Toxic Relationship: Hapatra EDH [PRIMER]

Commander / EDH Daedalus19876

SCORE: 708 | 807 COMMENTS | 121375 VIEWS | IN 306 FOLDERS


Temporary changes for GP! —Feb. 25, 2019

I'm loaning this deck to someone for the GP, and with that in mind we're making some changes to push this deck a bit further back towards combo. We'll see which of these changes stick, though the Bayou is on loan and definitely will not be remaining.

Daedalus19876 says... #1

OptimalGreen: Art's better on Chrome Mox IMO. I prefer pack foil for the Lightning Greaves ;)

December 10, 2018 9:08 p.m.

goldlion says... #2

So true, Daedalus19876. The value of one card is determined by the value of 3-4 others and taking one of those out starts to make the other(s) more useless. When a deck gets this tuned in synergy, it's hard for an outside to know. Or hard for you to know if 4 out and 4 in would make it a little better or not.

December 10, 2018 10:08 p.m.

BlueAutomatic says... #3

Have you considered the card Cinderhaze Wretch? I run it in my list as a backup Devoted Druid. Even though it’s strictly worse in pretty much every situation, Devoted Druid is such an integral combo piece that it’s nice to have a backup in the deck in case it gets exiled or I don’t have any reanimator effects in hand.

December 11, 2018 12:57 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #4

BlueAutomatic: I have, but...I run enough tutors to usually find reanimation or a different combo? Long story short, Cinderhaze Wretch is on my list of cards I want to add but not at the top of that list.

December 11, 2018 1:34 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #5

goldlion: I tested Cryptolith Rite and it didn't do as much as I wanted (since it does not have the same immediacy of Earthcraft, the times I needed the mana were when I had to rebuild after a board wipe, where it specifically could not help). Guess that one's staying out for the moment!

December 12, 2018 1:54 p.m.

OptimalGreen says... #6

So I was looking through my Modern binder for extra fetches to put into this and turns out I have extras of everything listed except Polluted Delta but I do have an extra Verdant Catacombs lol. I got a set in a trade last year from a dude for like all of Modern Merfolk

December 15, 2018 3:05 p.m.

killbobbuilder says... #7

Just wanted to say that I love the deck! Also I was wondering if you had thought of putting Toxic Deluge in somewhere? I feel like it would be a good addition to the deck.

December 16, 2018 9:53 p.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #8

killbobbuilder: Thanks for the suggestion, and I'm glad you like the deck! I've considered it? But honestly, the deck runs a lot of things with low-toughness, and really needs to keep its creatures on the battlefield to execute its plans... so for now, I don't think it fits well. Remember that it doesn't count as -1 counter placement :)

December 16, 2018 10:51 p.m.

cleandeceit says... #9

I love your build of this deck and I reference this list often for ideas as I have a very similar hapatra build of my own. I see that since I was last here you added a couple more lands which I think was a solid choice. I was looking at my own deck and thinking about revisions as well as what to remove. Making choices on what to cut is always difficult so I thought Id share my ideas because I have only benefited from you sharing yours.

Driven - I am looking at cutting this card mainly because it's too conditional. It really only benefits me when I have a wide army to swing with. Getting in with one unblocked creature for one card draw is fine, but I think we can do better. This is just one of those cards that doesnt help us at all in a vacuum. Its a "win-more" sort of card, and when my board is empty is when I am most likely to need that hand refill, which this card does not provide.
Deathreap Ritual - Same as before, the card draw is conditional. Yes creatures die often, but do they die enough to justify the 4 cmc? Many times I face decks with creatures that are protected from destruction. I see a lot more exile and bounce. Even on a board wipe, this card doesn't draw for each death, just one no matter the count. I do have sac outlets in my deck (even more than you have in your current list) but I dont see it happening enough to really justify the slot for deathreap.
Defense of the Heart - This was a tough one because it's effect is so powerful. But really, it's an effect players can see coming from a mile away. When this enchantment is on the table, players will either kill it or just not play creatures. Waiting for the upkeep trigger is never a good thing for obvious reasons. I dont know how often you get to benefit from this card but I rarely get to see it go off.

December 20, 2018 11:57 a.m. Edited.

Daedalus19876 says... #10

cleandeceit: Thanks, I'm so glad this has been helpful! Regarding your suggestions...

Driven / Despair is a newer addition, so it may well come out if it doesn't perform well (haven't had a chance to test it yet). But I feel like both halves of it would be helpful here, and I feel like the ceiling on the card is very powerful (especially since I usually have 3+ Snakes sitting around).

Deathreap Ritual has been passable, honestly? It's one of the potential cuts here, I think, but I would want to replace it with other draw - any suggestions for what would be better?

Defense of the Heart often does eat removal, true, but that's less removal for my other wincons. I'm comfortable baiting removal with it, and it often manages to lock opponents out of playing their creatures if they can't find removal (not to mention times where I play it after someone already has 3). It's pulled its weight when I've drawn it.

Thanks for your thoughts! Is there anything important you feel I'm missing?

December 20, 2018 11:19 p.m.

cleandeceit says... #11

Well as far as additions are concerned, I dont know if I have what you are looking for, but here are a few cards I can make a strong argument for.

Read the Bones - Not the same ceiling as a card like Driven, but definitely a higher floor. I dont know how fast your metta is, but if you are like me, when you want to draw cards, you want to draw cards now and not sit around waiting for upkeep or other conditions to be met. I think of Read the bones as a better version of Harmonize. I know for sure it deserves a spot in your 99 more than Deathreap Ritual and I would argue it more valuable than Phyrexian Arena too. With a 2 cmc commander, you do often have 7 cards in hand on turn 3, so casting Read the Bones on curve might not be that desirable, but if you are in a pinch, I feel it's still worth it to bin one card in order to get whatever peace you need. If you haven't used this card before, run some playtests with it, I am never disappointed to have Read the Bones in hand.

Mask of Memory or Skeleton Key - I personally haven't tried these two out yet but I was strongly considering them for the synergy with Archfiend of Ifnir. I was thinking that equipping the Mask to a snake would be a good way have the opponent not block, but that plan might not always work. The Key is a little more likely to connect could possibly help Hapatra get in but I'm not sure its worth it. Along the same line you could also consider Keen Sense or the slightly worse Sixth Sense. Warriors' Lesson is interesting in that you could use it on your opponents creatures.

Memory Jar and Bazaar of Baghdad both have synergy with Archfiend of Ifnir again but are useful all by themselves. And if you are going to be discarding more often why not think about Skeletal Scrying (which is also helpful with all those fetchlands you have).

In my own list I also run Whispersilk Cloak just for Hapatra but that doesn't have anything to do with card draw.

Underrealm Lich and Izoni, Thousand-Eyed are higher on the mana dump but either one is worth considering and obviously they work well together. I know these two suggestions are kinda out there at first glance, but I think if you really consider their potential, they have value. It may require to much of a direction change for the deck right now, but good to keep these cards in mind.

Concordant Crossroads - This is another card I'm surprised you dont run already. When your combo lands endless tokens, this can be a finisher for one mana.

Viridian Corrupter - Because we tutor for creatures so often, I feel like this dude is worth including. If there is an artifact you really need to take out, why not overlap with some infect potential? Every deck has artifacts in it and no one wants to start taking poison counters, especially when they know you can proliferate, but that's just the threat, the real value is in the snakes he nets you when they block or attack (and they will attack if you are blowing up their nice things).

Fauna Shaman - the budget version of Survival of the Fittest, why not run both? More tutor means more combo and more discard means more synergy for the Archfiend of Ifnir as well as other cards I mentioned like Skeletal Scrying or Izoni, Thousand-Eyed.

Vedalken Orrery - Now I know this can be less helpful in the faster metta, but if you have the time to deploy it, it is very powerful. Many of the combos in your deck are creature baised, this protects them. It also helps set up that "Defense of the Heart.

Bear Umbra - I dont know if you are in the market for more ramp but I like the idea of keeping Hapatra on the table as long as possible. And because the untap trigger doesn't require you to deal damage I would argue this is even better than Sword of Feast and Famine.

Viridian Longbow - this one I wanted to throw in just for fun. It basically gives you another Ulvenwald Tracker tracker effect and could be very useful.

Well I bet you have considered many of these cards already but sometimes the value of a card can change from the first time we see it. Sometimes its helpful to go back with a fresh perspective and decide if now is the time to shake things up. I hope my ideas here are useful, even if the cards I listed dont make it into your deck, it may help you get those brewer's juices flowing for your own ideas and help make sure the deck keeps evolving the way you want it to. I know I'll be coming back to see what updates you have in the future. Maybe Ravnica Alliance will give us something spicy :)

December 21, 2018 1:19 p.m.

OptimalGreen says... #12

I mean this deck isn't graveyard based so Underrealm Lich isn't a great pick. That card was specifically made for graveyard based strategies like Meren or Muldrotha. Vraska does what Izoni does for less mana although she can be attacked but usually the only thing going for her are flyers because if you have enough snakes no one will swing at her.

Memory Jar and Bazaar seem far too excessive even though they create multiple triggers for Archfiend and thus Hapatra. Really ditching two cards with Survival is more than enough to give you an amount of snakes to where you can than stomp your opponents with Craterhoof and Triumph of the Hordes. Also Bazaar is $1200+ and dropping that kind of dosh on a commander that's not even competitive seems like a bad financial decision to me.

Fauna Shaman might be neat but the deck runs 18 creatures so she might also be redundant. I use her in Ruric Thar but Ruric Thar decks use a lot more creatures even land destruction ones. Also her being an elf is a bonus for Priest of Titania. Still might be neat.

Concordant Crossroads could be cool for Earthcraft + Squirrel's Nest but I feel like that might be a bit narrow. Usually when you're spawning infinite snakes your doing Blood Artist shenanigans. Also I feel like a consistent source of card draw is more valuable in this deck than a one and done deal.

Don't know about the rest but I thought I'd comment on those ones.

December 21, 2018 9:04 p.m.

OptimalGreen says... #13

Also I've been looking at other G/B/x lists and a good chunk run Ad Nauseam for card draw but with a cmc of 2.8 it might be tougher but I still think it's something to consider especially since we have access to Sylvan Library which could let us stack our deck with a few lands to draw for free with it.

December 22, 2018 8:23 a.m.

OptimalGreen says... #14

Forgot to add that since you've seemed not so happy with Ifnir Deadlands why not replace it with Phyrexian Tower? Saccing a snake, insect, or squirrel for two black mana sounds pretty good. It just got reprinted so now would be the time to strike. Could also sacc creatures like Eternal Witness, Soul Snuffers, or Channeler Initiate that have already done their jobs.

December 22, 2018 11:17 a.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #15

cleandeceit, OptimalGreen: whistle A lot to respond to here! Going through in order...

Read the Bones: Honestly, the place I need card draw in this deck is to rebuild after getting my board wiped, which is why I've emphasized permanents that provide consistent card draw rather than one-time effects. I have enough tutors in this deck that I rarely feel starved for cards.

Mask of Memory: Could be a very good idea! I'll test it here, I've loved it in several other decks. Not a fan of Skeleton Key or the auras - the former is just generally a bad card IMO, and when using the auras it's dangerously easy to get 2-for-1'd.

Memory Jar: Pass, far too slow. It's a powerful card, but this is the wrong deck for it (Memory Jar works better in a deck with a huge number of 0 and 1 drops).

Bazaar of Baghdad: Yeah, no, not gonna pay that price tag. Not to mention that the deck isn't GY-focused enough to mitigate the card-negative aspect.

Skeletal Scrying: I think you're emphasizing the role of discard effects in this deck way too much. The deck doesn't put much in GY, and I don't like paying 1 mana per cards, especially with a highly conditional effect. I concur with OptimalGreen on this.

Whispersilk Cloak: Can be a good card in the right circumstance, and I've had it in this deck at certain points, but my current meta has more mass removal than spot removal. Probably won't help much at the moment.

Underrealm Lich and Izoni, Thousand-Eyed: I'm... not sure how either of these helps, at all? Neither does anything for my deck's goals, and they drive my curve into the stratosphere. Not a fan of such conditional, low-impact card draw.

Concordant Crossroads: I've considered it. But with my combos, Obelisk Spider or Blood Artist usually fulfill the same "win instantly" role, and are much easier to tutor for with my creature-specific green tutors. Note that this does NOT help with the Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest combo.

Viridian Corrupter: Another card that's been in and out at certain points. While the fact that he can't hit enchantments is a problem, the bigger issue is that people almost never attack me in this deck, unless they have flying (expendable, deathtouching snakes are a wonderful deterrent for attacks).

Fauna Shaman: Nah. Not repeatable, suffers from summoning sickness, dies to creature wipes and a couple global -1 counter placements.

Vedalken Orrery: I really do not like this card, honestly, especially since I need to cast certain spells before or after combat in this deck. People think it's good, but it just draws hate and gives little actual advantage. I'd rather run protective spells like Golgari Charm and Heroic Intervention.

Bear Umbra: I like the protection and discard much better on Sword of Feast and Famine, not to mention the fact that it sticks around after the creature dies.

Viridian Longbow: Heh. That's amusing, and I'm tempted to find a slot. I'd cut Ulvenwald Tracker for it, but that lowers my creature count even further for Survival of the Fittest...

Ad Nauseam: The issue here is that this deck has a lot of very high-cost spells that are meant to be cheated onto the battlefield (such as Craterhoof Behemoth). Ad Nauseam is best for decks with huge numbers of 0-drop spells, and I don't want to pay an average of 2.5 life per card, alas :/

Phyrexian Tower: I have considered this actually. Jury's out on whether Ifnir Deadlands is good enough - it's been intermittent, not bad - but the honestly bigger problem is that I hate the newer art on it.

Thank you both for your thoughts!

December 22, 2018 4:06 p.m.

OptimalGreen says... #16

That's what I was fearing with Ad Nauseam because the absolute highest I saw was 2.1. Still I think Phyrexian Tower could be a cool addition and I think I'm gonna give it a try. Also I think the OG art has dropped a good amount with the reprint. Somewhere around $35 now. Still I'm perfectly fine with the new art because can't argue with a $10 price tag.

December 22, 2018 4:41 p.m.

cleandeceit says... #17

Mmm, yeah I see where you guys are coming from. Well what about Smothering Abomination alongside a few more sac outlets?
I am a fan of Phyrexian Altar.

December 22, 2018 9:07 p.m.

OptimalGreen says... #18

Did you see Bankrupt in Blood? Two mana and two snakes to draw three cards might be neat.

January 4, 2019 11:16 a.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #19

cleandeceit: I've considered it! But I'd run Ashnod's Altar before I'd run Phyrexian Altar in this list, and that's been in and out for a while.

OptimalGreen: I did! I'm thinking on it :)

January 4, 2019 12:48 p.m.

OptimalGreen says... #20

It's a one and done type draw card but also it has Seb Mckinnon art like Archfiend of Ifnir so I love it on art alone.

January 4, 2019 7:38 p.m.

TheMaelstrom says... #21

Couple cards that I'm just wondering if they've been pulling their weight: [Fume spitter] i get it, with [earthcraft] out it is free, but it does so little! It's a card that didn't do much and seems like your favorite use would always be to bin it with [survival of the fittest] [Eternal witness] - [regrowth] on a body just because of [survival of the fittest] too? You keep mentioning it's not a graveyard deck then you have this card which in my meta with a lot of cards like [rest in peace] may do nothing. [Reanimate] - similar to the above card may just not be good in my meta but what do you normally do with it? I guess if [craterhoof behemoth] gets countered?

Amazing deck, I have my own that I have been working on since spoiler but I haven't been updating it since muldrotha baha

January 6, 2019 9:27 a.m.

TheMaelstrom says... #22

Sorry, wrote that on my phone and didn't recognize my mistake. Fume Spitter, Earthcraft, Survival of the Fittest, Eternal Witness, Regrowth, Reanimate, Craterhoof Behemoth

January 6, 2019 10:05 a.m.

Daedalus19876 says... #23

TheMaelstrom: Fume Spitter definitely pulls its weight in my experience; it can come down before Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons and place -1 counters at instant speed (which is surprisingly relevant).

Eternal Witness is better than Regrowth here because it can have -1 counters placed on it, it can be reanimated by Meren of Clan Nel Toth etc, and it can be searched for by all of my creature tutors.

This deck is not primarily a graveyard deck, but cards like Reanimate are extremely useful in my experience: not only can they recur cards like Craterhoof Behemoth if countered/destroyed, but they can also recur Hapatra herself without the need to pay commander tax.

Hope that helps explain my reasoning!

January 6, 2019 11:46 a.m.

OptimalGreen says... #24

Eternal Witness is a green staple for a reason. You don't have to be a graveyard deck to run it. I mean Captain Sisay runs it. Reanimate is also great for letting Hapatra die on occasion and bringing her back for 1 mana and 2 life because sometimes whether you like it or not she will die.

January 7, 2019 8:37 a.m.

OptimalGreen says... #25

I know what it's primary use is but are there some combo shenanigans with Viridian Longbow ?

Hapatra or Nest of Scarabs + Lightning Greaves + Viridian Longbow + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Devoted Druid for infinite damage?

January 24, 2019 1:12 a.m.