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February 22, 2019 5:23 p.m. Edited.
As far as the substantive issue of "whoever draws the first broken card first wins" in a restricted list .. I think that's honestly even more difficult to determine than a clean NBLM... because idk how a single Mental Misstep changes things vs a single Preordain /probe.
February 22, 2019 4:21 p.m. Edited.
To anyone this applies to here: Any posts/points within posts that have not been addressed honestly have not been omitted maliciously or by design (no diabolical intent)... many things have been said and frankly this has hands down been the longest thread I've ever started. So that is my failure as a (moderator?) In this discussion... I truly didn't notice/was caught up in other posts/points on the topic.
February 22, 2019 4:01 p.m.
The idea here is merely to generate discussion not to score points or anything like that. Dismissal of an opinion isn't the same as disagreeing as I have acknowledged these opinions they just haven't changed my mind is all.... so far nobody has even touched the idea of compromising with a restricted list... I dont think that means people dismiss my opinion just disagree
February 22, 2019 2:49 p.m.
shadow63 Abrupt Decay was in regards to dealing with Chalice of the Void along with a slew of other cards that a theoretical jund deck could run that wouldnt exactly be going out of its way just be to prey on Eldrazi.
I think that is a really interesting perspective noting the offensive powers of modern cards vs/kept in line with defensive legacy cards cdkime...Modern doesn't have Force of Will and i think that gets a lot of mileage until Modern banned Mental Misstep .
Blood Moon is a card that is only playable in very specific metagames. For it to be worth playing in Legacy, it has to more-or-less win you the game by itself. If your opponent can still cast spells and gain value from the cards in their hand through a resolved Blood Moon , you messed up somewhere. Maybe you shouldn't have had it in your deck, or maybe you shouldn't have cast it. Whatever the case may be, Blood Moon 's power comes from its ability to shut off entire strategic lines of play. If it's not doing that, don't play it....for those thinking that eventually those Mountain s will turn into a resolved spell/answer then again the tempo swing is in favor of the Blood Moon deck...
Blood Moon is great fine and dandy but its not the only thing vailable to the modern card pool (8th edition forward)... Chrome Mox into a T1 Damping Sphere might not be the same as a T1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben however the point is; Modern has tons of defensive power availible to it. It just comes in different forms. hence why NBLM doesn't exactly equate to legacy... but imitation is the best form of flattery they say.
February 22, 2019 10:18 a.m.
IAmTheWraith this discussion is just for fun/speculation (im not demanding change)... its a bit tricky to analyze the metagame with the printings of newer sets since cards "x-y-z" where originally banned; and so far im only aware of one MNBL event and have been told to never reference it or miracles again ..... Chrome Mox turning into a T1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben sounds menacing to put it lightly...normally this is when i would make an argument for answers to this "simply unbeatable" scenario but as DuTogira pointed out that wouldnt be factoring in the tempo swings involved in that exchange... but at least we now know that T1 Thalia is the deck that beats eldrazi.
I think a lot of people take for granted the skill/luck factor involved in these games. as well as underestimate a willing playerbase....people love to win as well as break cards....in the end i see a lot of busted vs busted vs busted which honestly just sounds amazing in reguards to a competitive card game.
February 21, 2019 10:56 p.m.
your probably right.... in its context it was more aimed at making the case that some decks cant be beaten/hated out (am i wrong Vman?)....as in caw blade couldnt be beaten unless you played caw blade?.... I argue that this is not the case for eldrazi and that it can be/will be beaten in a no ban modern environment.... i believe this to be true for any deck honestly.
February 21, 2019 11:46 a.m. Edited.
Eye of Ugin / Umezawa's Jitte / Cloudpost are the only cards i saw as a common theme in eldrazi brews that are currently banned (i would have to look deeper into that though)... so far when discussing eldrazi those cards at least havent really popped on the radar/discussion by name....mainly Chalice of the Void which is interesting.
caw blade was just something said earlier in this thread in in regards to a deck being unable to be hated out/kept in check....i respectfully disagree...i think there would be very very strong decks and certainly miricles and eldrazi are among them.... but i feel that there is opportunity for brewers to prey on them... whether its a super jund/manaless dredge i really couldnt say.
February 21, 2019 11:14 a.m.
i beg to differ lukas96 that the very point of discussing this is so that better minds/brewers in the community like SynergyBuild/ToolmasterOfBrainerd could contribute to the conversation or even go above and beyond and and playtest/theorycraft what no ban list in Modern would look like.... cuz initially i was met with
"Miracles is a deck that with Top and the other cantrips, especially with a way to counter a spell turn 1 and resolve top allows you to obliterate any opposing deck.
There would be no other deck.
Change my mind."
and then the conversation evolved from there with people thinking that Through the Breach or Caw-Blade would be too oppressive.... and now Eldrazi is the subject matter... yet little is being said about how Eye of Ugin is what is making it so oppressive.
its just really interesting stuff....and again i think Modern would be a fun and interesting format to play in even without a ban list.
February 21, 2019 10:57 a.m. Edited.
agreed BBD does specifically call out eldrazi as a predator...however; i think we can all agree that hinging all of our opinions off a single event is a little rash.
if Abrupt Decay /any form of removal/interaction not having the corresponding charge counters doesn't explain dealing with/playing around Chalice of the Void then i guess i just cant go any further with that...let alone delve into how with Ceremonious Rejection / Disdainful Stroke or Alpine Moon / Blood Moon / Damping Sphere or Infernal Reckoning or Ensnaring Bridge would combat an eldrazi deck.
February 21, 2019 9:50 a.m.
I dont tink its turn 2 death like you say. Show
"One thing that I found extremely interesting is that if you take the overbearing power of Eldrazi out of the equation, No Ban List Modern was actually less degenerate than regular Modern. Yes, decks were more powerful, but a lot of the powerful cards cancelled each other out. Games were actually fun, interesting and rich with decision points. I didn't get killed earlier than turn four a single time in the entire event, and most games I played lasted until turn 8-10 at the very least." - Brian Braun-Duin
as far as hyper aggro/combo are concerned that is just inherent risk of running/abusing such a low mana curve...you will be kept honest with Chalice of the Void , Mindbreak Trap or potentially Mental Misstep .... greedy mana bases will be kept in line with Blood Moon and company.... and if a deck demands having a perfect opening hand...thats a bit ridiculous/probably not a great deck to run but we do have Serum Powder ...maybe that can help affinnity out?
SynergyBuild Truthfully I am not asking anything. This thread was honestly just started just for fun/speculation challenging the idea that modern would die without the banlist. I am making the case that there are plenty of answers that have been printed post 8th edition to prevent any one deck from being an apex predator/have someone to answer to... but certainly some will command more respect than others as is the case in any environment.... btw i dig that your playtesting this!
February 21, 2019 9:26 a.m.
as said previously; some deck archetypes are stronger against others... all any archetype can do in a weak matchup is sideboard in tech to help them overcome what is hurting them the most in weak matchups/capitalize on a strong matchup.... i dont think Alpine Moon / Ceremonious Rejection are typically mainboarded.
February 21, 2019 8:24 a.m. Edited.
Abrupt Decay does a good job of dealing with chalice...or any removal that doesnt have the corresponding charge counters....and what exactly is preventing aggro/combo from beating eldrazi?
February 21, 2019 8:15 a.m.
"if it looks like a duck... quacks like a duck...".... no Chalice of the Void is certainly not a permission spell that goes on the stack; but i think its obvious that its role in anyones deck is similar to Blood Moon in the sense that they are Restricting and denying resources and actions of the opponent... people who run Chalice/Moon build their decks around them....and in time the meta adapts to this.
when it comes to actual tournament results...i dont think one event is enough to be conclusive...so all anyone can do is theory craft. This is where i was going with "Aggro beats Control, Control beats Combo, Combo beats Aggro" fundamentals as well as making a case for new cards thats have been printed since Eye of Ugin with Ceremonious Rejection / Disdainful Stroke .... Alpine Moon ... Damping Sphere Infernal Reckoning and more....
with these things in mind i dont think decks are going to have to go "All-in" to beat eldrazi" anymore then just being aware it exists on the competitive scene like anything else.... Miricles placed 2nd in the actual tournement/event in a field of eldrazi...
Eye of Ugin is powerful but there are several accessible answers to it in the same way.....take jund for example....hand disruption with Thoughtseize ...easy enough to throw in Alpine Moon and Abrupt Decay / Assassin's Trophy .....there is just so much removal...like a lot of removal... to be able Fulminator Mage /Fulminate a land, Bloodbraid Elf /Cascade into Kolaghan's Command /K-Command, get Fulminator back.... im just not convinced that eldrazi cant be dealt with.
as far as the mulligan scenario is concerned... Serum Powder exists...but nobody is always gonna have there best cards every game...thats why its a game.
February 21, 2019 7:27 a.m.
any thoughts on Asylum Visitor some tribal draw?
February 20, 2019 10:30 p.m.
ooooooh! this is neat! when i first saw Profane Command i rolled my eyes...until i realized what was happening here... very cool versatile brew! do you have any thought about Swiftfoot Boots / Lightning Greaves for giving combo creatures haste/protection from spot removal?
February 20, 2019 9:52 p.m.
oh i can definitely agree with that DuTogira... i dont see this actually happening (removal of the ban/switch to a restricted list) anytime in the near future... granted i would welcome it but i dont exactly represent the majority of WoTC's player base/investors lol.
my argument/devils advocate stance is purely in the realm of balance of the would-be-modern format...i dont think that with the card pool available printed from 8th edition forward that we would just be ruled by one deck to rule them all/still have a healthy environment without having the sins of uber busted cards like Ancestral Recall .
February 20, 2019 9:26 p.m.
again i agree with you; eldrazi is not a control deck...but Chalice of the Void is a control card...and that was where my food chain of rock paper scissors of "this beats that and that beats this" cam into play with the article i posted (it was more about the principles/concepts).... afterall there are more than just 3 archetypes... Thoughtseize is a control card as well and is in many Midrange decks as they use early elements to control the game to then turn a corner and before applying pressure with efficient creatures....just because a deck uses control spells/aspects doesn't make it all out control in the same way as using an early creature doesn't make you an aggro deck
several anti-eldrazi pieces have been pointed out throughout this thread.... Eye of Ugin is powerful but there are several accessible answers to it in the same way.....take jund for example....hand disruption with Thoughtseize ...easy enough to throw in Alpine Moon and Abrupt Decay / Assassin's Trophy . without "Going out of your way to hate out a deck."
DuTogira I tend to think as the Format itself as a ban list.... meaning 7th edition and before arent gonna be used/are "banned" (unless reprinted)....with that mindset (assuming no cards in any format were banned to keep it fair/sake of argument).... Standard < would be the Modern's punk @$$ little brother as < Modern is just legacy's punk @$$ little brother
February 20, 2019 8:29 p.m.
i do agree that eldrazi isnt a control deck in the purest sense and there are definitely more than just 3 archetypes/combinations but generally these basic rules still apply. but the endgame is that the answers are available... Chalice of the Void is a control card all day everyday; which is why eldrazi > storm/combo.
February 20, 2019 7:04 p.m.
SCORE: 8 | 5 COMMENTS | 1291 VIEWS | IN 4 FOLDERS
|Playing since||Eighth Edition|
|Avg. deck rating||10.44|
|Favorite formats||Archenemy, Planechase, Modern, Casual, Arena [BETA]|
|Suppressed formats||Standard, Commander / EDH, Tiny Leaders, 1v1 Commander, Pauper EDH, Canadian Highlander|
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