Lithoform Enginge: Not Broken, Definitely Too Strong
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Sept. 8, 2020, 11:19 p.m. by ZendikariWol
I hate that Lithoform Engine goes into 80% of EDH decks below power level 8. It's so stupidly universal, why not put it in? Does your commander have an activated ability or care about instants, sorceries, tokens, or generating value by doubling your spells? Congratulations, you account for roughly 90% of the commander format.
This card would slot very comfortably into five of my seven paper decks (Roon of the Hidden Realm, Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, Ezuri, Claw of Progress, Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge, with Chainer, Nightmare Adept
, and Korvold, Fae-Cursed King being the exceptions). It slots comfortably into four out of my best friend's four decks (Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, Meren of Clan Nel Toth, The Ur-Dragon, and Olivia Voldaren).
This card is not nutso bonkers silly powerful. It is, however, so versatile that as long as your deck can spend 4 mana on an artifact that does nothing immediately (which most EDH decks can at some point in the game), you should probably be running this card. I don't like cards like this at all. The strokes it paints in are just too broad, which is a shame because this card would be a massively cool proof of concept for a new deck I want to make, Double Masters: helmed by Riku of Two Reflections and sporting only cards which have a 2 on them or interact somehow with 2. It's a shame that this card isn't cool and is instead just very, very good.
Sorry if this is a rant but I am annoyed; I love this card as a johnny, because I want to maximize it, but the floor is so broadly applicable that it's useless to do so, and it'll probably be prohibitively expensive anyway- we love being a Magic-playing college student- because of its broad strength.
RNR_Gaming says... #3
So, the way wizards has been printing cards lately with all the collector editions/vip editions I don't see this card getting over 25 or even staying around 25 it it does unless it dips into other formats; I'm thinking it'll dip to like 5-8. Its preselling for 15 now. People are going to crack a lot of packs for those box topper expeditions.
Also, nothing wrong with wizards printing good cards. I wish they would do it more lol. though I can understand the frustration of not wanting to auto include this in every deck; with a card like this I would try to only include it in a deck that would get maximum value out of it or I would use it in a commander that is substantially weaker than traditional options like Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer.
September 9, 2020 12:02 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
You see, my opinion is that Lithoform Engine does so little for so much mana investment that it is unplayable in any but the most casual deck. Of the 4 decks that I am actively playing it goes in 0. Tapping kills it as a second Rings of Brighthearth for Tayam. Xenagos can neither take a turn off to do nothing nor afford 4 mana to copy a beater until well after it is relevant. Hapatra doesn't have anything it wants to copy at those rates. Chulane has so many triggers/spells that copying 1 a turn and disrupting the game plan to do it isn't worth doing.
Of my old 6 decks there are reasons for each that I wouldn't run it. Having to tap kills it completely for the type of magic I play (casual games with decks that have a clear plan that they consistently execute). I hope you are right and it is able to affect games since I like weird synergies, but I don't see it.
September 9, 2020 12:24 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #5
We said the same thing about The Immortal Sun and I don't think I've seen that more than once in a commander game since its printing in 2018. It will probably be fine.
September 9, 2020 12:33 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #6
Okay, based on the response so far... I think either 1) I may have lowballed the average power level of a commander deck, 2) this site, being frequented mostly by deeply enfranchised players, isn't representative of it, or 3) it's some specific trait of my meta that this card is nuts in. Maybe we just play with an uncommon amount of activated and triggered abilities. I dunno.
But I really do think that the barrier for entry with this card is the ability to cast a 4-mana artifact and not generate any value with it that turn. If you've gotten your hands on a Rings of Brighthearth, clearly you're past that point, but for players of 5-7 EDH like me, that is entirely an option, and activating this card even twice is a lot of value.
September 9, 2020 1 a.m.
Flooremoji says... #8
DragonSliver9001: While I agree that cards that can fit in a multitude of stratagies are nice to see and definitely add to MTG as a whole, too many of them are bad for the game.
Cards like Arcum's Astrolabe gives every deck the ability to splash for the best cards in the format.
Gitaxian Probe means every deck starts at 56 cards.
Once Upon a Time provides consistency for every deck.
Mental Misstep is an amazing tempo play for every deck.
The key phrase here is 'every deck' Having all of these cards that can see play in any deck just makes every deck the same in so many ways. Especially if the cards are at this power level, all of these cards very much deserved to be banned.
Notice how all of these cards had a non color limiting cost at roughly 1 cmc, and were cantrips or in MMs case an answer. There is almost no opportunity cost to just play 4 of these cards, and your deck will run smoother.
So while yes, having some of these cards is good, when they are too powerful (or too numerous) it just homogenizes a format.
Interestingly, Lithoform Engine is not cheap, an answer, or a cantrip.
September 9, 2020 2:25 a.m.
ZendikariWol: By all means, there are certain decks that will love it. I was commenting that it acts as a backup to Isochron Scepter (albeit at the requirement for extra dorks/rocks) for the Scepter/Dramatic Reversal combo. It also allows you to use cards like Turnabout (assuming you have enough artifacts). And as DragonSliver9001 mentioned, Riku will probably love it (well, a typical 5-7 Riku deck at least).
The problem however (and part of the reason that people don't like the card - for your refernce DragonSliver9001) is that it falls prey to the multitool problem - it does a bunch of stuff, but none of it well and just ends up being bulky.
Don't get me wrong, I love mt leatherman as much as the next guy, but when I'm working on something specific, I will get the specific tool required. I feel like this card has the same kind of issue. I could run Lithoform Engine and could copy a creature spell of mine, but at 8 additional mana (assuming I'm playing and using it the same turn), or even at 4 additional mana, am I actually going to get enough bang for buck to warrant the card? And on top of that, if most of the creatures in my deck top out at 4-5 mana, how much have I slowed down the rest of my potentially last 2 turns just so I can make a second copy of Sun Titan for example? (who would be a good creature to copy).
And if I want to copy activated abilities, I can only do it once per turn without employing some sort of untap combo, so the activated ability has to be good enough to warrant paying 4 mana and then 2 additional mana, but not good enough that I could have just won the game with one activation of the ability anyway (e.g. Shaman of Forgotten Ways).
So on this, I think that Lithoform Engine just falls short on too many fronts because it tries to do too many things.
September 9, 2020 4:53 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
I detest 1-10 scales to describe power level. As such, I haven't really paid attention to exactly how these scales describe each arbitrary number and instead was going by the 1 word descriptors I had heard for each pair of "jank", "casual", "focused", "optimized", "competitive". After looking up the scales, what I consider to be "barely a focused deck" and therefore a 5 these scales consider "highly optimized" and an 8.
September 9, 2020 6:33 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #11
Well DragonSliver9001, colorless cards usually do things that any color can do, worse than any color can do them. Flooremoji described it better than I could, with a certain caviat:
enpc, Flooremoji, I still think that Lithoform Engine is a good card, in the specific power level and context of my metagame, and for some reason most of my decks make good use of the first and second abilities (the third is kind of overpriced). But this card is not as good as I first thought. I just happen to have a bunch of decks that make oddly good use of it.
Gidgetimer, 1-10, I'll concede, is not a perfect way of communicating power level, but over time I think it's collected a pretty consistent definition.
September 9, 2020 9:22 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #12
I remember cracking a Mirari and Rings of Brighthearth back in the day and this feels kinda eh in comparison. I feel like this card MAY see some constructed play, but it's also going to be pushed to the side, unless it makes a ground breaking Modern performance which is highly doubtful. I feels like a very very over hyped mythic, but you never know though.
It has some decent potential being played alongside Zirda, the Dawnwaker and can be played Splinter Twin style alongside the all the untap creatures, it can be a very over costed Isochron Scepter as well with Dramatic Reversal on the stack. Otherwise. Eh.
September 9, 2020 10:40 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #13
Flooremoji many of your examples are colored and do not fit the criteria of fitting in every deck. in fact "none" of your examples do. they really don't homogenize the format.
ZendikariWol: show me a card that does what lithoform engine does. seems weird to say that it should be worse than a colored version if there is no colored version. and there doesn't have to be.
September 9, 2020 1:37 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #14
enpc: it does do things well actually. your reasoning that "its bad" doesn't even fit with what the op said about going in every deck.
September 9, 2020 1:40 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #15
DragonSliver9001, I'm saying I wouldn't be upset about this card if it had a color, because that's a pretty significant limiter in EDH, but instead this is a huge colorless swiss army knife that every single deck has access to.
September 9, 2020 2:03 p.m.
time will tell
I agree that it has serous potential
but i also agree that many people will just cram it in decks that wont utilize its potential
like enpc said in the first post "it's going to get stuffed into so many decks under the guise that it'll be awesome but ultimately will just fill a win-more position."
so i wont always care if this card hits the board
to be fair though i have this same opinion about Isochron Scepter
take Isochron Scepter & Dramatic Reversal for example
total powerhouse combo so much so people just cram the two in there decks
There decks are not designed for the combo (just playing blue isn't good enough)
so no real way to put it together as a result most the time they get played separately at a much lesser value
even when they do get the combo they tend to wiff on the rocks
September 9, 2020 2:21 p.m.
Flooremoji says... #17
DragonSliver9001: Ouat had a alternative casting cost. In modern E-tron lists would play 1 Forest and still be able to get vaule of it. MM and gitaxian probe had phyrexian mana costs, and Arcum's Astrolabe required a basic land to cast it. None of these cards could be exculded from your deck purely by casting cost or color.
All of these examples did homogenize formats before they were banned, maybe not commander, by formats like modern and legacy. It is also possible that my defintion and yours of homogenizing formats is different, but these cards weren't okay. Ouat was number 1 played spell in modern shortly after release, AA was probably close if not there. The phyrexian spells could fit into any deck that wanted a free cantrip and information or interaction. MM was the best answer to itself so it was hard not to justify plying it.
September 9, 2020 2:27 p.m.
DragonSliver9001: Your comment was short so I'll reference it directly:
"it does do things well actually."
Without any context or evidence to back up this claim, the comment is basically "the card is good and I should know". The issue with that kind of discussion here is that your evidence is effectively you staking your credibility on the card's value. This means that any discussion in disagreement may come across as a personal attack on you, becuase that's the only available talking point you've given. I would highly recommend against using this kind argument, as it will typically lead to popele feeling/getting attacked.
"Your reasoning that "its bad" doesn't even fit with what the op said about going in every deck"
I didn't ever say the card was bad. I called it win-more, underwhelming, a multitool, bulky and that it falls short. While it might sound like I'm splitting hairs here, the distiction is important. The card is perfectly fine in a vacuum. It copies a bunch of stuff and who doesn't like free copies.
The problem though lies in the fact that it tries to do too many things. There are already cards that do each of these things, for abilities we have Strionic Resonator and Rings of Brighthearth, for copying spells we have Mirari or stright up, cards liek Thousand-Year Storm and for creatures we have cards like Flameshadow Conjuring and Bramble Sovereign. While some of these are not colourless, they are all much more efficient at what they do because they focus on one specific thing.
But for Lithoform Engine, because it tries to do everything, you end up with it costing a decent amount of mana to play (Aetherflux Reservoir does the same and can actually just end the game) and then also costs a fair amount to activate, considering that you have to tap it. And the fact that they are all tap abilities is what I was trying to illustrate before - since you can only use it once per turn, it fits into an awkward space where you want to use it on good spells/abilities but if you're using it on spells/abilites which would win the game by themselves then it just becomes win-more anyway.
So for a casual deck, the card is fine, but cards like this have a tendancy to get cut pretty quickly once poeple start refining their decks as it lacks focus.
As for not aligning with OP's comments, the comment was made that most EDH decks will want to run this. I then stated that I'm sure there will be a bunch of decks that will want to run this becuase they think it's awesome but it ends up not really doing much. I then expanded on my comment. I fail to see how this doesn't align with what OP was talking about.
September 9, 2020 8:51 p.m.
RambIe; I think the differnce there is that the Dramatic Reversal/Isochron Scepter is a good, compact combo but a lot of players somehow think that infinite mana = I win the game, which isn't true at all. So while that combo is straight up good, it's either great if you can abuse it (Thrasios, Triton Hero, Kenrith, the Returned King, Oona, Queen of the Fae, etc.) or it's just a waste of cards if you can't.
I think that for Lithoform Engine, for most decks the value ceiling on the card just won't be as high. Sure, you might make a token or copy a spell to draw some cards or something, but the overall value it generates just isn't as much.
September 9, 2020 8:56 p.m. Edited.
DragonSliver9001 says... #20
enpc: it does things well because it just does. people like Rings of Brighthearth. lithoform engine does the exact same thing and more. tapping it doesn't really matter. you're likely not gonna have the mana to use the effect of Rings of Brighthearth twice in the same turn, nor would you usually want to. lithoform engine doesn't require you to wait for a good spell or ability to copy. just use it on whatever you were doing for that turn anyway. why wait when you can use it every turn?
I didn't ever say the card was bad. I called it win-more, underwhelming, a multitool, bulky and that it falls short.
thats what bad means.
your comment didn't align with what op was talking about because you brought up a different point entirely. going in "every deck", and performing well, are 2 entirely different issues.
Flooremoji none of those cards homogenized formats. Once Upon a Time does not have an "alternate cost". nongreen decks "could" use it, but thats highly unlikely and became literally impossible after playing their first spell. so it can certainly be excluded from a deck based on color. as for Arcum's Astrolabe, it is exactly what pauper needed. wotc knew good and well what would happen when they released that card.
September 9, 2020 11:44 p.m.
DragonSliver9001: "Because" is still not a reason. "Because" is what a parent uses on a toddler and the reasoning implied is "Because I am in charge and I am looking after you, and you need to trust that I know what I'm doing". When discussing the merits of a card, "Because" is not a good enough response.
I can guarantee that one of the reasons Rings of Brighthearth is so popular is because it can be used multiple times per turn. Not only is it the enabler in multiple well-known infinite combos (Basalt Monolith says hi) but it's becuase you can abuse the crap out of an ability multiple times per turn. I was in a game where my ally (2HG) was able to Strip Mine 6 lands per turn thanks to Rings.
I'm not sure what level of commander you play, but I'm going to assume based on the information I have that it's somewhere between casual and pub stomp. Sure, at lreally casual ends of the spectrum, jsut copying any random spell each turn is fine. But as you get more focused, cards like Lithoform Engine get more an more inefficient and you don't have the time or resources to sink into copying dumb spells when the Lithoform Engine could have been a repeatable card draw engine for example. Sure, if you're stalled and top decking then you could copy that Farseek for 5 mana total, but at that point I would have preferred the Lithoform Engine to just be something else. And what you'll find is that the more up on a scale you go, the less you want jack of all trades cards and the more you want efficient, does one thing cards. While there is still some space for multitools, you have to be very discerning about what they do.
Win-more, underwhelming, multitool and bulky are definitely not the same as bad. You might imply that something is bad becuase it's bulky. But you can't imply that something is bulky becuase it's bad. And this matters. Omniscience is bulky. If you can hard cast it, chances are you have a boatload of mana anyway. Yet Omniscience is not a bad card. What I listed are descriptions of traits. If I say a card is bulky, you may or may not imply that it's bad. But if I say a card is bad, the immediate resposne is "Why?" and this is why the distinction is important.
OP made the comment that Lithoform Engine goes in like 80% of EDH decks. I made the comment that for a bunch of the decks it's going to be stuffed in (you know, those 80% of decks), that poeple will include it becuase they think it's awesome but that realistically it will underperform for a bunch of those decks. What I did was expand on OP's inital point and make some directly related comments. This is the basis behind how a conversation works. You're correct in that I didn't directly parrot back what OP said, becuase that wouldn't add anything to the conversaion. That's the equivalent of posting "LOL true XD" which is conversational white noise and adds zero value.
If you're trying to imply that I somehow derailed the conversation or that I tried to change its agenda to something that indistinguishable to the original talking point, then I would disagree with you there. I mean, I'm a different human being than OP and so I have a different opinion on the card, but I fail to see how that's a bad thing or how that negatively impacted the conversation.
September 10, 2020 12:35 a.m.
Flooremoji says... #22
I don't know what your definition of homogenizing formats is DragonSliver9001: but in my book they all did. It dosen't really matter if we agree on that- agree to disagree if you will. :)
It seems awfully technical to say that Ouat didn't have an alternate casting cost :/
Were you active in modern when Ouat was the number 1 spell? There were many decks that had no buisness splashing for a green card that splashed for ouat. I supose the argument could be made that thats when most decks were green, but that dosen't change the fact that decks that weren't green did play it.
I could have phrased it better, but what I meant when I said none of the cards could be excluded by color I mean that your deck could just splash with no trouble in Ouat's and AA's case (or just play more basics for AA spesificly). This was somthing that did happen in a bunch of different decks.
You liked playing pauper with AA? I have heard many opionions on Astrolabe and yours is the first positive one I've heard. Or am I misinterpreting and you don't play pauper and are just telling me your observations of the format?
Weather wizards knew what would happen if they released AA or not is somthing I'd prefer not to discuss. :)
Anyhow, this part of the conversation is less about Lithoform Engine, so lets continue it on my wall. :)
September 10, 2020 2:36 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #23
Flooremoji: its not "awfully technical" to say that once upon a time doesn't have an alternate casting cost.
whether, not "weather".
yes i very much liked playing pauper with Arcums astrolabe. i have a hard time believing im the first person you've heard say that.
homogenizing a format means all decks are the same. modern has plenty of diversity. #1 spell means nothing. you have to look at decks as a whole.
September 10, 2020 12:35 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #24
I feel like making a token of a mutate pile could be pretty powerful, the bounce the pile and replay it on the token, BUT at 8 + mana just to do that... Cringe
September 10, 2020 5:10 p.m.
user:DeinoStinkus: It's not about sides here. I don't think anybody is on anybody's side, it's just each person's opinion. And I don't think poeple are accusing each other. For the most part, the conversation has been civil and the talking points have been the opinions, not attacking the person behind them.
The discussion here is about the effectiveness of a card and so people will have differing opinions about that. But again, for the most part I think that the users here know that it's just a discussion around opinions, not playing for sheep stations.
Chances are I won't change someone's opinion on the forum here, just like they won't change mine. But it gives them an alternate angle to think about if they so want to. There's also all of the people who don't want to post anything but are interested in what others have to say, and it provides them a thinking point.
September 10, 2020 7:34 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #26
defamagraphy1: Is there an interaction I am missing, or a ruling on this card that I haven't seen?
Lithoform Engine makes a copy of the permanent spell and that copy becomes a token. It does not copy the permanent that the spell becomes. Copying a spell copies all choices made for the spell and nothing is letting you change any of those choices. This means that if you cast Dirge Bat for mutate targeting a merged permanent (a "mutate pile") and use Lithoform Engine on it you will get a second Dirge Bat who's mutate cost was paid targeting the same merged permanent. If you bounce the pile it will destroy the token copy.
September 10, 2020 8:25 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #27
Oof. Leave it to me to misread. Thought it made tokens of permanents.
Um. Yeah.
On second sight, this feels like a novelty type card.
But still, copy a cast mutate card, make the token, bounce the pile and replay on the token. Despite misreading my comment stills stands, its too costly of a play to attempt.
September 10, 2020 9:18 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #28
Actually, that's a whole new complicated rules mess.
The missing line being "you may choose new targets for the copy" would gatherer support the change of targets as most copy spells do? I wonder. Either way.
Meh.
September 10, 2020 9:21 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #29
And no, the mutate card would not destroy itself. If you cast a card for it's mutate cost and the target no longer exists, the card still comes into play, just without mutating.
September 10, 2020 9:24 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #30
You are copying the spell, since there is no effect allowing you to change the targets it has the same target as the original spell. This is the same way it works for auras when copied with Lithoform Engine. Comprehensive rule 706 covers copying objects. The major thing to remember in MtG is that spells and abilities do exactly what they say; nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't say you get to change targets, so you can't.
You would get to put the token on the top or bottom of the merged creature and then you would put the original on the top or bottom of the merged creature that now includes the token. If you bounce this merged creature, the token will cease to exist as a SBA as soon as it separates into the constituent parts in your hand.
If you respond to the spells before they resolve by bouncing their target you will get a token copy of the mutate you cast and then the non-token copy.
September 10, 2020 10:06 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #31
Despite the rules for copying a spells and targets, mutate doesn't need the target to still enter the battlefield.
702.139b As a mutating creature spell begins resolving, if its target is illegal, it ceases to be a mutating creature spell and continues resolving as a creature spell and will be put onto the battlefield under the control of the spell's controller.
The copy would copy all characteristics of the spell being cast.
September 11, 2020 5:42 a.m.
This card is so overhyped and is really just a mediocre card. Please before you start grilling me I don't play cedh my decks run between jank to really good decks.
Sorry people this card does not go in every deck and it is not an auto include in every deck. The card is just not that good. I can see it used in the more casual meta in some decks but the hype has gotten out of hand. You can throw one in every deck you have if you want but I betting it want do as while as you think it will in every deck.
September 11, 2020 12:46 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #33
defamagraphy1 please re-read my earlier comments. I am not saying that the copy will get destroyed and not enter. Maybe an example would help. To keep this simple let's just use a single card instead of an already merged permanent for the base creature. We are assuming that no one would like to take any actions beyond what is specified just to not add priority passes.
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You cast Dirge Bat for its mutate cost targeting Charging Badger.
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You activate Lithoform Engine to copy the Dirge Bat spell.
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Since the original spell had it's mutate cost paid and is targeting Charging Badger, the copy is a mutate spell targeting Charging Badger. Nothing allows you to rechoose any choices made when casting or reselect targets, so you can't make it not a mutate or mutate it onto another creature.
-
The copy resolves and you can put it over or under the Charging Badger. We are going to put it on top. So you now have a 3/3 token Dirge Bat with flying, flash, trample, and "Whenever this creature mutates, destroy target creature or planeswalker an opponent controls." that just mutated.
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The kill ability goes on the stack. No one responds and the target is killed.
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The original Dirge Bat resolves and since the merged permanent is considered by the game to be the same one it was previously targeting it mutates on and we can put it over or under the token Dirge Bat. We are again going to put the new creature on top. We now have a 3/3 non-token Dirge Bat with 2 instances of flash, 2 instances of flying, trample, and 2 instances of "Whenever this creature mutates, destroy target creature or planeswalker an opponent controls." that just mutated.
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The 2 kill abilities go on the stack. No one responds to either and the targets are killed.
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You cast Unsummon targeting the Dirge Bat/Dirge Bat/Charging Badger merged permanent.
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One creature leaves the battlefield and 2 creature cards and a creature token enter your hand. The next time SBA are checked the token ceases to exist.
If instead you had cast Unsummon at step 4 what would happen is:
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You cast Dirge Bat for its mutate cost targeting Charging Badger.
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You activate Lithoform Engine to copy the Dirge Bat spell.
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Since the original spell had it's mutate cost paid and is targeting Charging Badger, the copy is a mutate spell targeting Charging Badger. Nothing allows you to rechoose any choices made when casting or reselect targets, so you can't make it not a mutate or mutate it onto another creature.
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You cast unsummon targeting Charging Badger
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The Charging Badger is returned to your hand.
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The copy resolves with no target and you get a token Dirge Bat.
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The original resolves with no target and you get a Dirge Bat
September 11, 2020 5:25 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #34
Back on topic, I feel that you may be missing an opportunity with saying it doesn't go into Chainer, Nightmare Adept. Without knowing how your decks are built I'd say it would want one more than Roon for sure.
I'm still a bit taken aback by what I see as "average farting around level" is an 8 on these power scales. Now that I look at it more it isn't even that what I play fits neatly into an 8. It is more building philosophy of 8, card choices of 6, seriousness of 4. This is why I don't like these scales. They leave no room for the guy Diabolic Tutoring for a Dismal Backwater to set off Blood/Bond. Whatever level people consider that to be, I still don't think that Lithoform Engine will see much play at or above.
September 11, 2020 5:51 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #35
Gidgetimer Exactly your last scenario...just not with Dirge Bat. There are other reasons to make the token for
But if you'd like to re-read my above comments, I had agreed with you. It was merely a quip to a "possibility" I didn't say it was viable. I believe I included the word Cringe in my comment.
I do not understand why the tapped out community feels such a need to argue with one another over to who is right or wrong and this seems to be a thing that repeatedly occurs with people even in such a manner a picking apart words.
I wanted to address this issue, but I felt the need to wait to see if you responded.
I would like to think tappedout is a resource to help people build their decks, come up with new ideas and even better their strategies/builds/and even playing, but the way these suggestions are made... smh.
September 11, 2020 6:56 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #37
I may have needed to clarify that I was talking about post resolution in comment #30, but clearly stated it in #34 and you continued to argue with me in #35. Please don't act like the poor imposed upon party here when you were being argumentative and I was trying to clarify what I was saying.
September 11, 2020 7:16 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #38
Btw, it actually can see serious cEDH play, remember Strionic Resonator in Brago, King Eternal decks, like enpc, mentioned? This acts as a second copy, now is that going to break the deck, no, but it show a valuable use of it, and a second, worse version of resonator is perfectly fine considering it still can win almost instantly.
Take the example brought up about Isochron Scepter, is it as powerful? No, but redundancy doesn't hurt the decks that want it!
It's all relative, and I don't see this card being broken, but it's not bad at all, and a lot of the people that assume it won't see cEDH play should look up the cards it mirrors!
September 12, 2020 4:15 p.m.
Not that the commander actually needs it but Lithoform Engine gives you infinite blue mana with Teferi, Temporal Archmage. (assuming you have at least 3 islands on the field...Tall order, I know)
enpc says... #2
I think my biggest beef with the card is that it's going to get stuffed into so many decks under the guise that it'll be awesome but ultimately will just fill a win-more position.
If your commander has a super powerful ability to copy (which is what this card is best positioned for) then it will be Rings of Brighthearth number 2 sure, but I kind of foresee Lithoform Engine getting played a bunch but then poeple not using it because they're hoping to draw into soemthing big to copy but which rarely lines up properly.
But then the one time they did copy that one big spell/creature of theirs it was totally awesome, which will unfortunately continue to colour people's opinions on the card.
I guess my thoughts on it are "sure you can copy lots of stuff, like fetch lands, or even ramp spells, but how often are you actually going to do that?" I see a lot of cards make their way into people's decks based on best case scenario, where in reality the card ends up being underwhelming.
I was talking to my wife about this last night for her Captain Sisay deck (which granted is designed for a cEDH meta) and the conclusion with it (in my mind) was "you will always have something better to do that to tutor/play this".
September 8, 2020 11:57 p.m.