card:Praetor's Counsel seems unnecessary given that card:Yawgmoth's Will basically does the same thing for less mana (which is important because I like to win the turn I cast something like this).

Rite of Replication is unnecessary. There aren't many creatures worth copying at sorcery speed for that much mana and none of them will win me the game.

Mirari is just too expensive to cast and use.

Considering there are only 3 basics in the deck, Solemn Simulacrum is a bit underwhelming. If I'm spending 4 to ramp, I want to be finding duals and putting them in untapped.

Wood Elves is in a similar position. It's just outclassed by card:Nature's Lore and Skyshroud Claim .

Regrowth is something I've been considering, but I'm not convinced it's worth it.

Cloudstone Curio is unnecessary. This deck can't really abuse this card the way it needs to.

Animate Dead seems unnecessary. I don't often find a situation in game where I could cast it and even less frequently find times when it would be beneficial to cast. Same with Diabolic Servitude .

The high fetch count makes this deck work beautifully. It allows me to always have access to the colors I need when I need them. I much prefer them to pain or core lands.

The Mimeoplasm is unnecessary. Given how seldom I ever want reanimator spells it seems even less viable.

Basic lands do have a downside - they're basics. They don't offer additional utility and they don't tap for more than one color. Given the color saturation of the deck, I really don't want to rely on them at all. I would replace them if there were other fetchable duals.

I'm not sure you read the description. There are many legitimate combos in the deck, not all of which revolve around Palinchron . While a clever player can find a way around Palinchron , a cleverer one will be one step ahead of that player anyway. I focus on heavy control and I have failsafe options should Palinchron get exiled or something.

Infinite mana does plenty for me. There are four primary wincons with infinite mana up and I've never had one fail. Exsanguinate was cut earlier for being too one-dimensional in application.

The win ratio of this deck is already extremely high. When I choose cards, I make the decisions based on how powerful and effective they are. I don't want to run something if there are better alternatives. I also think everything needs to serve a purpose. I don't want 7-drops that don't win me the game immediately.

what turn do you normally win on and at what mana? i know every game is inherently different but with a combo deck i would imagine they usually play out in a similar reliable way most games? hell most of my decks work very reliably and get me wins reliably only difference I have 10 cards that are missing making my deck closer to $400 ish rather than $2000 haha :-) and obviously slightly less reliable and therefore competetive aka some original dual lands missing and of course the money counters are missing along with the Pernicious Deed . i ask because surely getting a Omniscience into play = win? although i suppose when i cast that card my Arcanis the Omnipotent can draw me alot of cards quickly and easily and cheaply to give me stuff to cast...i may rejig either my arcanis or sen triplets to be more competetive...i digress...how about Vedalken Orrery ? that card wins game alone just like the leyline and is invaluable to a control player and isn't too expensive IMO but then again you may think differently! i agree that Exploration would work better than Burgeoning but both should probably be included because your general will fill your hand with land alot, also maybe add Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur obviously really expensive but the flash avoids this problem as you can just bide your time possibly? and that thing can end games if you can back it up like a boss or cheat it out somehow

I generally win when I get to 9-12 mana, depending on the counterspell protection I have. The turn number depends on the ramp that game.

Though Omniscience is certainly a decent card, it is too expensive and limited to be of great usefulness.

Vedalken Orrery was cut because it wasn't as good as it needed to be. Leyline of Anticipation does everything Orrery does, but has the advantage of being a turn-0 play.

Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is too expensive to be as applicable as it needs to be. At 10 mana, I should be winning as soon as I tap. My general serves the same purpose for less. If Jin was a 6-drop, it'd be a more likely candidate for inclusion.

Yes, but the thing here is that I proxied this deck and have been playing with it at my local gamestore. And I DONT win when i tap 9-12... so... i think that you do need more wincons.

With all due respect, you may not be playing the deck in the most optimal fashion. With any EDH deck, half of your victory/loss comes from the deck and half from you as a player. If you aren't familiar with the deck and all the interactions or even with playing control in general, you should expect to have some difficulty.

I can only recall a few times (literal few, maybe 3 tops) where I tapped 9-12 and didn't win. The deck is consistent and the cards are all there. How are you playing it? What do you typically do/play on each turn?

i counter their stuff, and tutor up my lands for the infinate... with protection, usually with prime time. Then, i get palinchron and I can go infinite with enchantment/artifact/land protection but from there, i dont have much options beyond blue suns zenith...

i would strongly suggest adding the rings of brighthearth+mana reflection+basalt monolith

Rings of Brighthearth , Mana Reflection , and Basalt Monolith are not good enough on their own and are only average in the deck. I cannot justify adding them.

There are plenty of options besides card:Blue Sun's Zenith. Venser, Shaper Savant pairs with the Palinchron you used to get infinite mana. Capsize works with infinite mana alone. Other win-cons are available depending on board state.

I don't see how tutoring lands is necessary. The deck can go infinite just fine without ever doing that. Unless you mean ramping.

I've been playtesting it and it consistenly gets a win around turn 7-turn 10, so i don't see a problem with how its operating.

Does it ever get boring though? My playgroup and I have some strong decks but my friend and I easily stick out as the power players in the group. I used to run combo decks like this (see my deck:riddle-of-the-sphinx sharuum edh) and it just got boring. Like I was always playing by myself building my combos while the other players politicized away. Do you ever get that feeling ever? Or do you usually play competitively.

Competitive play is where I feel most at home. I can see how this kind of deck would get boring (or even shunned) in a casual environment, but I typically play purely to win. Often I'm playing for some kind of prize. There's a dark beauty about watching a list like this perform consistently and dominantly in high pressure games where something is actually on the line.

Its definitely still a fun style to play. Its kinda like building an unstoppable nuclear device that is going to detonate regardless if anybody wants it to or not.

But this type of deck would definitely get me shunned for a while, at least until I came up with something more casual. Which is now why I run a Norin EDH haha

not sure if someone has mentioned this but how about Birthing Pod can help find some creatures to enable combos and how about GraveTitan/Massacre Wurm ? infinite mana+navigator=infinite zombies or clears everyones board and deals damage. Acidic Slime can be useful.

There aren't enough creatures for Birthing Pod to be effective. The progression would be awkward as well, since I play utility creatures as I draw/afford them and lack a large base of low-drop creatures worthy of being podded into others.

Grave Titan and Massacre Wurm are too dependent and one-dimensional. The former requires me to attack with creatures that lack haste and the latter is rarely relevant at the high level of competitive play. I normally face off against other combo/control decks that only have one or two creatures out at once. Neither of these two is really utilitarian and they don't really help me achieve my goals on their own.

Acidic Slime was cut a while ago. I found it to be too slow/expensive. Although it's decent removal and it can hit a number of relevant targets, it just doesn't offer enough to justify its price.

Well anyway +1 for the marketing (http://tappedout.net/help-desk/) that was sneaky.

Haha when I was redesigning the help desk, I needed a deck that could be linked as an example, had a straightforward slug name, and wasn't likely to change in slug name anytime soon.

hahaha, BIG fan of limduls vault... I would seriously suggest acidic slime, as it can take out HUGE creatures, along with anything else that is preventing combos for going off...

also, as someone with a budget, how would you suggest reworking the mana base?

The thing is, I rarely attack or get attacked and Acidic Slime doesn't shoot creatures on ETB. It's like a 5-drop Vindicate with less targeting options and I don't really need it for anything other than its ETB effect. I prefer a heavily counterspell based approach because it's more flexible in dealing with threats and tends to be less mana intensive (although it does demand constant access to blue mana).

The pain lands and core lands (in this case, Underground River , Yavimaya Coast , Llanowar Wastes , Drowned Catacomb , Hinterland Harbor , and Woodland Cemetery ) offer some cheap alternatives to the fetch/dual/shock setup I have. The tricky thing will be finding the right balance of lands. Due to this deck's heavy color saturation it kind of needs the extreme consistency of the FDS landbase in its 9:3:3 ratio. You'll have to be careful about what cards you include, since heavily saturated mana costs can lead to slower gameplay and even defeat.

City of Brass , Dimir Aqueduct , Simic Growth Chamber , Golgari Rot Farm , Deserted Temple , Exotic Orchard , and Rupture Spire are some other cheap alternatives. Obviously the ETB tapped effects of some of these lands make them a bit slow, but they're still decent.

ok, what about basics, are they better then the pain lands?also, you do know that phantasmal image + pally is infinate, also, have you considered Guided Passage instead of Intuition . You get one more card, and yes, you dont get to choose them but really, the opponent is doing the choosing anyways and nothing goes to your graveyard, AND to be honest, theres not really any cards you wouldnt want in your hand, or that couldnt help your towards your goal? what u think bout that

I do know that Phantasmal Image + Palinchron is infinite. That's why Phantasmal Image is in the deck.

Guided Passage isn't even playable in this deck, since it's RUG and not BUG. Even if it was playable, it's significantly worse. Not being able to tutor for the cards in question takes away all the utility of the spell. If I cast Intuition finding Tooth and Nail , Eternal Witness , and Snapcaster Mage , it's game over. The two cards going to the graveyard is in no way disadvantageous, since BUG loves to recur things and virtually every card is still a threat when I have access to it in my yard. Guided Passage only gets you a nonblue basic land (if your opponent is intelligent) and two other irrelevant cards. Plus you have to reveal your entire library.

I personally hate basic lands because I have better options available. When you're working with a limited budget, they're passable as inclusions. I would sooner put in duals of some kind that don't ETB tapped than put in basics.

ok, thanks for the advise, w

why did you take out vorenclex?

Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger proved to be too situational and underpowered. At the high level of competition, 8-drop creatures are not something you want to be holding in hand unless the win the game immediately. Vorinclex doesn't do that. Also, Deadeye Navigator proved to be a more versatile substitute given that it is useful after the infinite mana combo (for example, Deadeye Navigator can be used to get infinite mana and then be used again as part of the wincon with that infinite mana if there's a creature-based win strategy readily available for execution).

Man, Intuition for Tooth and Nail , Eternal Witness , and Snapcaster Mage is so sexy.

I like to announce Intuition by saying "at your EOT, you lose the game."

thats fair... what about Forbid , plus as you say, you dont mind cards being in the graveyard

Forbid isn't necessary. The problem is you have to discard two for it to be any better than Cancel . I never find myself with anything I can afford to discard. There are enough counterspells in the deck that not being able to buy one back is not really a problem. It's one thing to put two cards carefully chosen from your library into the graveyard, but it's another to have to make an on-the-spot decision of which two cards in your hand to lose. The latter is especially damaging to your tempo and advantage because it's limiting your immediate options whereas the former only takes from your library and the choice is much easier.

In my meta, I generally try to Terastodon the combo/control player before turn 4 in order to give myself a chance to win. Or bring in Omniscience before turn 4 or 5 to be able to win against the control player before they can get off the ground. It's a little cutthroat, but I just run threats, no true control, so I'm at a disadvantage against the combo player if I let them live or proceed with any land/permanents past turn 5 or 6 or so.

But about the deck, Sphinx of Uthuun is powerful with Deadeye Navigator , as I'm sure you've considered. If there was a way to get the interaction online sooner than t7, that might be useful, but I understand why you dropped it. I'm looking forward to seeing what new edh stuff rtr will provide.

One more thing: I've replaced some of the creatures that you mentioned were underpowered/unnecessary with (hopefully better ones, but I'm still just holding a place with Kaervek the Merciless . Would you suggest a specific creature to replace this one? Maybe Iona, Shield of Emeria ? Not quite sure currently :-(