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When Sylvan Primordial enters the battlefield, for each opponent, destroy target noncreature permanent that player controls. For each permanent destroyed this way, search your library for a Forest card and put that card onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library.
|Want (2)||Mlord , amhamh24|
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|Commander: Rule 0||Legal|
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Sylvan Primordial Discussion
6 months ago
As someone who enjoys high power play, stax, and other things often considered degenerate, I say "good riddance". Any card that can singlehandedly turn you into the archenemy is not healthy or very fun. It's why Leovold was banned, why Sylvan Primordial was banned, and, honestly, half the commander banlist.
6 months ago
The MH2 Artifact Lands enter tapped. That's big enough to balance them. See, affinity wants busted turn one plays, and these don't allow for that. While they still get busted turn two plays, they aren't able to be nearly as aggressive as they could be with the OG Artifact lands, which prevents the artifact lands from being actually problematic.
Storm requires a ton of support to be good, and even then it still needs a good storm card. You need mana generation of the correct colors, you need good engines to keep casting spells, and you need good enough cantrips for the combo to function. Most of the new storm cards are green and white. White, obviously, has none of the things needed for storm to work. Green doesn't either. The only new storm card that's good as a win con is the Squirrel one, which is hard to make work in Modern, but has been breaking Pauper. I believe they forgot to think of Pauper when making that one. But the rest are totally fine because what they do isn't inherently broken.
Pitch Spells, like Force of Will or the Incarnations, and the Pacts are all fully balanced. They are good because they provide an effect for a significant non-mana cost(or, in the case of pacts, a delayed mana cost) for a playable effect. These are the cards that prevent format warping. Why? Because it's incredibly difficult to justify running them if they don't answer a commonly seen threat, such as way-too-early comboing. The cost is just too great to counter Path to Exile with Force of Negation outside of specific board states.
The commander-based free spells, IMO, are mistakes. They're passable because the commander format is typically 4 players, meaning that whatever you can do, it's probably not better than what 3 players can do. Outside of, say, Hullbreacher+Wheel(breacher needs ban), or the fortunately banned Flickering of Sylvan Primordial , which are better than what 3 other players can do.
Phyrexian mana has only been a problem with 1 mana cards. Probe and Misstep, as well as Gut Shot, Growth and Revival, are easily played in any deck and 2 life is minimal for a free mana. However, none of the cards with at least one non-phyrexian mana in their cost are all that broken. While Dismember is good, remember it costs 4 life and one mana to cast at cheapest, and that's quite a bit.
I could see them bringing Phyrexian mana back, but with costing similar to Dismember where it costs a good amount of life and at least some mana to use. Maybe a Negate or something.
8 months ago
It is true that the deathtouch package will be worse in multiplayer games since you have more threats to deal with. I think siding into a bigger ramp package would be a good idea. I would caution though that it's important to add in more mana dorks or ramp spells to keep pace with any new bombs you include or you'll find yourself mana screwed a lot of the time.
I went ahead and added my creature-based commander deck so I could link it for reference. It was built from a casual 60-card skeleton that's quite similar to your deck, so some of the ramp cards I've had success with over the years might do well here too.
deck: Predator's Toolkit
Prowling Serpopard or Destiny Spinner could be useful tech if counters are flying around left and right. Vigor is definitely strong against board stalls, and I like Archetype of Endurance against a lot of common removal. Somberwald Sage and Elvish Piper would probably be my first picks for dropping haymakers early without much other support. Yeva, Nature's Herald and Seedborn Muse are particularly disgusting in multiplayer since you essentially play on every turn. Some final bombs I love are Whiptongue Hydra for flyers, Polukranos, World Eater for other creatures, and Sylvan Primordial for most anything else.
For your existing ideas, I think Worldspine Wurm is good if your games go long enough to cast it while Tempt with Discovery is good if you don't have opponents who greatly benefit from the mana. I'm still iffy on Lumberknot in a deck not based around token sacrifice, and I'd probably just run Dungrove Elder if you need a midrange hexproof creature. Hydra's Growth is very good with additional +1/+1 synergy, Kazandu Tuskcaller needs more token synergy, and Strixhaven Stadium feels optimistic in multiplayer. For the bigger cards, I think Vigor , Soul of New Phyrexia , Toski, Bearer of Secrets , Verdant Sun's Avatar , and Vivien Reid are all playable. Myojin of Life's Web needs some way to refill the hand or its ability will never do anything that impactful. Impervious Greatwurm is the weakest option since it gets completely stuffed by chump blockers. I used Connive / Concoct to reanimate it in standard and still found it to be too slow. If you had a Warstorm Surge or something, maybe it'd be a different story...
1 year ago
1 year ago
As someone without a consistent playgroup, I think a banlist is good to have; it allows a mostly consistent play environment from store to store, and without it there would be a million U/G decks built around Prophet and getting as many Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial clones as possible. However, there are a few cards like Braids, Cabal Minion or Worldfire that are by no means worse than cards that are allowed, like Worldpurge or Static Orb.
1 year ago
sergiodelrio, I'm pretty sure I was thinking of Gemrazer, which I misread. Still, the Harmonize color pie break that was so egregious years ago makes no sense today as green has some of the best card draw and card advantage tools, even surpassing blue when used in creature heavy decks. My main problem lies in their interpretation of the color pie, which I feel is boring and heavily supports planeswalker and creature heavy strategies while also managing to make white even weaker and black and red boring.
I don't keep up with standard, so I was basing that statement off of my misreading of Gemrazer, but I still dislike the spot GB has as the premier color combo for permanent removal when WB seems like the natural choice for permanent removal and RB just seems like it has slightly worse options when both those colors have philosophies of destruction. Anyway, here are some examples of green permanent destruction in Pioneer: Bramblecrush, Destructor Dragon, Display of Dominance, Nessian Demolok, and Sylvan Primordial.
1 year ago
Alright, in hypothetical Larryland where I am now in charge of making decisions, here is what I would do
First, establish criteria for the format
Shouldn't be too complicated, as there has already been lots of time spent discussing the format
- Bans should serve to stop certain combos or deckbuilding approaches from swallowing the meta.
- Bans should be justified off of power level for winning, not how fun or unfun the combo or style of deck is to play or play against
- General rules changes about the format should serve to open deckbuilding and allow for more interesting approaches to the meta and winning.
I think a couple rules changes should take place to open deckbuilding and allow more options, and allow cards to work as intended with the commander specific ruleset
- Commanders should hit the graveyard before returning to the command zone. This allows commanders like Child of Alara or other death triggers to actually function as intended while maintaining the command zone. Commanders should have the option of returning to the CZ at will from exile, the graveyard, the library, or a player's hand as an ability that doesn't use the stack, similar to mana abilities.
- Hybrid mana symbols should be perfectly legal as long as the hybrid symbols fulfill a color identity of your commander. For example, Boros Recruit should be legal in a mono-red deck. If a hybrid mana card has a mana symbol in the text box that it outside the color identity, it should still be excluded. For example, if Boros Recruit had a firebreathing ability for in the text box, it would no longer be legal in a mono-white deck.
- Restriction of the command zone to a single card. Partner commanders are still legal, but not legal to run them as partners in the command zone. Having a mix and match color identity and having guaranteed access to two cards at all times over one card is too strong. Bigger color identity means wider pool of cards to pull from, and the partner players are effectively starting with a 9 card hand as opposed to non-partner commanders starting with an 8 card hand.
Bans and Unbans
First, I would unban cards that the RC has banned because they are "unfun" or don't fit the spirit of the format
- Coalition Victory - If you can pull this off and cast the cost, go ahead and win
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - This costs 15 mana and channel is banned, this isn't going to break decks at all and most likely will only see play as an Ulamog alternate in Gitrog decks
- Erayo, Soratami Ascendant - This can be countered or removed or smart opponents can avoid triggering it. Once it has flipped, it is still removable although somewhat toxic. It definitely gets good mileage in EDH but people can play around this if they have even half a brain, which is what I would expect from competitive.
- Iona, Shield of Emeria - This is only banned now because Painter's Servant was unbanned. Certainly reanimator Iona strategies can cause problems, but hitting a 2 card combo for a soft lock isn't game shattering unless you are on a mono-colored deck, at which point it just becomes one of the things you must worry about. If Back to Basics and Blood Moon are totally fine for shitting on 3-5 color mana bases, I'm 100% fine with Iona for shitting on mono color decks.
- Library of Alexandria - I have no idea why this is banned in the first place. Most competitive decks are so tight on their land base and won't have a slot for this. Also most competitive decks wish to play spells on turn 1 and 2, which makes it harder to get the 7 in hand for the Library draw.
- Panoptic Mirror - If someone can assemble the ultra fragile Mirror + Free turn spell, and then gets an ENTIRE ROTATION of no one destroying it, I'm 100% fine with them taking infinite turns. Also consider that this combo basically costs to start, 5 for cast and 5 for the free turn. This card is banned because casuals absolutely loathe combos. Its unbanning could make Pox decks somewhat viable in competitive, and would be a boon to stax decks as well
- Primeval Titan - This card is a double tutor on ETB or attack, but its a double tutor for lands. If someone really wants to set up Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers + Deserted Temple + Inventors' Fair (which fetches Rings of Brighthearth) then more power to them, as it requires either a blink effect or an entire rotation to THEN get the second set of tutors from attacking. Its big value, but honestly no reason for this card to be banned. It costs to cast
- Paradox Engine - the banning of this card made the format worse, as it knocked out tons of viable decks simply because "Too many casuals put down rocks and PE and oops into an infinite". The unbanning of this card opens up the format significantly, and allows weird decks like Hannah, Ship's Navigator or Dralnu, Lich Lord to be viable commanders, although definitely not tier 0 picks.
- Recurring Nightmare - Banned because of griefing almost 100%. Nobody likes being hit by some ETB creature that involves saccing or losing permanents, but it isn't fast enough to warrant a ban. It requires mana, AND a creature on the field, AND a creature in the GY.
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - Selvala is basically a more powerful version of this because of the cantrips and you can play non-basic lands. This would probably become a tier 1 deck by basically copying the Selvala list, but I think the meta would be enriched from adding this as an alternate, similar to how Marwen has added instead of detracted from the meta.
- Sundering Titan - Banned because attacking a player's resources is seen as an unfun way to win. Its expensive to cast and not exactly game shattering when it enters.
- Sway of the Stars - This costs to cast for a weird Timetwister that sets life totals to 7. Sure there is potential for abuse with Suspend cards, but this costs 10 mana. Nobody is going to play this if it gets unbanned.
- Sylvan Primordial - Another board state changer that isn't really going to do as much as it looks when it lands. Sure, -3 permanents on board for opponents and +3 lands is neat, but it costs . Decks would rather win than assemble some blink or recursion loop for this card.
- Upheaval - This is banned almost entirely from a casual and time perspective. It makes games take longer. In competitive though, this card would be used with excess floating mana to THEN rip your combo. Almost definitely wouldn't see competitive play though, and the banning seems silly to me.
- Worldfire - If you can run a wacky suspend deck that abuses this to win, you have my blessing. It also costs to cast so someone will probably just win before you
- Yawgmoth's Bargain - This is a Necropotence that costs with the benefit of no-delay on the draws. If necro is legal, this should be legal.
My biggest reasoning for bans is that some combos are so strong and so hard to interact with that they become the go-to builds for certain color identities. When the optimal way to build 30 different commanders in the same color pairing is Flash Hulk, you have run into a problem.
- Flash - Arguably the worse part of Flash Hulk. Potential for abuse in a post-Hulk world with Academy Rector. This card has the potential for abuse with every single new creature printed. I don't think this card makes the meta more interesting, and I think it pigeonholes deckbuilding into "well why don't you run Flash Hulk, or Flash _". Flash combos are also difficult for other decks to interact with outside of Counterspell, which means when you're building for playing in a competitive meta, you are almost expected to play Blue due to how strong and warping this card is.
- Protean Hulk - Even with a flash banning I still wand this turd of a card gone. Finding hulk, reanimating hulk, and sacrificing hulk isn't interesting. There isn't very much skill there. The decks aren't interesting. There is a combo in practically every color combination for winning immediately after you get a Hulk trigger. It can be viewed as a 6-card into-play tutor, or a 5-card into-play tutor, etc. etc. I don't think the meta is more interesting or better for having this card be legal.
- Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact - More boring and tired combo archetypes. Once again, tutoring for 2 cards and ripping the Consultation + Oracle combo doesn't really require much pilot skill, and it doesn't make decks more interesting to build. These cards are simply too efficient at what they do, and they are hard for non-blue decks to interact with meaningfully. The presence of this combo and Flash Hulk has basically relegated all stax decks to being tier 2 builds, as they have such an impossible time locking down these combos. The banning of these two cards and Flash Hulk would bust the competitive meta wide open. Also, between these cards or the Laboratory Maniac + variants in the combo, these are the cards that are way way way more degenerate than the other part of the combo.
- Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora - These are annoying and burdensome mono-blue staples that slow gameplay, and are auto-includes in practically any deck that includes blue. They function much better than intended due to the multiplayer nature of the format, and deckbuilding is less interesting and diverse because these cards are legal. They can singlehandedly run away with games when you have a single player in the pod who ignores them, and having your combo shut down because someone draw a Force of Will after getting 6 free draws is frustrating and extremely obnoxious. They also prop up extremely mediocre mono blue decks like Urza, Lord High Artificer and Baral, Chief of Compliance. Once again, I don't really think there is any skill in playing or building around this card, and the power level of "auto-include for any deck with blue" stifles deck building. Blue really doesn't need any help being good in EDH, let alone cEDH.
- Nature's Will and Druids' Repository - Targeted bans for Najeela, the other obnoxious tier 0 commander deck in the current meta. I'm not a huge fan of 1 card combos with commanders, because you always have one of the cards available at all stages of the game, and tutoring + playing a single card once again doesn't really speak to high skill or interesting deck building. The banning of these cards will peripherally splash and hit other decks, such as Edric, Spymaster of Trest, but I'm fine with that. Najeela and Edric will still have other options for executing these combos, such as Sword of Feast and Famine or Bear Umbra, but these are more mana intensive or more fragile combos with lower utility outside the combo.
- Tymna the Weaver - I have already advocated for removing partners from the command zone, but this card is so dummy strong as to be included in the 99 of other decks with some frequency. You can get the draws even if Tymna didn't attack (i.e. it just came in). You can get 3 draws a turn for the same mana cost as Phyrexian Arena, except that if done correctly you'll get the draws before you would get the Arena draws. This card is meta warping, this and Najeela are a big part of the reason the meta is so creature heavy right now. Decks either run this card, or they run ways to handle this card because a Tymna sitting on the board for 1-3 rotations gives such a fat advantage the pilot runs away with the game.
- Timetwister - A card that sees play because you save slot efficiency by spamming TT to create a loop of infinitely recasting spells, plus its a wheel effect for 3 mana that shits on decks assembling combos through the GY with cards. I'm totally hunky dory with high efficiency combos, but losing to a timetwister loop is boring, cumbersome, and takes the pilot 30 years to demonstrate and explain the loop to those who haven't seen it. Combined with the ridiculous price of the card, and the ridiculous powerlevel even outside the combo, this card should go. This is also another card that makes fast mana extremely degenerate, as someone going first and sticking Mana Crypt into Sol Ring into Chrome Mox into Timetwister feels extremely bad, and opponents don't even have the benefit of recurring their starting hand from the GY later on.
- Sylvan Library - The green Rhystic Study. Doesn't make decks more interesting. Doesn't make games more interesting. Its just cheap ways to get cards that becomes more ridiculous in the context of a format where you have double the starting life of the format this was printed for. The auto-include nature of this card means decks open up more when this card is removed.
- Lion's Eye Diamond - No, Razakats is not an interesting combo. No, bomberman is not an interesting combo. These are both degenerate and more shoe-horn "oh I need a combo to win" style combos. Bomberman is extremely degenerate as LED can be recovered in the face of targeted GY removal by simply stacking the Salvager trigger on top of the removal if you have extra floating mana, and pretty much the only way to really stop it is a replacement effect like Rest in Peace. Seeing someone play a bomberman combo then dump mana into their outlet from the CZ (whether it be Thrasios, Triton Hero or Breya, Etherium Shaper) isn't interesting, although I will admit it is fast. This card is much lower on my list of requested bans, but it is still there for how annoying Bomberman and razakats are, plus how easy this makes Doomsday piles.
- Hermit Druid - I want this gone for the same reason Consultation and Pact should go. Boring deckbuilding that becomes "UGx deck can run Hermit and Oracle to win", and thus you end up with twenty different UGx decks that look the same. Once you have seen this combo once, there isn't much merit to seeing it again. This card isn't as bad as Consult or Pact in my opinion, and once again it is a much lower priority for banning than those cards, as it requires a haste enabler to make it truly degenerate, or a way to flash it in at EOT before your untap step.
Cards I would avoid banning
As the title reads, things I think aren't a problem but usually draw comments for bans.
- Cheap tutors like Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal - Every single 1 CMC tutor goes to top of deck (besides Gamble and Steelshaper's Gift), which means you're -1 card advantage for casting them. Having the ability to assemble combos or seek a problem solving card doesn't blow the format out of proportion. Having players be able to assemble threats in a timely manner makes the format faster and more interactive. If you see an opponent tutoring, you know to hold up interaction or try to race them. I'm more interested in removing hyper degenerate combos that are hard to interact with or are resilient enough to win through interaction.
- Fast mana like Mana Crypt or Mox Diamond - If fast mana is banned, all decks will require Green for speed purposes from the high amount of turn 1 dorks (read: accelerators) available. Stax would become 100% dead as an archetype with these bans outside of Hatebear builds that include Green.
- Free counterspells like FoW or Pact of Negation - Keeps combo decks in check. Similar to how Force of Will keeps Legacy from being overrun by super speed combos, these cards also keep Commander in check.
1 year ago
I'm gonna talk about the opposite and bring up Sylvan Primordial the card looks innocent I dont think it ever saw play outside of standard. But yet it can easily break games in edh