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At the end of each turn, each opponent loses life equal to the life he or she lost this turn. (Damage causes loss of life.)
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Wound Reflection Discussion
6 days ago
Good news - I just played a game with my Gitrog Monster deck. I slipped in my new (foil) Ob Nixilis, the Fallen and Scapeshift before the game (they just came in the mail). Around turn 8 I dropped Ob Nixilis with 2 land drops (making a 9/9 Ob), then played a turn 9 Scapeshift with 10 land on the battlefield, triggering Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. Killed two opponents with the 30 life loss, then swung with a 39/39 Ob and a 16/16 Gitrog (he had a Blackblade Reforged equipped) for the final kill. Too bad Ob doesn't have trample on board.
hkhssweiss - The win-con I just got to work tonight is kind of an example of what I meant with my last comment. With a large amount of basic lands, I can not just use scapeshift to trigger it, but Boundless Realms as well. So I was thinking I could limit the non-basics, perhaps to 12. Boseiju, Who Shelters All seems like a perfect fit when it's time to play my win-con. Arch of Orazca, I never appreciated much before, but I can see the benefit as a turn-by-turn mana sink if I find I'm land rich later on. Maze of Ith could be a great secondary pillow to have in there if I haven't gotten Glacial Chasm out yet. I see myself not wanting to use Scavenger Grounds, however I think nearly every deck with the colours should have the ol' bazooka bog.
SynergyBuild - good call on Sylvan Scrying the only reason I'd says Expedition Map over it is that in the 3 colour deck if I'm not getting a green, I can go fetch a dual land with green. If I had Sylvan Scrying in it's place, I'd be waiting for the top deck. Is that poor thinking with just a 3 colour, or does that make sense?
1 week ago
I really appreciate you going over this and bringing your Ghave expertise to the table.
btw, I think Avatar of Growth is the only etb trigger like that, at least that I've seen
I'm definitely hearing you with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and the ETB/recursion ability. He's a fantastic option for upping the effectiveness of the deck especially considering cmc's and tutors. For example, I could sack Protean Hulk to bring in Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, then after Protean Hulk is brought back, sack him again for Avatar of Growth. Ob Nixilis and Avatar they are both 6cmc, so fit in Protean's limitations! I could do the same with Fierce Empath though he just puts them into my hand. With Mikaeus on the battlefield and Eldritch Evolution or Birthing Pod in place, I could sac either Ob Nixilis or Avatar to bring the other in. Btw...Mikaus with Fertilid and enough mana for activate his search engine trigger? ohhhh man, match made in heaven!
Ultimately, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed becomes another node in the network the gives multiple new routes to the goal - that's what I need in this deck, so thanks for that!
I've seen the Karmic Guide + Reveillark mentioned often and see them ringing alarm bells for people when they are played. Someone's obviously getting up to something at that point! I'm going to play test them, but may keep them on the "maybe" for the sake of trying alternate routes out first. You are so very right though, the recursion package is going to be a big key to this deck hitting a rhythm. I know I'll end up trying them in here, but I'm going to dig for alternatives for now. ... even without those two in here though, Saffi Eriksdotter seems like a great add. I put together a rough version of the deck, set to private, just to play test it. I was missing having early drops that offer value and support to the machine while helping it move forward. Saffri could potentially be one of those.
As for other recursion options: what do you think of Meren of Clan Nel Toth + Skullwinder (who also deters attacks) and/or Eternal Witness? I'm thinking this could be a good alternative for bring back Pir's Whim or another way to get Field of Ruin back. Meren would also get that Avatar of Growth ETB again in a turn - getting up to 6 experience counters with Ghave would be no problem at all.
Also - one that has worked really well in play testing, because of the lands matters aspect, is Emeria Shepherd. She's amazing recursion actually. With all the great land spells I have that can drop larger amounts of land on the battlefield, I can bring in multiple plains at once to return creatures Avatar of Growth, enchantments (Pattern of Rebirth or Wound Reflection), or artifacts Ashnod's Altar back to the battlefield together for a final boom.
Ghave initially made sense with the built in sac engine for Pattern of Rebirth, for fueling fertilid, utilizing the counters Ob Nixilis got, as well as his colours. I also knew that he had such great value engines because the second EDH deck I ever built was Ghave (with many of the combos) and I figured, once it was time to start filling the deck out, I know I have helpful options available. It's started to make more and more sense though as things have progressed.
For example: If I get into the landfall token creation I'm producing good fuel for the sac engines like Ashnod's Altar, food for Skullclamp and triggers for Bloodspore Thrinax or Ivy Lane Denizen type engines and Mentor of the Meek.
Great point on the infinite sacs for infinite flying demon, I didn't even make that obvious connection with Ghave's infinites and his trigger... And let's not forget, he's got trample! So, unless they are blocking with a flying, first strike deathtoucher, that's game for that opponent. I foresee the deck being able to combo off killing all but one opponent in some instances, so having the secondary "death-con" built into the primary is pretty nice.
What I love about going the land-matters route is bringing in Ob Nixilis, the Fallen and taking the "pain" theme further with his landfall trigger. I could bring in mass lands from the big "search engine" ramp, token triggers to fuel ghave/altar/clamp/thrinax/mentor, then deal direct damage and grow a monster (unfortunately non-flying/non-trample). I do see the value in keeping some control in mind as well and am open to ideas for priorities there. Finding the balance will be the journey, for sure.
Thanks so much for taking the time Abzkaban! I'm glad you can appreciate the jankier version of Ghave. He screams for the efficient infinite combos, it's written all over him, and I'll never tire of playing that style of him...
Yet! his abilities and colours are pretty fun enablers and I have a few other ideas for him (though this is the jankiest of them so far). I'm excited to see this keep evolving, and with something that feels so unique in some ways, it's been pretty fun having folks like you step up with new insights that seem to take it to such a greater level. Another example is Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor's idea of Biorhythm... Something I don't think I've seen in a Ghave deck, yet Ghave can use it so well, and it brings everyone within easy reach of a Field of Ruin + Ob Nixilis, Unshackled search to death!
So again, thanks for being part of it :)
2 weeks ago
I'm really loving the deck idea! Maybe add Yeva, Nature's Herald for a nasty surprise when you tempt them while Ob isn't out, then flash him in when they pay costs to do a search (:
-Flickerwisp Conjurer's Closet Eerie Interlude and Restoration Angel can work with creatures like Avatar of Growth to get additional procs of their ETB. There are other flicker options as well if you want to go this route.
For your Maybeboard, looks like you have a few very separate ideas going on. I personally like the black control you've got going, so you could build more on that. Bitterblossom and Mind Slash can be a harsh combo to have out for your opponent(s), especially if you just got rid of their hands with Mindslicer.
Hope this helps!
3 weeks ago
Creatures: Rakdos, Lord of Riots makes you jump through hoops to cast, then only really benefits creatures which you are light on. Although I love the flavor, it may be an upgrade target. Something like Vial Smasher the Fierce or Sire Of Insanity could keep the flavor but give better long term results.
Speaking of your creatures, over 90% cost 4+. You will need defense if unable to stay below suspicion. Which brings me to removal... Most of it is targeted or sorcery. In the colors where you will make each opponent angry, you NEED the flexibility to remove when needed. Or the very least, remove everything (board wipe) to buy time, ie: Damnation, Blasphemous Act... cards like that will keep the board clear till you can play the big X spells FTW. Midnight Recovery only targets your grave, which will most likely not have a target. Possibly Animate Dead or Beacon of Unrest would be a better fit. Sadistic Sacrament will, at best, anger 1 opponent. Most likely the 1 who is the most ahead. Why turn that chair? Secondly, Stitch Together also only works for your grave, which will most likely be creature light given ~17% of your build are creatures in the grave. Cut or Killing Wave may be options? Artifacts are heavily reliant on a creature. There are several card slots that could be utilized to better punish opponents here. Enchantments: Wound Reflection and Stolen Strategy are amazing! The other 2 feel narrow only because they rely on you having creatures. A single board wipe, removal spell, etc will render these cards worthless. Lastly, lands... this is a controversial topic I typically do not comment on via TO. I'll remain brief, but currently with a avg CMC of 3.63 and most of your spells costing 4+ or are X spells 37 lands feels low. 39 may be better. Although fetches don't add to much in EDH, they do offer choice and remove dead land draws later. More dual options could be helpful too. Lastly Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Cabal Coffers, Command Tower, Tainted Peak & Badlands are just to name a few. In closing, I love what this build is trying to do. Playing the player is very next level, even though it creates fast enemies. Preparing for the backlash that comes with being 'that player' will increase both win and fun. Believe me. You may not win every game, but you'll have a great time seeing everyone squirm. Keep up the dirty work. There is always the most filthy of them all... Suicide Rakdos. :)
4 weeks ago
Damage Doubling all day long Dictate of the Twin Gods and Wound Reflection double damage for the quick win. Second infect, Grafted Exoskeleton,Glistening Oil, and Phyresis put infect on your cmdr or Psychosis Crawler for the quick competitive win and maybe add one more tutor
4 weeks ago
Very cool. I have a remarkably similar list. Good to see great minds think alike. One thing I did add that I didn't see here was Wound Reflection and Sanguine Bond to get a little extra damage out of those Blood Artist and Zulaport Cutthroat triggers
1 month ago
@griffstick: While I was working on my Kruphix deck, I added 4 & cut 1:
Faith of the Devoted (Couldn't find a way to bypass Maralen's Downside, or find a way to gain life while bypassing Havoc Festival. Any suggestions for either?)
Any thoughts? Didn't think my meter would decrease in this case... But why nobody cares I dunno...
1 month ago
dizzierabit I've considered Nirkana Revenant but she's 2 more mana than Crypt Ghast. The point of the deck is more focused around discard effects, to keep your opponents off of cards they want, and let the enchantments do their work. With Wound Reflection and playing Quest for the Nihil Stone mid-late game, we're dealing 10 damage to that player during their turn.
As for Burnished Hart, it's been tried before I posted the deck, but 5 mana to recur and sac it for a basic really takes a lot out of the turns play. I've been contemplating keeping Phyrexian Reclamation in the deck, but since we are running some lords for blocks, it's there to allow Gravecrawler to recur. I do agree that Charcoal Diamond has a bad drawback, but it's a great early game ramp and mid-late game discard option.
The option of Myriad Landscape is a viable option and I may cut a Swamp to put that in. I may also add Wasteland. The other destroy lands are great, but I like to keep some mana untapped for instants.
Another card I've been toying with trying is Dash Hopes. I know in EDH 5 life isn't that big of a deal, but when you have your opponents low on cards, I think it might be a great option. The biggest drawback of the deck is enchantment removal, and frankly black just lacks this.