|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Modern Masters (MMA)||Uncommon|
|Alara Reborn (ARB)||Uncommon|
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Target opponent reveals cards from the top of his or her library until four land cards are revealed. That player puts all cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard.
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Mind Funeral Discussion
14 hours ago
I did some playtesting using your current list, and came up with the following suggestions:
I think you should get rid of Evolving Wilds. Modern is far, far too fast for lands that enter the battlefield tapped. Instead run Watery Grave. I was having problems in my playtest of receiving the colours that I wanted to play, which Watery Grave will fix. I would also cut two of your Islands to run a full playset of Watery Grave--making sure you have the colours you need as quickly as possible is critical (particularly if you want by turn 2).
I don't think Ipnu Rivulet is a big enough impact to be worth playing. It's three mana to mill four cards, and puts you down a mana for the rest of the game. Instead, consider Flooded Strand or other Black/Blue fetch lands (Flooded Strand is currently the least expensive, which is why I suggested it in particular). Flooded Strand can be used to fetch Watery Graves, ensuring you have the mana you need by turn 2 (and also mill for a total of 6 with Hedron Crab).
I was not impressed how Blink of an Eye worked. There were a couple instances where it helped remove an enemy creature or protect a Hedron Crab, but I almost always found myself wishing I had another mill card. Same goes for Jace's Phantasm.
21 hours ago
@cdkime thank you so much for your insight and suggestions! I agree with your points and have been feeling the same regarding some cards such as Patient Rebuilding and Startled Awake Flip, as well as removing the Planeswalkers altogether.
Syncopate... Let's forget I even made that choice, no idea why I had that in a deck like this.
For my meta regarding the people I play on a the regular, Jace's Phantasm has indeed helped me out in utilizing them as a blocker while I prep in the early game, but it does take away one mana I could be using on a Hedron Crab, Visions of Beyond or a milling spell. For now they will serve as a placeholder until I find a more suitable replacement, as well as easy sideboard option for other cards like Sentinel Totem, Mind Funeral, or Surgical Extraction.
I'd love to hear your feedback on the changes I made accordingly to your advice and more or less if I also adjusted my lands to compensate for adding Glimpse the Unthinkable to the main and both Surgical Extraction and Mind Funeral to the sideboard.
@PhoenixNest I did test out Fleet Swallower in a very early build when I first started to play, but for the same reason you both stated before the cost is too high to resolve its effect consistently. Thank you though for all your suggestions! :)
1 day ago
Before getting into suggestions, I have some general feedback. A lot of the cards you currently have are fantastic, but don't really belong in mill. Mill is a bit of a strange archetype--because it is Blue, lots of players think "control" when they play mill. In my experience, this is not a great way to think about it. Mill is far closer to mono-Red burn than it is to other blue decks--your goal is to "burn" the opponent as quickly as possible. The difficulty with mill is that your opponent has 60 health, as opposed to 20, meaning you have much further to go than with a traditional burn deck.
To that end, the following cards do not help you very much:
Any of your Planeswalkers: Jace, the Mind Sculptor is arguably the best planeswalker ever printed, but doesn't add much to your overall game plan. Further, the earliest he comes out is turn 4--that's the turn where you want to go for the kill, having played your Fraying Sanity on turn 3. Jace Beleren comes out when you want to play other cards, without adding to your victory. Jace, Memory Adept comes out too late to really make a difference--you're better off blitzing them with your remaining mill spells on turn 5.
Syncopate - you have better things to do with your open mana. Turn 1, this card is useless. Turn 2, you ideally want to hit with a mill spell or drop another Hedron Crab, making this card again useless. Turn 3 is Fraying Sanity. Turn 4 is burn. There's not really a good time to play this card.
Patient Rebuilding is a pretty fun, flavourful card, but also comes out too late to really make a difference.
Jace's Archivist is another card taking up your valuable three-drop slot, and doesn't really do much. By turn 4, when you can first activate the ability, your opponent is likely down to 2-4 cards, making the additional mill insignificant. Further, Archivist does nothing the turn you drop it--not ideal in such a fast-paced gameplan.
Jace's Phantasm can be helpful as a blocker, but in my experience, there's always something better to play. This might be worth keeping depending on the other decks in your meta.
Here are some cards to add (as well as a few few more cards to cut directly followed by their upgraded version):
Surgical Extraction is a must in any mill sideboard - Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a common enough card that you need a way to deal with her being placed into the graveyard. Because it uses Phyrexian mana, there’s no need to run any lands that produce Black.
I'm going to second PhoenixNest's Archive Trap and Ghost Quarter suggestion. This is just a wonderful combo, and enough players are running fetches that you can usually Archive Trap without Ghost Quarter (or, at the very least, slow down their mana as they'll be scared to fetch).
1 week ago
@cdkime I think those are some pretty good points on all accounts regarding both cards in question... Throughout this conversation and more play testing those points are becoming more and more apparent.
As far as the goal/motivation behind the deck... I am aiming to have it revolve around the creatures mostly... Hedron Crab, Jace's Phantasm, Wight of Precinct Six and or Consuming Aberration/Phenax, God of Deception... I am just a fan of Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver for his +2 making him difficult to kill making him being a "Mill" engine that can also plop down more creatures as well as a devotion enabler tentatively...
But because I want these creatures... It severly limits how many Mill spells I can have so I need as much bang/Mill as I can efficiently have... Hence why I was pretty interested in pursuing Mind Funeral with Howling Mine... But It might not be as great of an idea as I originally thought.
1 week ago
Regarding Howling Mine:
It's more than just giving your opponent "one extra card."
Mill is traditionally a hyper-aggressive deck--a good analogy is Burn. Both generally try to win as explosively as possible, killing an opponent before they can be overwhelmed themselves. There's two big differences though: (1) Burn can also target creatures, giving it some protection, and (2) Burn has to deal 20 damage, while Mill has to deal 53.
A traditional Mill deck cannot afford to play Howling Mine--your turn three play should be Fraying Sanity. Fraying Sanity can make an immediate difference--after all, a traditional Mill deck likely milled for 3-6 that turn with Hedron Crab (with possible fetch land), netting you a total mill of 6-12. Howling Mine, on the other hand, gets you 1 card.
Your deck is different and much, much slower than a traditional Mill deck. That doesn't mean Howling Mine is a good card for you. It's "mill" effect is inconsequential, particularly in a format that tends to be fairly quick. That it provides your opponent a card first is huge, particularly if you try to play this turn 3, and thus have no mana open for answers. The effects of card advantage are not mirrored, and there are many decks (Red Burn) that would benefit far more from the "equal" card advantage than your deck.
Regarding Mind Funeral:
You might be correct that, against certain decks, particularly those heavy with fetch lands or spells, Mind Funeral could have a larger return. My issue was mostly with your statement Howling Mine would help by "making it more likely to draw into lands therefore making Mind Funeral that much more potent". As explained, that is not how probability works.
Regardless, you are also ignoring fairly important difference--the mana cost. Even if you might get two additional cards over Glimpse the Unthinkable, the additional cost presents a huge problem. Waiting an additional turn to cast one of your large spells or not being able to double cast on turn 4 is a huge problem in a traditionally fast-paced deck.
I'm curious, which part is more important to you--building a deck around Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver or building a competitive Mill deck? If the former, I do not think Mill is the right way to go--"milling" three cards per turn is pretty bad, particularly if it does not trigger Fraying Sanity or activate your other graveyard synergies. If the latter, then I would recommend cutting all the fun cards, and focusing on "burn" spells.
1 week ago
@cdkime I do agree that the biggest concern is the likelihood of an opponent drawing into an answer... but likewise doesnt the same apply for the user and in the end just "speed up" the game as a whole? The only real separating factor being that very first draw....then it just goes back to the typical faith/luck aspect of the Mill strategy that their would-be answer/bomb goes into the Graveyard through milling/Thoughtseize/Go for the Throat.
I dont use Fraying Sanity but its wort a look Considering how this Mill deck isnt exactly geared towards spamming mill spells but rather establishing milling engines through Hedron Crab/Mesmeric Orb/Consuming Aberration and then just aiming to get the most value for casting Mind Funeral.
This is someones math I ripped from the comment section of Gatherer...
- *"I haven't seen any rock-solid math for this card on here yet, so I programmed a simple simulation to see how many cards on average this spell would mill. I used a deck size of 60 cards, casting this spell after the opponent had drawn their starting hand of 7, plus 3 cards, which seems reasonable given that this is a 3-mana spell. I varied the lands between 19 (hyper-aggressive) and 26 (hyper-control) to show the effectiveness spectrum. The simulation was run one million times for each scenario. Here we go:
Average cards milled from deck with 19 land cards: 12.2
Average cards milled from deck with 20 land cards: 11.62
Average cards milled from deck with 21 land cards: 11.09
Average cards milled from deck with 22 land cards: 10.61
Average cards milled from deck with 23 land cards: 10.17
Average cards milled from deck with 24 land cards: 9.76
Average cards milled from deck with 25 land cards: 9.38
Average cards milled from deck with 26 land cards: 9.04
We can conclude from these results that this card is more effective against decks light on lands (obviously), but specifically that this seems to be, on average against the typical deck you would face, strictly worse than Glimpse the Unthinkable."*
In a deck size of 60 cards, casting this spell after the opponent had drawn their starting hand of 7, plus 3 cards for a deck having 24-26 lands It may average out to be worse... but I challenge that with the use of fetch lands like Scalding Tarn and typically only being able to lay one land per turn im making the case that as the draws go on the land hunting mill effects would be a more suitable mill spell/finisher.... thoughts?
1 week ago
If you're trying to mill them out with Mind Funeral, I would try to figure out some way to kick a Sadistic Sacrament before I play it. A player with 22 non-fetching lands might survive (15 for sacrament, 3 in play/hand, 4 for the Funeral).
Bonus points since this is maindeck hate for most modern combos. On turn 3, cast it and take every copy of Grapeshot, for example.
1 week ago
Howling Mine is not a good card. Here's why:
It increases the chance your opponents are going to draw their answers.
The one additional mill per turn is insignificant in the long run, particularly as it does not trigger Fraying Sanity.
A 60 card deck is primarily non-land cards. This means your opponent has a higher chance of drawing a non-land card as opposed to a land card. More often than not, you are actually decreasing the effectiveness of Mind Funeral.