Countering turtling
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on May 23, 2016, 7:09 p.m. by suneater
I took a break from MTG entirely about a year and a half ago and I'm considering getting back into it again. However, the playgroup I'm looking to join has some members I've played with previously and I know their playstyle: turtle for the first 5 or so turns, drawing extra cards and ramping/fixing to draw more cards or use a board wipe to kill 2 creatures. Previously I would counter this with lots of LD but here's the issue... the group has a banlist that includes all mass LD and all extra turn cards (and quietly banning infinite combos). How do I stop this boring turtling arms race? Is it possible to prevent people from even playing lands or using their mana?
Epochalyptik says... #3
Spending the first five turns ramping and drawing cards really isn't that big a deal, to be honest.
May 23, 2016 7:23 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #4
So you are a combo player, mad because other people aren't comboing in the first 5 turns? Drawing cards and ramping is "fair" in the first 5 turns. But if you wanted to be "That Guy", just play Prison Control with Grand Arbiter Augustin IV.
May 23, 2016 7:35 p.m.
@ducttapedeckbox Surprisingly Boil isn't banned, but Blood Moon and Ruination (two cornerstones of my mono red deck) are. Stuff like Choke is nice but it seems really situational. Some people do play blue-less decks after all. I'd love a Vorinclex but I'm pretty sure I'd end up spending $25 on him only to have him be countered or instantly killed every time I tried to play him. Kinda hoping for cheaper answers but thanks for the ideas.
@ Epochalyptik In a 1v1 perhaps but when you're playing with 3, 4, 5 people it gets boring to have a half hour to hour of "gameplay" of people just building their forts.
Maybe I should just build a chaos deck and see how much madness I can cause.
May 23, 2016 7:35 p.m.
@UpperDeckerTaco Closest thing to a combo I've run was Magister Sphinx
+
Sorin's Vengeance
which I successfully played a whole one time but feel free to make whatever assumptions you want. I made a Grand Arbiter deck for my brother and he loves it but I feel like that would just be turtling harder. I also really don't like the 
/
color combo outside of possibly a Geist of Saint Traft deck.
May 23, 2016 7:44 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #7
Then just play U/R control. And make them draw and you draw a ton and play Sphinx's Tutelage. Lol. Also, is Jokulhaups banned in the group, if not that'd be funny.
May 23, 2016 7:51 p.m.
Run stax. Winter Orb, Static Orb, Storage Matrix, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Orb of Dreams, Thorn of Amethyst, Defense Grid, Portcullis, Possessed Portal, Invoke Prejudice, Black Vise, Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Cursed Totem, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Dovescape, Knowledge Pool, and many others. No MLD, but they'll think you're a Huge D, but hey, they brought this on themselves.
May 23, 2016 7:59 p.m.
Why not build a Gahiji, Honored One aggro deck or something? just ramp really hard and then beat into them while they're still building their pillow forts.
Personally, I've always wanted to build a mono blue Azami, Lady of Scrolls stax deck using stuff like Back to Basics, Quicksilver Fountain, Spreading Seas - all stuff that just screws over mana bases. Then just swing in with a bunch of big island walkers.
May 23, 2016 8:01 p.m.
@UpperDeckerTaco Massive card draw and wheel effects is actually probably the way to go. I think I could cause just enough chaos to disrupt things without throwing every game. Jokulhaups is indeed banned. Can I post the ban list without breaking the thread formatting? I'd prefer to post the individual cards instead of linking to it so I don't cause any drama for myself irl.
@mtgThaen I'd love to do this but most of the stax cards are banned. :( Thanks for the idea though, it would definitely work if I could play it.
@enpc I actually had a Gahiji deck at one point but I dismantled it because I could never get enough creatures or even tokens out to matter.
Thank you for the input everyone. My passion is slowly being rekindled lol
May 23, 2016 8:36 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #11
They like to draw? Punish them for it. Nekusar, the Mindrazer
May 23, 2016 8:42 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #12
I'm with DarkMagician. Play Nekusar. I absolutely hate playing against it and I don't play a lot of Blue decks. It's annoying. Especially if you add Hive Mind and then play Wheel of Fortune while Nekusar is out, a pain in the Arse.
May 23, 2016 9:44 p.m.
I played against nekusar once when I was screwed for colors and my opponent saved me with a draw7 spell. It took the draw 7 and three rounds of extra draws to get to a source of the color that I needed. I would have been locked out of the game because the missing color was Green so I couldn't even cast my ramps and color fixing dorks in my hand until my opponent got me to that green source.
Thanks nekusar dude!
May 23, 2016 10:05 p.m.
Deckologist says... #14
Aggro the living hell out of them. Play something like Radha, Heir to Keld or Skullbriar, the Walking Grave and just rip them apart faster than they can ramp. or play hate bears with Gaddock Teeg.
May 23, 2016 10:13 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #15
Ideally you don't get a next turn one a Nekusar player starts wheeling though.
May 23, 2016 10:37 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #16
uuuummm......
maybe edh isn't your jam. If you don't want durdling try other kinds of multiplayer, b/c EDH is usually about waiting for the kill and being political.
If you wanna stop it, though, play goblins. They'll force the durdle to stop.
May 23, 2016 11:30 p.m.
Deckologist says... #17
DERPLINGSUPREME gets it. Fight through the durdle. Use the constrictor technique. Keep a squeeze on them and when they try to breathe in wrap yourself tighter. Be the choking vine to their strategy.
May 23, 2016 11:40 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #18
Is Sunder on this banned list? If not, become a better ramp deck. Play Patron of the Moon as your commander, get it out with Amulet of Vigor, float all of your mana, cast Sunder and the drop your land again. Repeat as necessary with Archaeomancer and Deadeye Navigator. You can also add in Palinchron, Great Whale, and Peregrine Drake to also pair with Deadeye to make infinite mana and make everyone deck themselves with Blue Sun's Zenith.
You can even cover up all the drawing being done (mostly your own) by having them being mostly Howling Mine type effects. Speaking from experience, everyone ignores the guy giving them two or three extra cards a turn, even if he's landed a Consecrated Sphinx and has thirty cards in his hand.
Oh, and I'd just like to say this: If this group really doesn't match up with what you are wanting from a playgroup, talk to them about it. And if they won't try and compromise, it might be best to start looking for another group.
May 24, 2016 1:06 a.m.
ItchiUchiha117: in mono blue, you'd be better off using Stroke of Genius over Blue Sun's Zenith. The reason decks youse USZ with that combo is becuase they typically run Rune-Scarred Demon alongside. Becasue RSD lets you tutor your library USZ works really well. But if you don't have access to that kind of tutor, using Stroke of Genius means that you can get it from your graveyard using Archaeomancer or the like.
But yeah, other than that the combo works really well.
May 24, 2016 1:22 a.m.
I think what some people don't realize about banning the best commander decks simply changes what the best commanders are.
With the playgroup you describe I would try:
Meren of Clan Nel Toth: Doesn't have to be stax. Permanent board control is enough to win.
Omnath, Locus of Rage: Combo decks are what keep everyone safe from this thing. If he stays in play for even one turn, board wipes can become suicidal.
Rubinia Soulsinger: Turtle harder.
May 24, 2016 4:47 a.m.
JohnnyBaggins says... #22
I don't really understand your problem. Drawing cards and ramping are essential parts of EDH. Don't you like that? Then I'd recommand just playing Modern or Standard. Don't you like how the particular game group approaches it? Either try to find the most competetive players in there and build a competetive sub-group, respectively, go to another store and find a new group, more competetive group.
Or are you just annoyed by their slow play?
May 27, 2016 6:05 p.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #23
I'm really curious about one thing here, you seem to be upset about turtling AND the ban on mass land destruction.
I learned just 2 days ago how slow mass land destruction can be when I cast Thoughts of Ruin in my Nekusar, the Mindrazer deck. It was then 6 when I cast it but it might as well have been turn 1 all over again. Everyone was set back and not a single person was happy about it.
The moral of this is "why would you want to use mass land destruction if you hate watching people build resources?
May 30, 2016 12:33 a.m.
The problem is that if you're using MLD for the sake of MLD then yeah, the games will drag on. But if you're using it to help you cement a win then it's a different story.
May 30, 2016 2:25 a.m.
Mass LD needs a follow-up strategy behind it... Just doing Thoughts of Ruin because you can kill a lot of lands will slow down the game, I agree. In my Ashling the Pilgrim deck (My Commander is a Board Wipe) I have Ruination and Burning Sands which barely affect me and will essentially remove a 3+ color deck or token deck from the game. Previously I also used Soulscour in an artifact deck (mana rocks and artifact lands are safe), and I had Armageddon in a Naya deck (drop fatties then blow up all lands).
I have played against people who did dickish garbage like Death Cloud for 8 because they were about to die and felt like screwing everyone else but I always tried to avoid using Armageddon and such just because I could. Mass LD is also very risky if you don't have access to green.
I'm not looking to build a Mass LD deck just to piss off a table of friends but I feel like that and aggro are the only strategies against certain decks that want to just sit back and play solitaire. I prefer to create unique interactions but sometimes you just have to beat face to win. Hope this wall of text clears up some things.
May 30, 2016 1:53 p.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #26
That actually makes a lot more sense. The stax really sounds like the best answer then. Our maybe turtle have than them, play something like Lord of Tresserhorn and unblockable so that they have to deal with you.
May 30, 2016 4:27 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #27
Honestly, I think the best answer is to find a new playgroup. It's likely this one just isn't a good fit for you and if you disrupt it, they'll think you're an asshole.
If you insist on staying with this group, I think Nekusar, the Mindrazer has been a good suggestion. Be sure to stick Grafted Exoskeleton, Phyresis and Glistening Oil in there, with a ton of wheel effects. Make them pitch those hands they've so carefully crafted, and once you get one of the aforementioned cards this can easily kill them in a single turn.
You could also do something obnoxious with Zedruu the Greathearted. "Oh, you want to put a bunch of stuff on your board? I'll help! Have an Illusions of Grandeur! Also, I can promise hours of fun with a shiny Steel Golem! I've got this Delusions of Mediocrity too... I won't blow it up immediately... honest! Oh and your buddies over there? I will generously give them this gently used Transcendence, or a brand spankin' new Goldnight Castigator! How about this lovely Thought Lash?"
Perhaps not the best way to win, but I guarantee it will annoy the hell out of them and give them a lot to think about.
May 31, 2016 3:39 a.m. Edited.
I've been thinking of finding a new group also, ComradeJim270, but the problem is I don't know how to lol. I don't have social media so I'm not sure where I should start to try to find a group. The obvious answer is to just ask people at card shops sure but that's always been awkward in my experience. Is there an app or something people use for this?
Thanks for all the help & ideas everyone.
June 1, 2016 1:37 a.m.
Deckologist says... #29
You can actually use the forums on this site. I believe in the social forums they have a lot of people who post about looking for players in their area.
ducttapedeckbox says... #2
There are hate cards such as Boil, Blood Moon, Choke, etc. that hate on certain sects of lands. Not sure if those are covered. Uhh, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger?
You could also turtle faster and more efficiently yourself.
May 23, 2016 7:15 p.m.