also mill away a bunch of useless cards, moving their bomb to the next draw.

To add another problem Petitioners face in Modern, that I previously failed to mention: Meddling Mage . Meddling Mage is commonly played in Humans, itself a common deck. This is not a card you can easily sideboard against, particularly since you have 25 potential dead cards in your proposed deck.

You say “Forget about Glimpse the Unthinkable ” and that mono-Blue will be “much faster”, but you have offered no evidence in support of said claim.

To the contrary, I have offered a deck with a potential turn 4 victory. I have presented, currently unanswered, difficulties with control-based mill.

By all means, I would be happy to be proven wrong. In case the long-winded analysis has not said it for me, I love mill, and would like to see it be viable. Fraying Sanity helped a lot, but it is still a bit too fragile.

Also, contrary to your statement:

I said Persistent Petitioners would make Mill "viable" not competitive - there is a big difference.

You actually said it would be viable in every format, “especially Modern”, evidencing a belief mill was more than simply viable. You went on to say mill would “shine” in a follow-up post. Without actual evidence, you claimed the new mill deck would be faster than the “lame” current one, which would put it a turn-three victory. That would be downright fantastic and possibly competitive for a Modern deck, if it worked.

So, pardon me if I think your backpeddling is a misrepresentation of your previous posts.

With regards to price, it is going up for the same reason Shadowborn Apostle is decently priced. Casual players love cards like this, but they need 20 to 40 copies (depending on format). As such, even if there is a small quantity of buyers, each is ordering 4 to 10, people’s worth of playsets. Supply is low, demand, in terms of quantity of cards, is high, and prices increase as a result.

January 15, 2019 9:04 a.m. Edited.

FSims81 says... #26

I love Persistent Petitioners for standard as I am currently seeing play test win possibilities of turn 6-8 depending on draw and lack of response. I don't see it being much faster in Modern even with the format being faster overall. Maybe wins on turn 5-6 with perfect draw and no response. The main problem is available card pool. Modern simply offers too many options to consider everything where as in standard you pretty much know what you'll see and can plan for it/around it. Persistent Petitioners will be a fun card to play and it will make mill more viable in formats where it isn't currently seeing a lot of play but I don't think you'll improve upon current mill burn that exists in Modern with it.

January 15, 2019 9:39 a.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #27

I have Destructive Revelry in a deck, but would Cindervines be a good replacement for it? It has the same initial mana cost, but does require 1 additional mana to achieve the same effect, although it has an additional effect for the greater investment. What does everyone else say about that?

Also, the decklists for the guild kits were revealed today; just as I had hoped, Voidslime was reprinted!

January 15, 2019 8:27 p.m.

dbpunk says... #28

DemonDragonJ I mean, both have their own fit within the deck. An opponent can predict if you'll use Cindervines ability, but you could surprise them with Destructive Revelry , which is why DR is good in that case. Also, if it's a creature heavy deck, Cindervines might just get played around. However, Cindervines is good if you want to punish decks that primarily utilize noncreature spells too and you can hold off destroying something worrying you until later.

It kinda depends on the metal you're playing against: is it mostly creatures with some powerhouse enchantments or is it primarily noncreature spells?

January 15, 2019 8:51 p.m.

Agent_Fire says... #29

Cindervines is pretty good against storm, compared to Revelry.

January 15, 2019 8:56 p.m.

These lists are pretty fine-ish. I'm a little let down that they didn't include Obzedat, Ghost Council , but two different teysas and the old Ghost Council of Orzhova are fine I guess.

I'm glad they didn't forget about momir vig, so at least I'll get the simic box and be happy with it.

The rakdos one looks great btw.

January 16, 2019 3:59 a.m.

Outside of Azorious these guild kits look great!

Each guild besides Azorious got at least one $$ card. The Debtors' Knell and Voidslime reprints are much appreciated, but there are some other great choices here too. I do like their choices on which new cards they included as well.

My only complaint is that some of the new artwork for the legends is pretty bad (looking at you Teysa, Orzhov Scion and Zegana, Utopian Speaker ).

January 16, 2019 12:31 p.m.

ZendikariWol says... #32

Trying to decide how many I should buy. Absolutely Simic, but what about Gruul and Orzhov?? Which do I pick!

January 16, 2019 1:07 p.m.

Darkshadow327 says... #33

I agree Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor. The Orzhov one has me super excited. Out of the new art Isperia, Supreme Judge and Ruric Thar, the Unbowed have my favorite art. While Teysa, Orzhov Scion isn't the best art I've ever seen, it is kinda cool (plus the flavor text is great "Spend your life betraying me if you wish. I'll simply take it up with your ghost."

I would say Orzhov ZendikariWol, but I'm biased since Orzhov is my favorite guild . . .

January 16, 2019 6:41 p.m.

Rabid_Wombat says... #34

cdkime here is a Mono Blue Modern Merfolk style Petitioners deck example:

T1. Mutavault , play Aether Vial T2. Island , cheat in a 1CMC Advisor like Minister of Inquiries , play Persistent Petitioners T3. land, cheat in any Advisor (1 or 2CMC). Pay for Mutavault and tap all Advisors to mill 12. You still have a U to play something or save for a Spell Pierce. If you played 2 Advisors this turn you could technically mill for 15 if you use Minister of Inquiries ability. T4: Continue to mill and control magic.

As for Vintage and Legacy formats - Petitioners/Mana Rocks/Thrumming Stone/Tutors/FoW = Turn One Win!

January 16, 2019 8:26 p.m.

cdkime says... #35

Rabid_Wombat - I am going to post my response on your wall. As much as I enjoy discussing Mill theory, I am sure others will soon be quite persistent in their petitions for a return to discussing other cards.

January 16, 2019 9:57 p.m.

HARDsofty says... #36

Is Boros coming back this set?

January 17, 2019 9:18 a.m.

I am SUPER happy with those guild kits.

Not only did they include a decent money card in most but all of them look super playable AND there are a lot of good standard cards I expect to be staples in the upcoming season.

I am preordering them all like I did with the last ones so I can finish my Battle Box. The decks will remain as they are and my group will draw a random guild dice out of bag and be assigned that guild, play some round robin, have people bring a pack for prize and bingo-bango you got a fun replacement for draft when you're friends and you are broke.

The new art is really awesome too. Teysa is the weakest of the new arts IMO simply because its less dramatic. She looks good in it though. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is amazing and I may have to build a commander deck for him just because i like the art so much. Zegana, Utopian Speaker also looks way better (IMO) than he rather stale card in the set. It also makes me wonder what her story is because I never saw her as a warrior like that... its awesome.

January 17, 2019 10:13 a.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #38

Why is Ruric Thar, and not Borborygmos, the face card of the Gruul guild kit? Borborygmos is definitely much more powerful than he is, in terms of both gameplay and story.

January 17, 2019 8:58 p.m.

If anyone is curious. Here is the Judith, the Scourge Diva EDH deck that I have been working on.

January 17, 2019 11:40 p.m.


I would think the reason is simply that Big G didn't offer much as far as a theme to build the deck around.

Using Ruric as the face card makes the direction of the deck clear, and easier to put together with the available card pool than say Borborygmos Enraged who is cool and unique, but whose mechanic isn't really supported by his tribe. Original Borborygmos is simply a big beater which is great for gruul, but it doesn't offer much deck building direction.

January 18, 2019 11:29 a.m.

FSims81 says... #41

That or people were promised a Ruric via flavor text on guild gates so they figured this was still delivering?

January 18, 2019 11:47 a.m.

Argy says... #42

realBorborygmos are your ears burning?

No prerelease for me tonight, so I can't give anyone feedback.

I'm cutting back on my involvement with Magic.

Will just be attending a Sunday arvo prerelease this time.

January 18, 2019 12:57 p.m.

Boza says... #43

I have chosen Simic for my prerelease that I will be attending in a few hours. I am hoping for a Vannifar: Prime Speaker promo, but almost anything in Simic will be a good promo.

I will be sure let you know how it goes :)

January 18, 2019 2:31 p.m.

AgentGreen says... #44

Argy That's unfortunate.

I'm locked into 3 events; Azorius, Orzhov and Simic in that order

Azorius and Orzhov I'll be playing this weeked; Simic is likely going to be a bust due to a major winter storm forecast to hit on Sunday (1-1.5ft of snow expected to fall)

January 18, 2019 3:52 p.m.

Argy says... #45

It's been 102F days here right now.

January 18, 2019 4:08 p.m.

cdkime says... #46

Looking forward to prerelease. I think I will be playing Orzhov, unless my SO wants that guild, in which case I will probably play Azorius. I will be happy with either. They might not be as powerful as Gruul is shaping out to be, but, to paraphrase the Guilds of Ravnica tagline, I stand with my Shard.

Totally understand your decision to cut back on Magic Argy. I wanted to thank you for your past prerelease breakdowns--always thought they were a great and helpful read!

January 18, 2019 4:16 p.m.

Argy says... #47

After playing around with the set now, I think this is my favourite card (and I HATE so that's saying something)

Biogenic Ooze

Mark my words, that thing will win games of prerelease single-handedly.

January 18, 2019 4:45 p.m.

HARDsofty says... #48

Boros coming back?

January 18, 2019 5:51 p.m.

legendofa says... #49

HARDsofty No Boros this time; the guilds were split 5 in Guilds of Ravnica and 5 in Ravnica Allegiance. You might be able to fake something in Limited with Azorius, Gruul, Orzhov, and Rakdos cards, but the land base won't be there. They should make an appearance in the Jacetice League Blows Up Ravnica! set, though.

January 18, 2019 7:02 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #50

Judging from the past several sets, will all angel tokens now have both vigilance and flying, or is that something being done for only those sets?

Also, the original Ravnica block had Rakdos Pit Dragon , the Return to Ravnica block had Hypersonic Dragon , and now, this block has Skarrgan Hellkite , meaning that the Boros guild is now the only red-aligned guild that does not have dragons (in fact, there are no pure red/white dragons in the game, at all: Rith, the Awakener , Numot, the Devastator , and Oros, the Avenger all have a third color), so will the Boros eventually have dragons, as well?

January 19, 2019 1:43 a.m.

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