What is Gruul to you?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Feb. 27, 2023, 12:32 a.m. by AGGENZ
In your opinion what is the identity of Gruul? What does it do better than any other colors? Going forward what kind of design space would you like to see explored that would belong in Gruul?
SteelSentry says... #3
The other thing I would attribute to Gruul is anti-creature hate. Besides punisher cards like Cindervines, it is the color pair of "can't be countered" threats.
February 27, 2023 1:45 a.m.
Big, aggressive mana into big, aggressive creatures, like TypicalTimmy said. Anti-hate and forcing effects through, like SteelSentry said, to which I would add that Gruul is good at punishing stall and non-combat effects (Burning-Tree Shaman, Mage Slayer, etc.)
It doesn't have especially deep combo potential, with something like Nature's Will/Bear Umbra + Aggravated Assault/Hellkite Charger, or something with Scapeshift, being more or less the standard. Control is possible, with a good suite of damage-based creature removal, a huge variety of targeted and mass artifact and enchantment destruction, and targeted land destruction, but the win condition will generally come back to big creatures or damage over time. It can't set any hard locks, but it can find a way to punish an opponent for doing just about anything, even tapping or not tapping lands, even if it's not for mana.
I'd like to see more trickery from the color pair. Red has a very good selection of redirection and randomization effects, and green is good at maximizing its resources, through ramp, draw, and recursion. I can imagine a commander that's all about changing the battlefield and rules, messing up everyone else's strategy while accumulating resources and opportunities. Something that The Great Aurora and Warp World, for example, can fit into.
February 27, 2023 2:52 a.m.
As another thought, first strike is a primary ability in , and deathtouch is primary in . Surely there's something that can be done with that.
February 27, 2023 3:11 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #6
Spellbreaker Behemoth comes to mind for both big creatures and anti-creature hate.
February 27, 2023 3:15 a.m.
griffstick says... #8
Gruul to me is attacking with tall trampling creatures with reckless abandon to destroy your opponent/s with combat damage companied with indirect damage like Terror of the Peaks or Vicious Shadows
February 27, 2023 10:33 a.m.
griffstick says... #9
Grull cards that scream gruul to me are
Creatures
- Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
- Borborygmos Enraged
- Omnath, Locus of Rage
- Xenagos, God of Revels
- Gruul Ragebeast
- Rubblehulk
- Mina and Denn, Wildborn
- Halana and Alena, Partners
Enchantment / artifact
The rest
- Xenagos, the Reveler
- Klauth's Will
- Destructive Revelry
- Decimate
- Hull Breach
- Contested Cliffs
- Kessig Wolf Run
These are the most "gruul" cards with both red and green (only red and green) in it, in my opinion.
February 27, 2023 11:35 a.m.
FormOverFunction says... #10
As a fool for flavor, Gruul War Plow is peak for me.
February 27, 2023 12:17 p.m.
Currently Gruul is thought of only by its' brutish Ravnica origin & there is alot of missed opportunity there, as about all the other color pairings have branched out since Strixhaven. I think of Klauth, Unrivaled Ancient currently as representative of Gruul.
Some good ideas for future direction of Gruul.
1) I would love to see some bomb redirect effects in Gruul... Ward "copy & retarget a spell"? Maybe a Grip of Chaos commander that spawned redirect targets for the table? Maybe replacing instances of creature destruction, sac, exile into artifact & enchantment somehow?
2) Gruul could fill a unique space of group-gifting & hug-into-slug for anti control decks. Playing with fire by making the table difficult to control. Think of the unique way that Oath of Druids floods the table with creatures until spellslingers are left pulling their hair, maybe add a little incentive to slap players that can't hang. So now you are combined punishing artifact/enchantment heavy decks, while gifting their opponents. Also, Heartwood Storyteller does this in an unusual way, making the table benefit from playing your game while also causing an out-of-control boardstate. I have great love for Kibo, Uktabi Prince in this sortof hug-into-slug design space.
3) Seems like alot of opportunity to "control" a game direction by making it more difficult for any one player to actually control things, while promoting a "come at me bro" attitude with permanents. I've done this type of play pattern before, there just isn't a ton of feasible support for it yet & it seems like would be the right home for it.
February 27, 2023 7:58 p.m.
It feels like there's a difference between what does and what + can do. gets pigeonholed into smashification, while + has more potential. I would be surprised to see a multicolor red/green card that prevented lands from being played or destroyed them, but that's an option in red + green.
Same with that first strike-deathtouch line I mentioned; every multicolored green card with deathtouch also has either black or blue, but never red, and there are almost as many red/blue/whatever cards with first strike (8) as red/green/whatever (9).
The land destruction thing I can understand as being too oppressive to print, but what's wrong with deathstrike?
February 27, 2023 10:30 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #14
It's the epitome of defense. A deathstrike blocker is the ultimate blocker, and should not be the color of ultimate blocking. Deathtouch/Trample is the more Gruul way if you're going to deathtouch, I'd say.
February 27, 2023 11:21 p.m.
plakjekaas That's kind of my point. If you take something that's (first strike) and something that's (deathtouch), and you mash them together, you end up with something that's closer to , and that strikes me as awkward. + =/= .
February 27, 2023 11:54 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #16
You asked what’s wrong with deathstrike. The guy answered and you respond with that’s my point. But you never made a point against it, you were advocating for it.
The problem with “deathstrike” as you dubbed it, is that there’s exactly 1 card in mono-red that has deathtouch, Toxic Iguanar. Red does NOT get access to deathtouch very often, and it always requires another color.
February 28, 2023 12:07 a.m.
If I could describe Gruul in one card it would be Ghor-Clan Rampager.
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Beefy beater threat.
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Aggressively costed.
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Trample as its form of "evasion."
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Combat trick utility.
I know colors facilitate other strategies but to me it always makes me think of a creature based aggro deck... simple and effective and I love it and always find myself coming back to these colors/strategy for one reason or another.
February 28, 2023 12:13 a.m.
I think I'm not explaining myself well.
My central thought is that + does not equal . Red might not get deathtouch, but green has full access to it. Why should a red/green card not get deathtouch simply because red doesn't get deathtouch?
White doesn't get deathtouch either, but Arvad the Cursed, Spiteful Squad, Wintermoor Commander, and others have deathtouch. This can only be provided by the requirement.
doesn't get first strike. Sky Spirit, Leap of Flame, Deft Duelist, and others all have first strike provided by their other colors.
Ergo, a color can provide one of its abilities to a card, even if another color can't.
can provide first strike to a card, even a card, with Neheb, the Worthy, Stromkirk Captain, and Halana and Alena, Partners.
can provide deathtouch to a card, as shown by Needlethorn Drake, Winged Coatl, and Venomthrope.
So why is unable to provide deathtouch to (and ) cards? Is somehow better at removal than these colors?
I promise I'm not asking these questions rhetorically, or in anger. I genuinely don't fully understand. And as I was writing this response, I realize my position hearkens back to GDS3 and the infamous flying vigilance question. To which I respond that since that question was asked, Warrant / Warden was printed, and still no vigilant flyer.
And I think I've derailed this enough. If anyone wants to help me out, start another thread and I'll respond. With my apologies, let's get this back to the many faces of Gruul in Commander.
February 28, 2023 12:36 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #19
I suppose poison is not a weapon of passion (red), but of calculated plotting (black) or self defense in nature (green), making red somehow more anti-deathtouch by philosophy than green can supply reason to give deathtouch.
As any chef will tell you, there actually is more to flavor than just the sum of its parts '^^
To rail it back on topic, Gruul's flavor is to destroy stuff not by being sneaky, but by being bigger, more ferocious and more powerful than whatever's in their way. The Bloodthirst mechanic (Skarrgan Skybreaker) fits the color pair wonderfully for that reason.
February 28, 2023 1:06 a.m.
I still think should be the color pair of Overabundance style play. They should explore more cards that flood the table, but somehow reward Timmie-play while punishing little setup engines. Make the whole table push right past setup. Also, destroy those artifacts & enchantments. Good ole' Rampage of the Clans
February 28, 2023 8:32 a.m.
Deathstrike would be fine & all, but it wouldn't really broaden any horizons for the color pair. To be thoroughly Gruul it would probably need some cool ability for if you connect with combat dmg... Maybe something that Oath of Druids'd the entire table, or made everyone sac an artifact or enchantment & get a centaur in its' place :)
February 28, 2023 8:35 a.m.
I dislike that they tried to go with impulse/exile-&-play as their "new direction". Such a fail IMO, when you have Prosper, Tome-Bound already doing that way better in a color pair that is way better for it. That is dunderhead, lack of creativity in a color pair that has been a bit of a red-headed stepchild for game design.... Even gets more attempts at true creativity, & that is saying something.
February 28, 2023 8:39 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #23
My current favourite commander deck is a Gruul deck that doesn't feel Gruul at all, it does dive into the punishing side of the color pie. Klothys, Bringing Destiny is a Gruul Enchantress deck that's exceptionally great at punishing greedy mana bases, both with lots of pain for using nonbasic lands, and plenty cheap artifact hate to remove rocks and treasures. The: "Why are you hitting yourself"-vibes are amazing, and the only reason Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is not in there, is because it plays 45 noncreature spells itself '^^
February 28, 2023 11:20 a.m.
plakjekaas. Klothys, God of Destiny was actually one I was thinking of for breaking the mold of the usual Gruul-faire a little bit & yes, she lends herself to MLD & such more than alot of people like, but she is pretty decent to build a punisher deck as well. Meria, Scholar of Antiquity was another... Though, personally I think she is a little too Urzatastic & really not feeling, also she (Meria) isn't all that unique if you were to bring what she is outside of the color pair. The Gruul Ice-troll guy from Kaldheim is pretty neat as well, though he is more generic Timmie-ramp & less bringing Gruul in a new direction. I have seen someone build Faldorn, Dread Wolf Herald to be a pretty kickass polymorph subtheme deck, but again, when you actually lean into that "play from exile" theme, it feels pretty lackluster in Gruul vs. Rakdos.
February 28, 2023 3:56 p.m.
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March 9, 2023 8 p.m.
If an admin sees this, can we please get a review for off-topic spamming here?
TypicalTimmy says... #2
Gruul wants to attack each and every combat, pushing out as much combat damage as possible. They achieve this through synergy, where things such as enchantments, tribal lords and combat tricks all tie together to maximize the output of damage.
Using greens ramp, and reds fast card advantage, you aim to quickly overwhelm any boardstate.
Your goal, ultimately, is to overpower all other resources. Yes your opponent may have 7 counter spells, 5 targeted removal and 2 wraths but when 1/2 of your deck is mana whether it is lands, dorks or rocks and the other 1/2 is one threatening bomb after another, you inevitably exhaust their 14 spells that can handle it.
Essentially you don't care what lands on the battlefield, only that it does. You don't worry about being set back two or three turns with a Cyclonic Rift or a Wrath of God because you know that not only does your deck have more creatures then most other decks, and sometimes even your entire table combined, you know that your damage potential could literally one-shot the board in excess.
Your wincon is combat damage. Anything else is secondary.
I'd love to see this type of question become a forum, where resident experts in their preferred color schemes come forward to talk about them :)
February 27, 2023 1:13 a.m. Edited.