Why do you play Legacy and Vintage???
Legacy forum
Posted on Nov. 13, 2013, 7:31 p.m. by Matsi883
I'm writing an article series (the first one is soon to be released) that is an overview of the different formats, and an upcoming article will be talking about Legacy and Vintage. One of the things I write in each article is why you should play that format.
Why do you guys like and play Legacy and Vintage?
gnarlicide says... #4
I play legacy on occasion. I like it because it brings back old memories. The game is also a helluva challenge in legacy. While many cards commonly pop up, the card pool is so large that there is always something that catches you off guard, (I'm looking at you, Red Elemental Blast
).
Vintage is gay. I don't think I have seen a match go into a second turn.
"I roll, 15"
"I roll 3"
"I will be on the play, I keep my hand, I win"
That's literally how it goes. Vintage is a format for shit eating criminals that wouldn't know good a good magic game if it walked up, kicked them in the ass and stole their fat wallets and broken combos.
Soapbox done.
November 13, 2013 8:07 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #5
My only legacy deck is Tezz Affinity and that's only because it shares a lot of common cards with Domo Arigato Mr. Roboto, my modern version.
November 13, 2013 8:10 p.m.
@gnarlicide: Wow. That's better than Epoch's rant about Vintage, and that is immortalized on fluffybunnypants's wall.
@Ohthenoises: So, why do you like Legacy?
November 13, 2013 8:14 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #7
I don't really like it, it's FAR too expensive, the only reason that I built it was because the artifact lands only cost $.50-$1 each and that was the only difference.
The only reason I built it was because I had most of the cards already. So I guess that's why I play legacy at all.
November 13, 2013 8:18 p.m.
Wizard of the Damned says... #10
Huge card pools and crazy combos is why I find them entertaining. If I can storm an Empty the Warrens to swing for 854 damage when I combo off then I'm in
November 13, 2013 8:31 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #11
Yeah, the "V" word... Legacy rocks, modern at a close second. Limited is third, although I haven't won a single match in draft since the great RTR month long win streak of 2012 (I still do good in sealed). Standard... Meh, it's a format. It gets boring after you play eternal for a few weeks straight.
I haven't brought myself to play EDH. The locals are a little too hardcore in the closet case department in the EDH league. I kind of stray away from them. They even play in a different room at the shop.
November 13, 2013 8:34 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #12
I play Legacy (ANT and U/W/R Miracles) on Cockatrice. I would play Legacy by slinging cardboard if I had the cash to sink into it, but, alas, I don't.
As for Vintage.... as previously alluded to, I have something in cold storage for that subject.
Epochalyptik says...
"Vintage is a bastard format. It's the only format that lets you play with everything, but, as a result, it's a degenerate combo format with little room for the metas that flourish in other formats."
Yep.
November 13, 2013 8:43 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #13
Yeah, the combos in vintage are, whoever wins the die roll...
November 13, 2013 8:46 p.m.
@fluffybunnypants: I had that in mind, but gnarlicide's is way better.
November 13, 2013 8:48 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #15
I will say it was an entertaining rant, especially the part about "shit eating criminals."
November 13, 2013 8:54 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #16
fluffybunnypants I come from the school of thought that vintage players need to be publicly shamed, like animals that urinate on themselves.
November 13, 2013 8:58 p.m.
Zzzzz....anyone who says Vintage comes down to the die roll and is a turn one format hasn't played competitive Vintage. I don't trust their opinion at all on the format if they refuse to play it based on stereotypes. The restricted list exists for a reason. No one wants to play solitaire that comes down to a die roll. Trinisphere , Mind's Desire , Tolarian Academy , etc. etc. are all on there.
Let's take a look at some actual facts, starting with the 2013 Vintage Championship, shall we? Oh look, one combo deck in the top 8. The rest of the top 8? Three Tempo decks, three control decks, and one aggro deck.
The other major Vintage event in 2013 was GenCon. Two aggro decks, two control decks, two combo decks, one midrange, and one combo-midrange were in the top 8. And oh! There were seven different archetypes.
The decks that want to go for turn two or sooner kills are combo, and that's only because they don't want their opponents to drop Sphere of Resistance or hit them with Mana Drain . Going off that soon can also be risky because it leaves you open to get slammed by Force of Will or Mindbreak Trap .
Ritual-based combo has been on the decline in Vintage anyway because of Lodestone Golem bringing back Mishra's Workshop -based prison decks. There's actually talk of unrestricting combo cards to help them make a comeback.
/end rebuttal of why I hate non-Vintage players talking about a format they don't play.
Anywho, as to why I play Legacy and Vintage:
I like Legacy because it's a pretty wide open format that allows for a lot of breathing room for designing new decks. There's a lot of cards that enable you to play less powerful ones. Everything from Humans to Werewolf Prison is playable in Legacy. Of course, you still have your tier one Show and Tell or Shardless BUG lists, but they're hardly unbeatable with proper sideboarding.
I don't like how rock-paper-scissors the format can be at times. There's a lot of match-ups that are really one-sided. I think combo decks are the easiest to pilot in Legacy, as well, with the exception of ANT (which is probably the hardest deck to play in the history of Magic). If your opponent doesn't have an answer, you just kind of win without trying. If they have Force of Will or something else, you lose hard. Legacy often feels like the game is decided on turn two as to who will win.
Vintage is my favorite format and is Magic's greatest. It's the format that rewards players the most for new ideas and understanding metagames. It also has the most diversity of any format. The Power Nine enable a lot of cards to be more powerful than they would in other formats. Spiketail Hatchling , for example, is pretty much unplayable in any other format. In Vintage? It stops broken turn one plays and was a key piece of Fish decks for a long time. One of my recent favorite pieces of tech has been Frogtosser Banneret on turn one into Earwig Squad on turn two. The ability to gut my opponent's singleton Time Vault or Tendrils of Agony feels amazing.
I think Draft is the only format that allows you to micro someone else's macro. Since you get to make bigger plays sooner, you often have more resources and answers available. I had someone Tinker into Blightsteel Colossus on turn two, so I Demonic Consultation ed into Warren Weirding . Same thing happened in a tournament this past Halloween, except I was playing Keeper instead of Goblins. I just Echoing Truth ed the Blightsteel Colossus back to his hand, netting a three-for-one. There's also the story of when the guy played two Phyrexian Revoker s, both naming Jace, the Mind Sculptor . The reason? So he couldn't Lightning Bolt one, then bounce the other and Force of Will it. It made it so the control player had to have spot removal for both. Comebacks are much more obtainable in Vintage than anywhere else in the game.
You just don't see plays in other formats like you do in Vintage. I think my only criticism of the format is the existence of the reserved list, which puts this giant barrier in the way of attracting newer players. That has more to do with WotC's reprint policy and the reserved list, however, than it does with the format. The reserved list hurts Legacy and EDH just as badly.
There's more information on the format over at the http://www.themanadrain.com. I would start with this section for more info on why anyone would play Vintage. There's a lot of good discussion going on there. Stephen Menendian is considered the foremost historian on Vintage and is one of the best players in the world. A quick Google search can yield a lot of ideas on what the format is about. This article is a bit dated, but most of the ideas are still relevant.
November 13, 2013 9:06 p.m.
Hah, I don't think animals that urinate on themselves are ever publicly shamed... all the other animals are just like, "Whatever, Bob urinated on himself again."
Nature, man. It's all like... weird.
November 13, 2013 9:09 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #20
sylvannos, hmmm... I actually never knew that there was a restricted list in vintage. My understanding of it was that it was the equivalent of jungle ball in grade school. I have watched a few games at my shop, and I was a little unimpressed. It almost looked like a "who's combo dick is bigger" type thing. But then, that was quite a few years ago, and you say that combo is out... So I will take your word for it. I don't play vintage not because I cannot afford it, it most definitely would be difficult to acquire my dream deck, but I could still get it together in my lifetime. I don't play it because of the lack of a player base, locally, for one. And for two, my experiences watching several games. It just didn't seem very fun to win out of nowhere.
One could argue that combo-ing out can happen in legacy and modern, but it's not that often. And WotC seems to not let crazy combos stay for too long. Granted, the banned list in those formats is based on popularity.
I guess what I was "colorfully" trying to say, is that it seems really boring.
November 13, 2013 9:43 p.m.
legacy has everything, the variety is so great versus something like standard where you expect esper, mbc, mbd, g/r monsters, naya control/midrange
ANT, Epic Storm, Sneak and Show, Omni Tell, MUD, Affinity, UB Tezzeret, Reanimator, Goblins, Belcher, Merfolk, Esper Stone Blade, Death and Taxes, Death Blade, Shardless BUG, BUG Control, UW Miracles, UR/RUG/UWR Delver, Oops All Spells, Jund, Punishing this and that, Maverick, Dredge and all the variants i didnt list, and any given week they can be a top 8 deck.
I like that chance for variety being a lot higher and you can literally play anything and have a chance to do good if you know how to play the deck and what to expect. note ive never played legacy in a large tournament but hope to attend SCG Open in NJ in feburary
November 13, 2013 9:53 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #22
Best of luck to you mckin. Legacy is a blast for the exact reasons you listed.
November 13, 2013 10:01 p.m.
@gnarlicide: Yup. There's a large Restricted List for a reason. Having four copies of Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall would just be dumb lol. Regrowth and Gush were just unrestricted not too long ago. The other card up for consideration is Thirst for Knowledge , but Mana Drain -based control would just get stronger, so it may not help Goblin Welder make the resurgence WotC would want to see.
Honestly, Vintage is probably slower than Legacy just because of how much hate exists in the format. The large number of tutors along with fast mana means more answers are available to each player.
November 13, 2013 10:05 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #24
I could see how mana drain control would get crazy. I remember that card well.
Crazy though, I never knew that there was a serious restricted list. Kind of makes it feel less "douche baggy". Lol.
November 13, 2013 10:16 p.m.
I have never heard of ANT in Legacy. Can someone link a decklist here possibly so I can check it out?
November 13, 2013 11:41 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #26
Here is some information on ANT.
It's an acronym for Ad Nauseum Tendrils.
November 13, 2013 11:44 p.m.
I love legacy because I can take a card I like, and build around it in legacy and make it work far better than I could in any other format. Winning with a Drogskol Reaver equipped with a Sword of War and Peace and Empyrial Plate is just too damn satisfying, especially when someone is sitting at 200 odd life thinking they're safe from my deck. Legacy gives me the library of cards I need to drag the game out long enough to do what I want. I took a few casual decks and built them with legacy in mind, and while they don't always take first, they do pretty damn well, and I love legacy for that. Legacy translate into casual for me in a lot of ways.
Vintage however I can not comment anything about it.
November 14, 2013 12:21 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #29
Legacy has such a vast card pool to choose from. The plethera of possibilities is astounding. Many cards like the original dual lands, Bob, Goyf, FoW, etc. are a bit salty, but one can still make a Legacy deck on a semi budget. I run RDW and a Mono Green 12 Post, currently.
Someone mentioned that ANT is a difficult deck to pilot. I would add that Dredge, especially the mana less version I've seen, is tricky to pilot as well.
November 14, 2013 5:58 a.m.
gnarlicide says... #30
Yeah dredge takes a degree of skill. I played it in legacy for a while, and like delver, it's like playing Russian roulette. Mana less dredge seems too crazy for my liking. Something about "no land" seems insane and goes against everything I have ever learned about magic throughout the last 18 or 19 years.
November 14, 2013 6:43 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #31
It's like playing russian roulette against a werewolf with 5 normal bullets and a single silver one.
November 14, 2013 6:57 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #33
Correctly setting up Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top has actually been the hardest thing to do correctly in Legacy for me because it's like playing chess without actually knowing what pieces your opponent has. But flipping your top card to counter a Batterskull without spinning the top to make sure that you have the right card on top feels like taking a bath in your opponent's tears of sorrow.... mmmmmm delightful.
November 14, 2013 11:02 a.m.
i think hte most attractive part to miracles, is having a miracle terminus whenever you want lol
i love watching top + counterbalance work together with all the 1 ofs in the deck
November 14, 2013 11:58 a.m.
I would like to play vintage for the same reason I play legacy. I like playing with the old cards more than I do the new cards. I have to say sylvannos hit it on the head about vintage.
I have my tier 1 deck for legacy, but there are times where I want to play 4 Hymn to Tourach
, Dark Ritual
, Will-o'-the-Wisp
, Drain Life
, Hypnotic Specter
with one Demonic Tutor
and some U in Counterspell
, Force of Will
. Something I used to play way back in the day when this was "standard".
These are the same reasons I play EDH, to play with the old cards. The new cards are fun, good, but they don't have my heart like the old ones. Why, because that's where I fell in love with this game.
November 14, 2013 12:13 p.m.
Hallowed_Titan says... #36
I enjoy all formats. Only ever played casual. My 2 LGS only offer standard and edh, so I never go to them. And I don't have the wallet to play competitive magic anyway.
November 14, 2013 3:42 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #37
gnarlicide, the mana less Dredge deck is quite interesting. Here's a primer on the deck:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=340079
Vintage interests me due to the power level and nostalgia of the old cards, much of why I play Legacy. Since I don't have a tree in my backyard on which money grows, I'd like to find some good proxies of the Power Nine and such. Anyone have any good leads on this?
November 15, 2013 3:52 a.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #38
I play Legacy for a multitude of reasons:
- Legacy decks are often the most interesting and creative ones.
- The card pool is huge and offers a great amount of variety.
- Most of the hopelessly broken cards from vintage are banned.
- Cards don't lose their usefulness due to rotation as in standard.
- Card draw and searching is not as crippled as in modern.
- It's easier to find enough similar cards for coherent decks (tribal decks, etc.).
- My darling Baleful Strix is legal.
Also, if you flinch from playing legacy because of your wallet, then the format isn't for you anyway. Not because you're lacking money, but because you're lacking inventiveness. My apologies if you feel offended by that statement. It's still true, though.
There are so many cheap cards that you can easily build cheap and strong decks. If you find yourself paying a thousand dollars for a deck, then it's probably because your cards are used in popular builds (or you're wasting money on lands that are not as important as they seem). And the greatest appeal of legacy is the potential for variation and individuality, the joy of building and playing against interesting, creative and unique decks. If you just want to play a popular build that has proven to be superior in earlier tournaments, you're probably better off sticking with modern.
One last word about manabases... Don't pay for the old double lands, they're overrated. The (still quite expensive, but manageable) shockland/innistrad tapland approach is just as effective.
If money is really tight, Amulet of Vigor is your best friend. Any 10 ct tapland is as effective as the expensive lands once you get one out. And that's not the only way to avoid expensive lands. Or just build a monocolored deck, those are not as limited as they were before hybrid mana was introduced.
November 15, 2013 10:20 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver There are two main ways I would consider proxying the power 9. 1. print up the card and throw it in a sleeve with a regular card. from here ... The quality is dependent on your printer.
The other is to get a collectors edition and use those. The C.E. is expensivish (1500 for the whole set), Singles can be found on the market. The square corners and gold borders can be hidden in sleeves and work well for proxies.
November 15, 2013 10:23 a.m.
Wizard of the Damned says... #40
Decks such as legacy RDW are quite strong while still relatively cheap. Gruul could be a great cheap deck if made correctly (no Tarmogoyf unfortunately if budget) so even if coin is tight, basics can be used and very few spells (barring Goblin Guide if used and Chain Lightning
November 15, 2013 10:33 a.m.
If you're playing RDW without Chain Lightning you're not playing RDW :( (ok, I just love the card that much, fond memories of it in multiplayer games (b.c.e., before commander era) with Blood Moon and the whole table just blasting each other into oblivion because we could).
November 15, 2013 12:17 p.m.
Legacy RDW is still really inexpensive, though, even with Chain Lightning . I think the next expensive card is Goblin Guide , followed by Figure of Destiny . Of course, you can play Wasteland , but it's not as essential.
I've seen it make top 8 at SCG opens on a pretty consistent basis. Usually, the total value of the deck is under $100. Not bad for a $3,000 format.
November 15, 2013 6:20 p.m.
I enjoy Legacy because of the mental challenge it gives me. It also just feels nice playing with old cards. I could probably get into modern if I wanted to but I just never got to it.
I enjoy Vintage because once again the mental challenge it gives me. I get to do what the game allows me to do without any real restrictions. It is really unfortunate how much vintage is misunderstood as a format where games only last 2 turns. Those games are actually kind of rare and you can have some really fun and interactive games. It's one of those formats where you actually have to play to like.
November 17, 2013 9:39 a.m.
I also like playing with weird cards like Slash Panther , Yixlid Jailer , and Accumulated Knowledge which are unplayable or barely playable in other formats but are playable (or used to be) in the format with the highest power level.
November 17, 2013 9:45 a.m.
Pox bro! You forgot Pox! And Zoo! I actually just started playing Legacy this week, after being a devoted competitive Standard player, and I must say, it's the most fun I've ever had in Magic. I like it because every single play is relevant. Every decision is hard come by, because EVERY play matters. What land you play, what phase or step you play it in, which spells you pitch to force, whether or not you attack, which cards you discard....one single misplay can easily and often cost you the whole game. The high cost associated with Legacy inherently makes it a non-casual format, but it CAN be played casually if you use proxies, but even still, you HAVE to play to win. Legacy is REAL Magic
mafteechr says... #2
I strictly play Legacy. It is the format where each of the cornerstone archetypes (aggro, control, combo) are present, plentiful, and viable. Personally, I'm a combo player, and that is nonexistent in Standard and restricted in Modern. Additionally, it allows me to play super fun old cards, like High Tide or Metalworker .
November 13, 2013 7:39 p.m.