[Community Discussion]: What are your opinions about barrier to entry?
Economics forum
Posted on May 30, 2014, 4:09 p.m. by Epochalyptik
Let's face it. Magic can be expensive. If you want to get results in a competitive setting, you might easily be pressured to spring for costlier decks. Many of the top cards, especially in deeper formats, tend to cost something with double digits.
Even Standard, which is perhaps the most widely-supported format, has been criticized. ISD-RTR Standard had the highest barrier to entry in recent memory, if not of all time. Competitive players were almost obligated to play three- or four-color midrange with shocks and expensive creatures.
Granted, things have changed in the past few years. Currently, Standard is less expensive than it was. Modern has also become more open. Modern Masters helped ease the pain of acquiring some of the older staples. Recent reprints of shocks, Thoughtseize , and Mutavault improved availability and gave Standard players a way to transition into Modern.
Still, players sometimes find it hard to make the jump into competitive play in any format. Many just don't have the disposable income or spare cash to put together a tier one deck. Some aren't bothered by that fact, and some are.
What are your thoughts? Do you think the barrier to entry is reasonable? Too high? Should something be done to alleviate it? If so, what?
teamplayerx says... #3
If your a smart player and a hard worker in life, this game is not that bad on the budget.
May 30, 2014 4:40 p.m.
The barrier is getting way to high for the older formats, I was looking at my collection of ABUR duels Ive aquired in the past couple of years and after I looked at the price I almost threw up. Did you know that Volcanic Island is $300 now and about 3 months ago it was about half that.
May 30, 2014 4:40 p.m.
I think to get into magic it's totally reasonable sans playing in major tournaments, you can buy two event decks and take the best cards out to make one deck and it'll be out of the box competitive
But I find it silly that to even compete with my local meta you HAVE to run shock/fetch lands to even keep up, Which is sore on the wallet.
May 30, 2014 4:51 p.m.
Like most things the barrier to entry is low but the barrier to competition and high level play is extremely high. I think it's fine really. You're have no right to be the best and neither are you obligated to be.
May 30, 2014 4:59 p.m.
miracleHat says... #7
I personally dislike how expensive magic is. That is why i have the playgroup that i am with now, because we are just casual players. EDH is nice because you can make a cheap deck that is also semi-competitive at my lgs. Also, if you need staples, just wait and look out for some good deals. I have gotten two Plateau for $80, and 1 of them is german :) . Either way, if you want to be competitive, then it will cost you. All that matters is, how much do you feel it is worth it to play a hobby competitively.
May 30, 2014 5:16 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #8
I think ChiefBell hit the nail on the head. Nobody's forcing you to have to win all the time. Competitive magic creates format staples, the more players play the game, the more players require said staples...the more people that require them, the more the staples cost...especially once they're out of print. Somebody pop the bubble!!!
It does become stomach turning to see how much you've spent on a game over the past X years though...I choose not to count.
May 30, 2014 5:26 p.m.
I think it should depend on the format. I'm fine with Modern being a high entry format because it is inherently more competitive, but Standard is supposed to be something of a beginner pool. The barrier to entry is lower, but not lower enough.
Put another way, if you are regularly bringing decks with TCG prices in the $150 to $300 range to standard play, you should probably think long and hard about playing modern instead. I don't think a $250 netdeck belongs in standard play, save tournaments or that one time you simply must give that Dimir dude a beat-down.
May 30, 2014 5:34 p.m.
Haha yeah MindAblaze! I laugh everytime I look at my order history on star city...I also cry a little.
But I don't even consider myself close to a good player, sometimes you like like the cards for the card/art/flavour text. But then your just getting picky =P
May 30, 2014 5:35 p.m.
I play modern and EDH pretty exclusively. Sometimes I borrow a Standard deck and play an FNM with it.
I think an entry barrier is inevitable. Good cards will always be good cards. Good cards get played. Given that Magic is growing in popularity and seeing more and more competitive players, staples will become expensive.
I like how Wizards are strategically reprinting Modern staples in Standard legal sets. It lowers the barrier tremendously, and allowed me to start playing in Modern. I transitioned from Standard into Modern, simply because we now had access to the shock lands that previously were an amazingly tough price-barrier to jump over. The shocklands were at least 4 times as expensive in my area, so having them being reprinted in the numbers they were was simply a blessing to us.
A few cards remain extremely pricy, though. Stuff like Tarmogoyf , Vendilion Clique , Cryptic Command and of course the fetchlands still remain as a big blockade for me. I have about $50 each month for fun, and I can choose to spend it on cards (save up 3 months, get a Goyf.. Yay!) or stuff like movies and such.If these money rares were to fall dramatically, I would experiment a lot more with decks. I play R/B/W burn, a rather cheap deck. Only the mana base is really hurting me. If Wotc reprinted the fetches, I would be a happy man. I do not have the full set, and it's hurting my deck's performance.
I play with a competitive mindset and wish to go to bigger tournaments.. But I am being held back by the entry barrier. I do think I'd be a lot happier as a player if my cards weren't $20-60, but $5-20 instead.
May 30, 2014 5:48 p.m.
The barrier is there, but if you are able to understand host to get around it (like understanding that while it might miss creatures, Duress is almost as good as Thoughtseize at a fraction of the price) then you can play and be competitive in your meta. Will you always get in the money rounds? No. Will you compete with the "big boys" if you make the right switches and calls? You can and will, and earn a measure of respect for it.
May 30, 2014 6:26 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
I personally agree with xzzane, ChiefBell, and Deetoz, but I'll play devil's advocate for a bit.
It's true that nobody is entitled to be the best or play the best deck, but is the barrier to entry fair? Let's consider a casual player who wants to get into Modern. Before, his playgroup was fine with decks you could make out of a Deckbuilder's Toolkit and a Fat Pack. He doesn't need to have a tier one deck, especially because he's new to the format and still learning, but he doesn't want to get crushed right out of the gate. Does he have a way to do it?
Put less anecdotally, do enough "intermediate" options exist? Do players have enough ways to play a given format without getting destroyed and without spending the highest possible amount? We should be concerned with the number of viable options rather than simply the total number of options. Realistically, it's possible to build a deck on any budget, but the strength of that deck will vary drastically from price range to price range.
Furthermore, what do you believe is the right call for Wizards? They aren't obligated to reprint cards, but what is the optimal balance between (1) the aggressiveness of their reprinting policy, (2) the interests of the game as a TCG/CCG, and (3) the health and popularity of the formats?
May 30, 2014 6:27 p.m.
Is the barrier fair? No, it's not fair, but I can't really elaborate on it - that's life.
Money doesn't buy success; it buys options. Money buys choice.
Do intermediate options exist? I guess they do. You could argue that the most basic form of intermediate deck but instead of having... I don't know?....... 4x Tarmogoyf you have maybe 1x Tarmogoyf .
Aside from that is obviously the fact that there are plenty of rogue decks and known T1.5-2 decks in both standard AND modern that pull out wins.
May 30, 2014 6:36 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
To follow up on my last point, Wizards, as a means of supporting its player/consumer base, should be interested in increasing the popularity of sanctioned formats. This means they should consider how players balance motivation/desire to play in a certain format with the cost to play in that format.
Wizards is not obligated to make it possible for anyone to build a tier one deck in any format, but it should be concerned with making it possible for people to participate at a reasonable level in any format without excessive strain. Because Wizards has no direct control over the secondary market, their ability to raise or lower the barrier to entry to a format lies in their ability to design their products. By printing and reprinting playable cards, they influence the meta and the secondary market.
In recent years, we've seen Wizards make conscious efforts to reprint format staples in accessible products. Modern Masters brought back many of the older staples. Shocks, Thoughtseize , and Mutavault were all reprinted recently. We can reasonably assume that Wizards will continue to strategically reprint certain cards in certain products.
Do you agree with the way that Wizards is handling the situation? Do you think that they should do something else so as to improve the gain for the players or themselves? At what point do the company's interests have to stand against the player's interests?
These are the questions Wizards has to consider, and it's worth discussing them for that very reason.
May 30, 2014 6:39 p.m.
It's funny because the more popular a format becomes, the more expensive the cards become, according to general principles.
You could hypothesise that wizards reprinting modern staples constantly in a bid to increase access will create nothing but temporary lulls in what is generally an ever increasing price barrier. A way to slow the inflation - but never stop it.
May 30, 2014 6:45 p.m.
Well Epochalyptik, the company that makes the product that we, the consumer, buy, needs to understand that if we want to get a hold of a certain object, we want that available, or a reasonable facsimile thereof. When Thoughtseize was reprinted, it made a lot of people happy simply because they could find the card again, instead of having to scour the 'net or maybe getting lucky finding one at their LGS, especially in a small community like my own. I agree, Modern Masters put a lot of those staple cards back into easier access, and it was great to get my hands on Sarkhan Vol for less that $20, but that is just me. It is great to see things like that reprinted, and it does help the game, I think.
May 30, 2014 6:51 p.m.
actiontech says... #18
If I was the evil empire (Hasbro) I'd be printing all kinds of sets with major staples in them like Modern Masters. They make money off the initial pack sales only; they get nothing whatsoever for that Future Sight Tarmogoyf you just paid $150 for on eBay. They're much better off printing a limited release sealed product with a 1:2000 chance at a goyf that sells at $8/pack. The fact that they are not doing that says volumes about the management at WotC and they're ability to control their product.
I think there will be a very deliberate and measured approach to any reprinting. Wizards knows they need to keep their veteran player base and they can't do that if they cut the value of those collections in half (or worse.)
May 30, 2014 6:58 p.m.
actiontech says... #19
On a side note, I really wish I'd picked up 3 more Bayou s before the recent jump. I was ahead of the curve on the blue dual-lands but missed the bayou boat. Nevertheless, I'll cough up the cash if/when I need to in order to complete the playset. ABUR duals are a safer investment then gold is these days.
May 30, 2014 7 p.m.
how much do you spend on magic per month ? you have to be smart if you want to play competitively
i have seen people who spend hundred per month , yet dont have the cards they need. if you want some tips here they are !
dont buy unnecessary boosters , as your chances are not good enough, and you can save that 4 dollars per pack , and rather than buying a fat-pack , save up
find an fnm shop , like mine , that has free modern and standard fnms
buy from people , as they are impressed with money , and enjoy selling you shocks for 4 dollars
buy damaged and heavily played products , as they are 1 to 10 dollars cheaper
5.sell cards you dont need , or trade them
if you use my tips , even legacy will seem cheap to enter
May 30, 2014 7:39 p.m.
I will only speak to the standard environment. If net decks did not demand the monetary investment they do, many more people would just be playing the tier 1 deck that fit their style of play at the moment. At my local spot I would say 30% of the players are buying decks, and 70% build them. If I play 5 rounds, I'm probably playing 2 net decks. So that's 2 games of predictability (read:boring) and 3 games where I don't know whats coming (read:fun). If over 50% of my rounds were the same cards I would just stop going. That's not to say FNMs should play out the way I personally want them to, but as a player, I am not bothered by the higher cost of the most popular cards.
May 30, 2014 7:44 p.m.
The barrier to entry for EDH, Legacy, and Vintage is as high as it is because of the reserved list. Without it, I think we'd see all three formats in line with Modern prices. MtG:O isn't affected by the reserve list. Underground Sea , for example, is only $30 online, vs. $400 on paper. WotC's hands are tied here because they can't get rid of the reserve list. As such, the barrier to eternal formats will continue to remain as high as it is.
For a player like myself, I get frustrated not being able to play older formats simply because new players can't afford to get into the formats I like. However, I don't blame WotC for the barrier to entry on this one. They had no way of knowing the implications the reserve list would have on the future. A lot of players were upset over Chronicles and something needed to be done.
As for Modern, I think it's in a good place right now, despite fetches being obscenely high. I think with a few reprints here and there, like what we saw with Thoughtseize , it will become an accessible format to anyone who played Standard for three or more years. Once your cards rotate out, you can quickly transition to Modern by skipping out on a year of Standard to get format staples.
Modern Masters was, in my opinion, lukewarm. It gave us a lot of reprints, but the limited availability and short print run didn't do enough to lower prices on cards. Tarmogoyf is expected to hit $300 within the next year/year and a half. The fact you can't play any aggro or midrange deck with green (save a few niche decks) without four copies prevents a lot of players from getting into the format. That's just one example, and it continues to be problematic with other cards (Cryptic Command , Dark Confidant , etc.). If WotC wants Modern to thrive, they're going to have to come up with a strategy to lower the barrier to entry or the format will go the same way as Legacy and Vintage.
Standard is where the real problems are at. It's where new players come into the game. If their first impression is that they need a $300 deck just to go 3-2 at FNM, they'll quit the game. This is a lose-lose for everyone. WotC doesn't make money. Current players don't have opponents. New players can't have fun. The problem lies with the mythic rarity and WotC printing format staples and playables there.
You can't play control successfully and consistently right now without at least three copies of Sphinx's Revelation and a few planeswalkers. Likewise, it's really hard to play midrange decks without cards like Stormbreath Dragon or Polukranos, World Eater . Can you imagine what the price tag of Standard would have looked like last year if Restoration Angel and Thragtusk were mythics?
I'm fine with the Mythic rarity for cards like Army of the Damned , Ring of Three Wishes , Ashen Rider , Enter the Infinite , Medomai the Ageless ...things that ooze flavor or are build-around-me cards you don't want to open in Limited at a high frequency. But cards like Voice of Resurgence , Geist of Saint Traft , and Obzedat, Ghost Council need to stop. Leave the mythic rarity for the Timmies and Johnnies. Let Spike have his cards at rare.
I remember before the Mythic rarity was introduced, Standard was a lot cheaper, even adjusting for inflation. Ravager Affinity was one of the most expensive decks while it was in Standard before the bannings and could be built for about $200 ($260 in today's money). That was only because of 7 out of the top 8 for every major event for a year was Affinity. Imagine if they reprinted the same format (Onslaught/Mirrodin/8th. Edition) for Standard, but bumped Arcbound Ravager and AEther Vial to mythics. The price on both would double and the same deck that was $260 is now $300+.
That's what we have right now in Standard. I don't know how sustainable it is to have so many powerful mythic rares in the format. A lot of people I know have been leaving Standard or the game completely because of how much of a waste it is. Many of them are moving to Modern or EDH. This is really bad for WotC's bottom line because players are buying less packs.
May 30, 2014 8:01 p.m.
Well said sylvannos. I agree that the cards WotC can forsee being powerhouses should be printed at rare to increase availability. This might also make players re-evaluate some older rares and find new synergies because they aren't just looking at Mythics for power cards now.
May 30, 2014 8:28 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #24
My opinion? Meh.
But, I do have a full time, well paying job, and Magic is only one of three hobbies. The other two aren't that intensive on my money, so I do have some laying around, collecting interest in the bank.
If I were in highschool, I'd probably worry about budget decks, and in all honesty, I'd probably just be playing casually with friends, using the modern ban list, but not spending shit tons of money on highly competitive decks.
Now its like "Oh, I need fetches.... Ill just buy them two at a time..."
May 30, 2014 9:39 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #25
I think that the barrier to entry was rediculous during ISD-RTR, and that was when I started playing magic, so I was wondering for a while if I was just doomed to be a second class citizen for not wanting to pay 10-20 bucks per shock land, in a time when shock lands were imperative. I think that barrier to entry was way too high. I think Theros so far has been significantly more reasonable, as yes, some cards will always be expensive, but the good manabase is much cheaper, and the manabase tends to lead the format in my opinion.
Overall, you can build at least an FNM competitive deck for 60-120 bucks in this current format most likely, and possibly less depending on various factors. That's the cost of 1-2 new full price video games, and I personally think I get more value out of the cards, as they retain resale value, and I will spend more hours with a deck I have lovingly crafted and adapted than with a video game, no matter how fun. I think that Magic is always going to be expensive, but when it is possible to build reasonably competitive decks (albeit maybe not top tier) for that price range, the (standard) format is doing pretty well.
May 30, 2014 10:21 p.m.
As someone who is in high school and cannot afford to dump money into cards over about $30 each in EDH, let alone an entire playset of cards. I believe that this problem will always exist. I want to discuss each format however, uniquely and individually.
Vintage: Vintage is fine. There are no issues. If you want to play vintage, you need to dump money in the most expensive cards in the game. Vintage is for the "elite" as it were. Those with money to spare and nothing better to do with it.
Legacy: I believe legacy is also fine. There are budget legacy decks that are more affordable, but still competitive enough to justify budget. For example, landless dredge, a competitive legacy deck, can be built for about $200. This is still a hefty price tag, but one that is completely affordable in the legacy format.
Modern: Modern is tricky. The best cards in modern, the most expensive that is, are not always the oldest of cards. Unlike in vintage or legacy, the most expensive cards aren't necessarily the ones that are old. Alpha and Beta prints of original duels can run into the multitudes of thousands of dollars and are twenty years old. However in modern, cards that have been printed in the past few years are being played in playsets of quantities. For example, Zendikar block came out 5 years ago, one fourth of the time between ABUR duels and now yet a large quantity of those cards are incredibly expensive. (see fetchlands, jace, stoneforge, emrakul, kozilek, etc) An even better example is Liliana of the Veil . A card that sees a lot of play in modern came out two and a half years ago. In fact, the best example I could give of this is Deathrite Shaman . RtR came out what, two years ago? My point is, that new cards that are greater and better than previous cards is really the solution to our problem. Instead of re-printing old cards, simply create new ones that get better and better over time. We'll see the old cards, the one that were the "maybes" finally getting removed from the decks, and the new cards taking reign. While the old cards are good, wizards can make new cards that are better without really harming the older cards. People should expect the production of new cards, and the newer cards that might be slightly better mean that the older cards become affordable. An example of a card wizard could print that would make the modern format infinitely cheaper is a new fetchland cycle that only fetches one kind of land. It would be strictly worse than the current fetchlands, but it would be perfect for those on a budget. Or mono-colored decks that need deck-thinning. The best will always be the best, but give people on a budget more affordable options. We don't need the best, just cards that are close enough that we can compete.
Standard: I'm not particularly familiar with standard, but I've played enough, and won enough, that you can easily take down expensive decks with a $20 standard deck. You won't always bring in the money, but if you're intuitive and inventive enough, you can come up with a deck that will be able to do notable well. For example, an easy answer to Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a Bile Blight . I once disabled an Elspeth followed by an Ajani, Mentor of Heroes , Three 2/2 tokens and 3 1/1 tokens all instantly gone with Bile Blight. It's all about finding the net-deck weaknesses and countering them.
EDH: EDH is fine. it always has, and always will be. Requiring only one copy of each card means that even those who play competitive EDH have trouble reaching into the price range of modern decks. A competitive net-decked modern can easily hit 2.5k. I've seen only the most expensive of EDH decks reaching into that price range. And only those that also build around modern staples like Jace, the Mind Sculptor or vintage cards like Mishra's Workshop .
All in all, I think that simply the printing of new, unique cards that can compete with current ones or new cards that enable budget friendly versions of competitive decks is the solution to this problem.
May 30, 2014 10:35 p.m.
Speaking as someone who has played on and off for almost a decade, I came back in during RtR with no intentions of playing standard and I have not played standard since the first Ravnica block was still legal.
Modern really intrigued me, and I started in not knowing what a Meliri Pod was, much less that these decks can go for thousands. I traded and traded, then bought a few cards and had a really awesome Myr infect deck. First deck I played was Meliri Pod and got trashed. But my brew is still my favorite deck because it was mine.
All this to say I finally decided what I wanted to build next as a true competitive deck. This I built from scratch, bought all the cards myself, so I consider this an experience in barrier to entry. I was eating lunch and decided I wanted to build Merfolk. Not the most expensive deck ever built for Modern but not exactly cheap sitting at almost $500 once it was said and done. So the cost was high, yes, but I have found the best trick to combating this insane high cost was to buy 2 boxes of the newest latest set (I bought BotG and Nyx) and took most everything in the boxes and turned it over for what I wanted to build. It took planning, some smart bidding on trades, and being very proactive towards my goal. But the $500 deck that I now currently own in completion for a total of $200 in cost towards the boxes that I traded off. I only actually paid for 3 cards in the deck. So lets round that $200 up to maybe $250?
Long story short it can be done, on a decent budget with planning and fortitude to get it done. The issue I personally see, is older players not necessarily helping out the new comers in learning tricks of the trade. Like up trading, and planning a specific concept before going all willy nilly with buying packs unless you plan on using it as trade fodder. Does my Merfolk deck have fetch lands? No, but I've won 1st place with it and it works. Well.
May 31, 2014 12:30 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #28
Ok this is a true story. One day I was out wlth my son xxxxx and we were at Walmart, I hadn't played paper in a while and wanted to get in. I saw that Walmart had fat packs , boxes and single boosters of M12 so I said xxxxx lets get a fat pack and play MTG tonight. We had been playing DOTP and DOTP2012 on xbox360 for a couple years and I had a voucher for Grave Titan promo. So I decided to goto FNM and finally get DCI legit and my Titan and play my Jenky zombie brew and I hit 17th got my participation pack and pulled a Cemetery Reaper yea and bonus I got the random fnm Tormented Soul or something. Anyway I was sparked and I thought hay it was fun and really didnt cost me anything..5 bucks but I get 4.24 dollar pack if I loose so i'm in. After 8 weeks I had pulled together my first cheap top 8 deck and started into the world of prize pool. After $5 a week for 1 yr and trading and top 8s I had enough stuff in my binder to buy my next deck I wanted to play. So year 2 I got really competitive and cleared out my stockpile I earned at 5 a week and store credit got me my deck with the innistrad block I won 17 FNM and my collection not only got twice the size of my previous collection but it was worth 2x as much as well, Still to this day I dont spring money for cards , 5 a week and I won again tonight with my R/W Devotion recipe w/ Twinflame the whole top 8 including me split because it was 70 player FNM with top 8 cut all 8 of us got 29.00 store cred and I played off for the T.Hero being tied for 1rst and 2nd with xxxxx. Long story over and the moral is patience got me there at 5 a week and I have 2 tier 1 decks and 2 commander decks and a bazillion cards due to that fact. MTG dose not have to cost a fortune. I mean I can trade in cards to pay for FNM for the next 6 months and win twice as much as I traded in value wise from FNM wins over 6 months. I will never buy cards again other than entry fee's if that counts. MTG is not expensive if you can be patient and learn to trade and brew and hold on to stuff.
May 31, 2014 3:12 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #29
If I had to complain about a barrier I would complain that it cost to much at professional level organized play and only the wealthy can fly to enough opens and invitationals to reach enough pro points to qualify for champs. Wizards is banking, they should be working with DCI and throwing constructed playpalooza's free to enter that reap points.Hey the rich goto every tourney pro can play the free ones too. Because even if you were the best at this game, you would'nt ever be able to sit at the world cup table unless you made top 8 in 50 open , IQ or GP tournements. Its too expensive to be a boss at Magic.
May 31, 2014 3:36 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #30
As blatantly pointed out, the largest barrier is cost of cards to enter into competitive play, especially in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage.
Wizards has definitley catered to their brainchild of a format being Modern, however Legacy and Vintage are falling out of favor with new players due to the cost barrier. Legacy can be done on a budget, but when the land base alone costs $2,000 give or take (say Underground Sea , Tundra , Polluted Delta , Wasteland , and Scrubland for instance), it's a bit of a stretch.
Modern has been made easier to enter due to the Shocklands being reprinted and what not. Fetch lands are another story, but land bases have always been the most crucial, thus expensive, portion of the deck. Otherwise, most cards are quite affordable in comparison to Standard. Jace, the Mindsculptor once sat around $90-100 while in Standard, comparable with Goyf, Bob, Karn, and Lily.
As an older player and collector I can value the Reserve List to an extent, however I also see it as a nail in the coffin of Legacy. Without some kind of reprint of key Legacy cards, namely lands, the competitive format will be restricted to the elite. As the years progress, the cards will continue to increase in value beyond feasable attainable limits, hence the Glacial Chasm will grow. This has happened with Vintage.
Now, I'm not saying the Power Nine should be reprinted by any means, however some kind of limited print run to breath new life into Legacy needs to happen in order for the format to thrive. Judge foil Force of Will s don't count, IMO... :-)
May 31, 2014 4:03 a.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #31
If Wizards would like to open the formats up without hitting the TCG/CCG people, it would be simple enough to reprint/rename cards. Don't want your Tarmogoyf to lower in value? Have no fear, the "Devouring Python" is here. Same card, different name. Those would be easier for players to get their hands on, and the collectors still win because nothing beats the originals. Just like Searing Spear/Lightning Strike and many other renamed cards.
May 31, 2014 4:14 a.m.
I don't see how renaming a card and giving it the exact same ability is NOT going to hurt the value of a card... If I can get a hold of "Devouring Python" why would anyone want to spend the money on a goyf?
May 31, 2014 5:01 a.m.
And even worse, you don't want 8x copies of gofy running around. That's just crazy.
May 31, 2014 5:08 a.m.
teamplayerx says... #34
I played G/r monsters before BOrn of the gods and that decks was fun but nearly $500. Now I play something half the price mainly all due to lands being still high value. Still hard on wallet, but I shopped around and traded most of the GR monster deck in, I just hate rotations that will be tough I think.
May 31, 2014 5:59 a.m.
Haemogoblin says... #35
I started playing standard and have since stopped playing on paper completely. Prohibitive costs doesn't even come close, sure you can spend 10/$15 on something fun but if you want to enjoy winning then you have to pay for that privilege. With the same 4 net decks going round and round the barrier to enjoyment is even higher. The same 3 opening turns over and over versus anything you've come up with gets really boring stupendously fast. If I hadn't been into magic for so long I would never be able to get into it today.
May 31, 2014 8:20 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #36
I'm very OCD when it comes to card condition. I find it discouraging when I order a staple from Star City or ABU Games that is listed as mint/near-mint, only to find it scratched and dirty. For me that's the hardest hurdle to overcome when I build competitive decks. The difficulty of locating staples in an acceptable condition, especially for older cards, gets to be a big pain for me. I know others don't value condition as much as me, but I simply won't own or play a damaged card. I still play, so it hasn't been an insurmountable barrier to entry, but it is discouraging and it renders my competitive deck building a very slow process sometimes. Anybody else ever feel like this?
May 31, 2014 10:43 a.m.
I personally don't use anything under MP, but I usually go for NM or LP. I want my cards to last, so that they feel worth the investment. I cringe every time I see someone playing with a walker that has been bent or torn or is peeling away in any way.
May 31, 2014 11:33 a.m.
It depends on the format. Despite people saying Modern is an expensive format, there are relatively wallet-friendly, reasonably high tier decks, like BG Infect or Mono-B Discard (only Ensnaring Bridge is really expensive). Even more famous decks like Soul Sisters isn't that expensive. While I do agree that Modern as a format is in general expensive (looking at you, Jund), there are definitely budget options that can be almost as powerful as top tier decks like Naya Zoo and Jund.
Standard, on the other hand, varies wildly from Standard to Standard. ISD-RTR was absolutely crazy. RTR-THS was relatively OK by that standard (pun intended). But one issue I have with Standard is that it rotates, meaning that people have to sell their previous decks earlier enough to get enough money to buy cards for the next Standard. Plus there aren't usually very many budget-friendly, yet competitive Standard decks. Nobody's seriously going to think that Zhur-Taa Druid , Elite Arcanist and Triton Tactics is a legit deck, no matter how cool it looks.
That's why I think that in the long run, a non-rotating format like Modern or Commander is probably safer on the wallet. But does Magic as a whole have a high barrier to entry? Not really, considering there's a really cheap and fun format called Draft.
May 31, 2014 11:58 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #39
I have a friend that plays without sleeves. Walkers, everything. Makes me very uncomfortable. It ruins the monetary value of the card. They are his belongings, so I know it's irrational to feel that way, but to me it seems irresponsible. But I'm pretty up tight about condition, so there's that. Anyways, the point I was making earlier was that the difficulty of finding cards in good condition, especially from older sets, presents a significant barrier to someone like me who is excessively fastidious when it comes to card care.
May 31, 2014 12:01 p.m.
I play without sleeves but I use a playmat or something to keep it off the nasty tables.
May 31, 2014 12:17 p.m.
I really enjoy how many cheap decks there are in modern. It's such an interesting, well regulated format. I honestly believe that sensible decision choices and a tight and refined ban list can help a format flourish into one where even the T2 decks have reasonably good chances against those in the higher tier.
The problem with any standard is that there's a limited card pool which removes some aspect of creativity and variety. Because the card choice is limited, there are fewer cards that become staples ie. - more people want the same card. Whereas in modern, due to the greater variety, not everyone wants exactly the same thing. This means that in modern, compared to standard, there's a wide variety of very playable cards that are very cheap.
May 31, 2014 12:27 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #42
xzzane's very first post in this thread has a really important concept for this discussion. Competitive Magic is a sport, and every sport requires that you spend at least some money on gear in order to play. It might be a full set of pads, skates, and a hockey stick, or it might just be a good pair of sneakers and a basketball. The stories people have shared here so far show the whole spectrum from Tier 1 to Budget in terms of investment.
If a player has to balk at the barrier to any given format, there are other options he can start with instead. For a very long period of time, the only sanctioned events I played in were Limited formats, where the only barrier is the initial entry fee. Besides that, I just played casually with friends and acquaintances, buying booster packs and singles as needed to build new decks, improve existing ones, and trade with other people. If any of us friends wanted to play the odd FNM here and there, we'd pool resources, build some budget-ish decks, and go. We do similar things nowadays if there's a nearby SCG Open, PTQ, GP, or other significant event.
I've been playing a lot more Standard nowadays than I ever have (mostly because all the friends and acquaintances don't have as much time for casual play anymore), and admittedly a big part of the reason I'm able to do that is because of my current money situation. Another big thing, however, is all the other stuff I built up over the years being available to trade away to people who want Commander, Modern, or Legacy material. I'm not shy about trading a pile of old cards I'll never get around to using for a couple Standard staples needed for a new deck.
Magic as a game and a hobby is open to everybody, with the only true barrier being the cost of some boosters and maybe an Intro Pack or Event Deck. Magic as a sport is different, and there are just going to be some players for whom it will take a good amount of time and resources to work up to getting over the barrier for their format of choice.
May 31, 2014 1:07 p.m.
That is really the best point made so far. Anyone can play with almost no up front costs compared to competitive play. You want to play to win, you need to expect to pay a little bit more money.
May 31, 2014 7:40 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #44
Now hold on, Magic definitely isn't pay to win.
You can spend hundreds of dollars on say..... Melira Pod (since everyone's hating on it lately), but if you have no idea how to play it, then you are going to get stomped.
Same goes for all the archetypes. You can build and buy whatever you want, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to how you pilot the deck. The barrier to entry for Modern, may seem high due to prices, but too many people speculate too much on the prices of cards. Modern is in a good position right now, where as long as you can pilot your deck well, and make the right plays in the right situations, you stand the same chance of top 8ing that everyone else stands.
May 31, 2014 7:49 p.m.
DreamGoddessLindsey says... #45
Yet even the best players in the world couldn't consistently take a cheaper and/or all common/uncommon deck and win regularly with it.
Skill goes a long way, lots of money takes you to the top. A pauper deck would never win a Standard Pro Tour.
May 31, 2014 8:17 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #46
I would argue that the barrier of entry for the Modern format is unfair. The intermediate options are there, but even those options possess expensive staples. I'm not super competitive, so things like fetchlands don't bother me too much, but I am among those who are calling for a fetchland reprint. Their prices are obscene right now. I think Wizards is currently striking a good balance with the reprint policy, but to be blunt, I think Modern Masters was a long term disaster. Sure, some cool and important cards were reprinted, but it wasn't enough by a long shot.
May 31, 2014 8:38 p.m.
vampirelazarus I hate to be that guy, but I think you're way off here. Yes, obviously no deck is perfect, and every deck has its weaknesses, but knowing how to build a deck is just as important as knowing how to pilot it. But it comes down to a bad deck is bad and can't be piloted by the best player in the game while expecting a victory.
May 31, 2014 8:44 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #48
I said nothing about decks and their weaknesses, or even knowledge on deck building. All I said was that if you can pilot your deck well, you have a chance.
May 31, 2014 8:58 p.m.
That's the issue with your original statement, it said nothing about deck building. It doesn't matter how well you can pilot a deck, you can't polish crap into a decent deck.
May 31, 2014 9:04 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #50
Sure you can.
You just need a formula to turn fecal matter into cardboard.
Piloting a deck is a skill that is absolutely necessary. I stand by what I said. If you spend thousands on a deck, and have no idea how to play it, you are going to lose. Modern's card pool is large enough, and balanced enough, to reward originality. We've seen some of that recently, anyone remember the Fist of Suns tron deck?
xzzane says... #2
I think when you get down to it most things have a certain barrier to entry. If you're into any sport or hobby there is almost always a high entry cost of equipment and necessary gear. Magic is the same as everything else. It has an entry cost, but once you get past it, it's pretty much free to play (Not counting the standard $5 FNM entry fee of course).
May 30, 2014 4:26 p.m.