How to play voltron in edh
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Jan. 31, 2014, 10:05 p.m. by Krayhaft
So, my playgroup consists of 4+ people, with large games of up to 8 people not uncommon. My main deck is a Sigarda voltron edh deck (you can see it here). My problem is that, something I have noticed in large group edh games is that I get focused down very quickly when piloting Sigarda. People are able to tell how many hits it will take for me to kill someone, and it gets very hard to be able to kill people when they can see my capability just by board presence alone. Compared to when I play as a combo-control edh deck, I am able to win just by holding the right cards in hand and quietly building up my mana base and not appearing to be threatening.
So my question is, if you play voltron edh strategies, and if you play them in large, free for all games, what strategies do you use to win? Other than 'hit them until they're dead', because someone can just come in and save them.
Get the voltron out fast. Choose targets wisely. Take out the ones that are obvious ringleaders / colluders / secret 2HG members first. Have a defensive presence and lots of layers of protection and graveyard recovery. Keep some enchants handy so that it looks like it will take one turn more than what it will actually take to kill someone - or use instants like Savage Beating for the same effect.
You still probably won't win - but you might take down quite a few along the way. It is harder to win with strategies that have a clear board presence and advantage.
January 31, 2014 10:17 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #4
I actually had a Stroke of Genius (at least I thought so) about Voltron commander.
Like you, I play in large groups of 8+ which usually is a pain, not only do I play in large groups but everyone plays 4-6 boardwipes in their decks, forsaking targeted removal for wraths. This typically makes it hard for a Voltron strategy to get off the ground because it can make your commander too expensive to cast VERY quickly.
My solution was based on this "How do you beat a Voltron deck? Kill it's commander enough times to make it un-castable." To combat that I thought outside the box and decided to use Derevi, Empyrial Tactician . Yes, Derevi lacks natural Hexproof but what she DOES have is the ability to ignore commander tax. "Oh, you Wrath of God ? Ok, at your end step I flash in Derevi for 4." I took this hard to kill mentality and applied it to almost every one of my creatures in the deck. Thrun, the Last Troll , Sigarda, Host of Herons , Fleecemane Lion , etc.
The untap ability is pretty clutch too since you can tap a Gilded Lotus to cast Derevi, then untap it to get more mana.
I Vant, my burd... Playtest
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 17 | 29 COMMENTS | 2526 VIEWSJanuary 31, 2014 10:35 p.m.
Well, I was hopefully looking for cards relevant to my general's colors (G/W). The strategy I've adopted so far is to focus down any blue players who aren't really doing much, because I know they have countermagic and mass bounce spells. I've also started looking at cards that protect my equipments (Hanna's Custody , Indomitable Archangel ), but I"m wondering at what point do I have enough protection effects where they start to dilute the theme of my deck? It's especially hard since I can't run blue myself.
January 31, 2014 10:37 p.m.
miracleHat says... #6
I remember when Uril, the Miststalker was used more than sigarda. The point being is that voltron strategies piss people off (looking at you Rafiq of the Many ). One thing that kills voltron strategies are Wrath of God affects and in an eight player game, those should be cast quite often. For when playing voltron, i usually lie low and killing stuff that attacks me, but not doing anything. When there are only like 3 other players, i play my creature (normally uril). Next turn, i play a lot of enchantments and extra combat step cards and win the game.
January 31, 2014 10:38 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #7
Avacyn, Angel of Hope is great.
I prefer mana rock acceleration like Gilded Lotus , Thran Dynamo , and Basalt Monolith over Wood Elves , Cultivate , and Kor Cartographer but that's just me.
Not knowing what types of things your meta plays makes it hard to tune a protection package for you though.
January 31, 2014 10:49 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #8
Also, Privileged Position and Asceticism are great ways to protect from targeted removal.
Asceticism has the bonus of protecting you from Supreme Verdict .
January 31, 2014 10:52 p.m.
It completely baffles and amazes me the way that a typical EDH pod can just swallow down the same guy pulling the same combo over and over and get so unhappy with a person that makes threats and causes interaction to happen on the board.
I can kind of empathize in that I can remember times before I got all the protection cards I could fit into the deck without diluting it as you say (a thing that depends on the deck and the balance of your playgroup). I was sitting there after getting systematically reamed by targetted removal and board wipes, not being able to keep anything on the board, hoping that I didn't get picked as the person to be destroyed first. But then again, I remember another similar situation where I was hoping to get taken out so I could find a different table and start a new game ... because if you get brought down to that point it might as well be over ...
Don't people get tired of the same combos played by the same people winning? I do think there is something about that untouchable combo that requires no stirring of the pot so to speak that people just can take a lot easier. I just don't find that fun. I want to get in the game and mess around with peoples' stuff and give them something to answer.
January 31, 2014 10:54 p.m.
My deck is starting to see more of those types of protection cards, but even those aren't enough. What if I have a bunch of equipments in hand, but no protection cards, or vice versa? Adding protection mitigates the problem, but the issue is I'm adding cards to protect other cards, which isn't the best solution. And on the topic of mana rocks, I play enough artifacts as is, I don't want to give my opponents more things to blow up by adding rocks. I've gotten along by ramping dorks, but that may change in the future.
In response to r3v13w, I actually disagree with your stance on infinite combos. They're perfectly acceptable to me, and losing to an infinite combo doesn't make me unhappy. It's just something that I didn't prepare for, not something that I should get rid of by complaining about it to the player.
Actually, getting beat down with large creatures repeatedly makes me feel worse, because it's such a boring strategy to me, and one you can see from miles away. I switched to a voltron commander because I used to be an infinite combo player myself, with a Nin combo deck. People complained so I took it apart for a more 'friendly' deck.
To me, a combo like Splinter Twin + Deceiver Exarch (an infinite combo) is no different from Avenger of Zendikar + Craterhoof Behemoth (a very large but finite combo). They both end the game if you play them at the right time and you can ensure your opponents can't respond. I don't mind getting cleverly beat down, but just getting swarmed with creatures isn't something I can really accept. This is probably why I'm not so great at being a voltron player, its just such a vulnerable strategy to me.
I know I"m going off tangent, but I see the issue of 'infinite combos' come up a lot in edh discussions and I thought I'd talk about it for a bit.
January 31, 2014 11:09 p.m.
miracleHat says... #11
Talking about finite but very large combos, did anybody wish that the G/W god said whenever a creature "enters the battlefield under your control" instead of "whenever you cast a creature"? Because if it was what i thought it was, Avenger of Zendikar with that thing would be ridicolous and add Doubling Season . but it isn't: sorry for the off track bit. With voltron, you have to have a back up strategy if the voltron doesn't work. combo is usually the best and most reliant. Infinite mana in g/w shouldn't be too difficult, and just have some x spell (Genesis Wave ), which also has other uses throughout the game.
January 31, 2014 11:19 p.m.
You could always play some sort of pillowfort strategy like Windborn Muse , Sphere of Safety , Ghostly Prison , Chronomantic Escape and Blazing Archon . Green and White are also wonderful for Fog effects like Holy Day , Angel's Grace , Defend the Hearth etc.
January 31, 2014 11:25 p.m.
notamardybum says... #13
my friend plays a sigarda voltron edh deck. Its boring as hell to play against and unless he gets mana screwed i usually lose.
again, its boring as hell to play against.
January 31, 2014 11:34 p.m.
@DaShPrime that's the sort of problem I was describing. I can choose to put in cards that will help protect me if I get ganged up on, but the cards that you suggested don't fit in a voltron strategy. I build my Sigarda deck with 100% devotion to equipments, and since then it's been slowly becoming more and more diluted in focus.
I guess I just want to know if it's worth sacrificing the speed and efficiency I've tried to build in my Sigarda deck, and in return gain some versatility which will let me survive in group games.
@Ohthenoises, I've actually been thinking about switching to Derevi voltron. Have you had much success with that build? And have you tried it in 1v1's? In 1v1 my Sigarda deck as is does relatively well but doesn't have the same success in pods. Do you think it's possible to build a edh deck that can do very well in both 1v1 and free for alls?
February 1, 2014 1:45 a.m.
@Krayhaft: There's only one way to find out if the compromise is worth it! There's a fine balance between keeping your threat value low and making your deck powerful. If you really have a problem with sweepers, you could consider making Gaddock Teeg your general and including tutors to get Sigarda, Host of Herons out of your deck, or vice versa. Gaddock Teeg is basically flipping the bird to control strategies in the most painful way possible. It does limit the kind of equipments you can play, but all the Swords are CMC3, as well as many other decent equipments. He does increase your threat value incredibly though, so get ready to play 1v7 or get beaten up in the carpark hahaha.
February 1, 2014 1:54 a.m.
@Krayhaft You completely misunderstood me! I guess I wasn't clear. My question "Don't people get tired of the same combos winning over and over?" was more about my puzzlement at people's reaction to voltron and less about a need to complain to the player. It was a question / speculation and not meant to complain. I just find it interesting that people really do seem to find a loss to combo much easier to take than a loss to voltron. That's all I meant by it. In particular, my comment did not refer to any of:
- complaining to anyone. (I was just asking questions)
- *infinite* combos in particular
- getting rid of anyone except myself out of a situation where I thought that I had become a target and wasn't prepared for it the way I am now
My word choice was poor and far from concise. I am guessing that in the absence of clarity some other assumption about me from the past or something got applied to the interpretation about what I wrote.
I did say something about choosing targets strategically when playing voltron but I didn't say anything about going after "infinite combo guy" - although that might be worth considering if they reliably win in a certain unstoppable and well known way - I said something about going after the likely people who are feeding into the "gang-up-on" effect. If certain people are known to always team up then picking one of them can cut back on how much you get ganged up on. Similarly if you know that one of the players has a way with words that gets people to do whatever they want - or at least has plenty of influence to direct people against you - that was another option (in the case where you find that the social dynamics are your biggest issue and you are getting teamed up against - not necessarily in every case).
I hope this attempt at communication was more effective but all I can use are the words that I choose ... the rest of interpretation is not something that I have control over.
February 1, 2014 5:53 a.m.
I also probably should clarify my comment about "something like Savage Beating ". That was a strategy suggestion like my other suggestions, not a card suggestion. I did not forget that Sigarda, Host of Herons is GW. I was just suggesting:
- enchantments instead of artifacts (but now that I mention it, if you use artifacts and you want to stick with those, then adding in more ramp could help - or you could wait on playing the artifacts to get an element of surprise - but without ramp that slows you down too much)
- protective cards (Ohthenoises mentioned several but there are more)
- things that recover your stuff - since no specific examples have been mentioned I can mention some here: Sun Titan , Reveillark , Karmic Guide , Eternal Witness - these are pretty common though, I bet you did know about all of them
- surprise pumping cards like Savage Beating that make you less turns away from taking a person out in a less obvious way - but for your color. I know green has lots of things like Overrun and Giant Growth . Green has tons of stuff like this that give trample and pump things up as a combat trick.
Sorry for the double post - its out of my system now. Carry on!
February 1, 2014 6:27 a.m.
@r3v13w, my rant about infinite combos being looked down upon wasn't directed at you really. I just see a lot of haters on infinite combos in general, and saw you mentioning them, and went off on a tangent. Sorry for singling you out!
My main problem with voltron strategies is that your threats will mainly be on the board, meaning people can more easily see how many turns it will take for you to kill someone. I can mitigate this by holding equipments and threats in hand, so that isn't so bad.
The second problem is, that people who know my will single me out and try to eliminate me first. This problem actually came up during a group game where I lent my Sigarda deck to a friend and I found myself being among the group of people that singled Sigarda out. Ganging up on her this way made me realize how hard it is to secure a kill when all the attention is on you. I guess this is just the nature of group games, and its more a problem that politics can solve, rather than adding cards to the deck.
@r3v13w (and everyone else who put suggestions down), thank you very much for the card suggestions, it's given me a bit to think about
February 1, 2014 10:21 a.m.
@Krayhaft: There are multiple ways of building a Voltron EDH deck, Sigarda, Host of Herons is just one of them. If you find that having an open, on-the-battlefield kind of Voltron draws a lot of hate, use another kind of Voltron that has some sort of surprise element. Bruna, Light of Alabaster is a good one, Skullbriar, the Walking Grave or Thromok the Insatiable using counters is another good one. Nothing beats the awesome feeling of devouring 10 saprolings with Warstorm Surge out and smacking someone for 100. Sure, flavourfully artifact Voltron might be the most realistic, but you should remain open to other types of Voltron that allow you to get around the limitations of your playgroup's meta. Even something like Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief can count as a decent Voltron general if you stretch the definition a bit.
February 1, 2014 11:18 a.m.
I do think that politics does a better job of solving it than adding cards. That's the way it should be. If multi-player games typically ran in a way that an entire table of hate didn't stop a particular person from winning, they wouldn't be that fun.
That being said, adding defensive cards can keep you in it much longer. Also, it is far easier to stop one individual from winning overall than it is to stop them from taking out someone along the way. It is and should be hard to win a large multi-player game using a voltron strategy - but it can still be fun. I think that combos are more of a winning strategy in multi-player games but as for me, I like the multi-player interaction and while combo can more reliably and easily win, I don't find it so interesting to just sit back and sneak a win in while everyone else is distracted by making moves and threats and answering them. That's just me - if you like combo better than I would just play it. As you can see now, probably, from running voltron, people like to complain and are most happy when they are easily beating you. That doesn't mean you have to just give in to what they want all the time. Still - kudos to you for trying out a different strategy!
DaShPrime says... #2
Playing with Bruna, Light of Alabaster usually guarantees at least one kill for me, because no one knows what auras you have in your hand. Once that happens, it's down to how much tuck/spot removal they have vs. how much mana I have and Hall of the Bandit Lord .
It depends on what kind of removal your playgroup runs, if it runs mass removal or counters, Thrun, the Last Troll might be a better general, or you could run a lot of regenerate effects like Asceticism since all you need to do is keep your general alive. If they run a lot of spot removal, then Hexproof like Geist of Saint Traft or Uril, the Miststalker might be better. I like Geist as it comes down very early and can often be paired with Silverblade Paladin for quick kills.
January 31, 2014 10:16 p.m.