EDH Dual and Fetch Land Questions
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 8, 2016, 11:51 a.m. by JaceTheSwagSculptor
I have two things I'd like to discuss in this thread:
I'm looking for an alternative to Savannah in my EDH deck for obvious monetary reasons, but didn't quite know what the next best option is for G/W to choose in commander. I'm already playing Canopy Vista, Temple Garden,Sunpetal Grove, and Windswept Heath, but I would like one more solid mana fixing choice. Is there another option or is better to just run another basic at this point?
Is it worth running fetch lands that don't share your exact color identity (eg. running Arid Mesa in a U/W deck) in your commander deck if you have no way to recur lands?
Thanks!
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #3
Whoops! Just realized I forgot to say I'm already running Sunpetal Grove. Sorry.
November 8, 2016 noon
The next best option for is a Plains, a green marker, and a playgroup that doesn't mind proxies. Would Riftstone Portal will help you?
November 8, 2016 12:09 p.m.
Are you running Command Tower and Wooded Bastion? How about Reflecting Pool or Fortified Village?
And as for your second question, only if you have ways to abuse them. If you have ways to stack the top of your deck, ways to copy activated abilities, or need a specific land on the field early it is good to run them.
November 8, 2016 12:18 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #6
Brushland is the next one down then.
Alternatively, Amazon sells some beautiful custom arts for cards for about 6 dollars.
November 8, 2016 12:23 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #7
@Raging_Squiggle I never though about buying a fake Savannah lol. I guess I could do that so long as it isn't trash quality and doesn't get damaged anymore than a normal card from shuffling. Do you know if any of the fake ones that are solid quality?
@Ruffigan Ya, my train of thought led me to Wooded Bastion as well. I never thought of Reflecting Pool though. However both of them do bring some amount of inconsistency. How have you felt using either in a two color deck?
@legendofa The general I'm using is Sigarda, Host of Herons and it focuses on stacking enchantments. I thought of Riftstone Portal as well, but I honestly need all the of the Strip Mine effects in my deck to keep her safe from Arcane Lighthouse.
November 8, 2016 12:46 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #8
@Ruffigan Pretty much the only library manipulation effect I have is Sylvan Library. When you put it into context like that I don't know if it's worth it, especially since my land count is fairly low (36 to be exact).
November 8, 2016 12:54 p.m.
I run both in my Bant enchantress deck. The limitations of Wooded Bastion only comes about if you have no source of or (which would be rare in a two color deck) or if your group runs a lot of land destruction, in which case it would be likely to be destroyed because it can fix your mana. Reflecting Pool has an additional weakness, in that if it is your first land or you only control lands that produce colorless/generic mana it cannot be used. It will also not help if you're getting screwed out of one color. That said, it is basically a Command Tower if your deck is operating normally.
And if Sylvan Library is your only deck manipulation I would stick to the on color fetches unless you really need a specific land type in the first two turns.
November 8, 2016 1:05 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #10
Are the two on Amazon that I mentioned. The top one is the one I am planning on getting. Plus the top one is foiled.
November 8, 2016 1:18 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #11
@Ruffigan The only colored utility land I would want to get is Mistveil Plains but I probably wouldn't need that until late game.
The need for more color fixing comes with how the deck is constructed, a lot of the cards are CMC 3 or less as a concession to Gaddock Teeg being a big part of the list. Thus, there is a lot of pressure on the deck to get an enchantresses on the field early and as you probably know a good majority of the enchantresses cost dual of one color barring Argothian Enchantress. As a result, minor mana fixing issues can mean the difference between a good opening and a mediocre one.
November 8, 2016 1:19 p.m.
If that's the case I would not run Reflecting Pool but would add Wooded Bastion; too many variables for Reflecting Pool to hold you back early game.
November 8, 2016 1:26 p.m.
@ JaceTheSwagSculptor: Not that I'm endorsing the use of proxying in any situation but casual environments, but aside from Amazon you can generally find decent proxying sellers on places like Etsy and stuff. If you do want to go down the proxy route and like your proxies to look as legit as possible, I would recommend this site:Best MTG Proxy
I've bought all of the duals from him before for some of my EDH decks along with a few other reserved list cards (and one or two expensive cards I already own but want in multiple decks) and they're all generally pretty top notch quality. If you sleeve the cards up you really can't tell the difference except in some of the mana symbols on occasion.
November 8, 2016 1:27 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #14
@Raging_Squiggle I'm having trouble finding them. I'm not sure if you can post links on Tapped out, but if you could I'd appreciate it.
November 8, 2016 1:28 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #16
@Sloanan I don't generally like using proxies either and I wouldn't have to if a decent Savannah wasn't almost $70. Nonetheless, I really appreciate the proxy information. I will probably only end up using the proxy if the dual land that I end up choosing as an alternative yields poor results.
November 8, 2016 1:37 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #17
@Raging_Squiggle Haha that zebra one is fantastic!
November 8, 2016 1:39 p.m.
Matt_The_OGRE says... #18
Don't forget about Grasslands. It may be a slow fetch, but it is still an on color fetch land.
November 8, 2016 1:40 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #19
@Ruffigan There is also potential for Wooded Bastion to screw me but I doubt I'd keep a hand with two other non-color producing sources lol.
November 8, 2016 1:41 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #20
@Matt_The_OGRE Unfortunately, the goal of the deck is to have a good start and including more lands that come into play tapped is counterintuitive to that philosophy. Also, I think I would just rather have Krosan Verge or Ash Barrens.
November 8, 2016 1:46 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #21
@Matt_The_OGRE Maybe that post came off as slightly incesitive. My apologies if you found my comments harsh.
November 8, 2016 1:51 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #22
I also completely missed that Raging_Squiggle suggested Brushland earlier. I mean price-wise Wooded Bastion is cheaper, but how does Brushland compare? Better? Worse? Doesn't matter?
November 8, 2016 2 p.m.
I actually also think you need Riftstone Portal, and if you have to play tapped lands, I think that Blossoming Sands and Graypelt Refuge are better than other tapped mana-fixing lands, unless you're focused on thinning also, then basics are the way to go. There is always a chance for Blighted Woodland.
November 8, 2016 2:06 p.m.
It doesn't really matter. It would be better to have Brushland on turn 1 but until your mana is stabilized you will be taking 1 damage each turn. Wooded Bastion has the benefit of generating any combination of & , which is good if you're short on one color. Maybe add both? I'm personally wary of having too many non-basics because of Ruination and From the Ashes type effects.
November 8, 2016 2:10 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #25
@Dorotheus As I alluded to, this is not a "big green" style deck. My curve peaks at 5. It does not really matter to me how many lands I have on the board as long as Sigarda, Host of Herons can be cast. This being said, the early game is really important to me so I can't afford a large amount of lands coming in tapped.
@Ruffigan Unfortunately, I am wary of playing too many non-basics. By including cards likeUtopia Sprawl in my list, I cannot afford a huge amount of non-basics that don't have a forest/plains sub-type. That's why I'm so set on finding the "ideal" alternative to Savannah.
November 8, 2016 2:20 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #26
I think that you absolutely should run off-color fetches. They are hands down the best color fixing available. You have two non-basics that have basic land types and if both of those are out you are unlikely to be in need of fixing. Incidentally the one you mentioned costs almost as much as a Savannah I would stick to Wooded Foothills since in general green is the most important color in decks that run it since it is the color used for land ramp. If you are dead set on a white fetch Flooded Strand is also reasonable.
November 8, 2016 2:23 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #27
@Gidgetimer Whoa! None of the cards I'm considering running are even close to Savannah in price. Arid Mesa was just used as an example. I would only consider running Flooded Strand and Wooded Foothills.
There are two sides to the argument you made for fetch lands - the side that it gives me better fixing (what you said) and what Ruffigan said earlier (in addition to my lower land count). However I really can't discern which is correct.
November 8, 2016 2:36 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #28
Idk if it would be easier for everyone who is actively commenting, but would seeing the deck list help in these decision trees?
November 8, 2016 2:39 p.m.
dnthymamai says... #29
Listen to me my friend. It's quite easy:
Go to the official card search http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Advanced.aspx . Second line says "Rules Text". To the right, before you write something you can choose between OR, AND, and NOT. choose AND. then type to the empty box: [G] [W] (not with [ ] exactly but [ ] with SHIFT Pressed down, it's the other symbol). Press "ADD" to the right. Then, change AND to NOT, and type [R] [U] [B] (with Shift+[ ]) to the box and ADD that again. Then go to "Types" and choose LAND. ADD it. Press Search! (to the right of all those options)
--> All Green / White Lands will be displayedQ! :D A nice one is Temple of Plenty!!
(Also if you have any fetchlands, yes, you can put them despite their "color". Keep in mind that it thins your deck a little bit, because you are actually spending 2 lands to have 1 land. But deck thinning is good at late game!)
November 8, 2016 2:55 p.m.
On the topic of off-coloured fetches, the answer is an absolute yes for as many as you can run / have access to. While some people are aversed to running them (as they feel against the spirit of the game or whatever), the fixing that they provide is amazing. having effectively 7 additional Savannahs/Temple Gardens/Canopy Vistas is disgustingly powerful.
On the topic of mana fixing for white/green, it sounds like you already have the best (within your price range). I personally run Wooded Bastion and on the whole it has been good for fixing.
Do you have a decklist though? you might be able to sidestep some of your landbase fixing issues by tweaking your ramp suite, allowing you to run a higher basic count without ill effects.
November 8, 2016 6:22 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #31
I'm not sure I saw a convincing counter argument for not running Fetches in anything Ruffigan said. He said that unless you are abusing them with deck manipulation they are not worth it. Since they are the best fixing available and you said that your deck is very reliant on early fixing that is incorrect.
November 8, 2016 6:33 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #32
@Gidgetimer Looks like you hit the head on the nail. I didn't pay enough attention to semantics. Ruffigan said its not worth to have them, possibly meaning that its not worth the money to buy them(?) unless your deck relies on deck manipulation. I do agree with what you have said, though. So from my understanding: if I have the money, then I should invest in them. Is that correct?
@enpc I would like to post the deck, but didn't the forum rules for this particular one that I chose to post in say "NO DECKLISTS in this forum. This forum is for the discussion of the Commander format" in its rules? Well I guess its time to break the rules and see what happens, here's a link: Enchantress Sigarda.
November 8, 2016 8:07 p.m.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "No Decklists" is to stop people from blatantly abusing the forums to plug their decks and to help differentiate between deck help and general questions.
Your initial question was broad but now it has become more specific and a deck list aids in the conversation. I can't see it being a problem.
November 8, 2016 9:05 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #34
@enpc Awesome! Thanks for explaining. Well if you feel the need to look over the list and give suggestions, feel free to. I just realized the link that I made in the last post did not work. I'll try it again. Enchantress Sigarda.
If that doesn't work, then I'll just list the URL:http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-11-16-enchantress-sigarda/
November 8, 2016 9:10 p.m.
Krosan Verge? I'd recommend grabbing one soon if you can, it's down cause of the reprint.
Do you have the mainland too?
November 8, 2016 10:23 p.m. Edited.
Krosan Verge? I'd recommend grabbing one soon if you can, it's down cause of the reprint.
November 8, 2016 10:23 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #37
@Atony1400 Yes, Krosan Verge is already in the deck.
November 8, 2016 10:50 p.m.
Always the American card market :/ I see the difference in prices everyday when checking tappedout.net. In Europe savannah in revised is about 40 which is quite affordable. I would also consider more ramp to get your mana fixing. This is the way I have gone with my sigarda deck
November 9, 2016 12:59 a.m.
I personally love the Odyssey filters. I have a Rakdos, Lord of Riots deck which really wants to have Eye of Ugin, Volrath's Stronghold and so on. Shadowblood Ridge works wonders here!
Maybe Sungrass Prairie is worth a try for you. I know most people do not like them, but testing never hurt anyone. Plus that land is cheaper than most Savannah proxies =p
November 9, 2016 10:56 a.m.
I personally love the Odyssey filters. I have a Rakdos, Lord of Riots deck which really wants to have Eye of Ugin, Volrath's Stronghold and so on. Shadowblood Ridge works wonders here!
Maybe Sungrass Prairie is worth a try for you. I know most people do not like them, but testing never hurt anyone. Plus that land is cheaper than most Savannah proxies =p
November 9, 2016 10:57 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #41
The cheapest Savannah proxy you can do is a piece of notebook paper with "Savannah" written on it. ;)
November 9, 2016 12:13 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #42
@Sersorias I think that land is significantly better in Rakdos, Lord of Riots than in my particular deck. Rakdos' casting cost is more intensive than Sigarda's but not by much, so it makes sense to run filters like Shadowblood Ridge in order to support utility lands. I lean more towards Wooded Bastion if I were to go towards fixing similar to what you are suggesting mainly because I have less split costs and more double of one color costs.
November 9, 2016 12:20 p.m.
@JaceTheSwagSculptor: I totally agree with you! Rakdos demands quite a resilient land base, much more than most two-color decks I played with yet. It might still be worth a try if you lean heavily towards utility lands like Strip Mine et al. as in this case Wooded Bastion is not much of a help.
Your point regarding double of one color costs is indeed valid. Running both is not an option for you either?
November 9, 2016 12:58 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #44
@Sersorias I believe I only run 8 colorless lands at the moment and it will go to 9 once I manage to get my hands on a Cavern of Souls. I don't want to run both dual lands just because I want to maintain the consistency of cards like Utopia Sprawl in the deck.
On another note, Rakdos, Lord of Riots seems really sweet with the addition of the new Eldrazi. It feels like the deck gets way more consistent with the ability to run multiple titans.
November 9, 2016 1:32 p.m.
@Gidgetimer: I did mention that if he needed a specific color in the first few turns it would be worth it, but I really don't think they're worth the investment unless there are multiple synergies that revolve around them. Like being able to reset Scroll Rack/Sensei's Divining Top/Oracle of Mul Daya, play them again with Crucible of Worlds, copy them with Rings of Brighthearth, or run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to help if you've exhausted your basics. They're definitely a necessity as you move into the upper echelon of play but due to the price and marginal benefit it is something I would save investing in until the deck is otherwise finished, especially since the deck only needs two colors.
November 9, 2016 3:37 p.m. Edited.
@JaceTheSwagSculptor: Understandable. That's the reason why I am running almost solely basics besides the fetchable duals in my Riku deck for instance. Some of the best green ramp spells rely on a fair amount of basics after all!
Indeed! The number of potentially game-ending threats nearly doubled over the last few months, at least for me. He also benefits from the format my playgroup prefers which is 2HG-Commander.
November 9, 2016 4:33 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #47
Ruffigan: If we were talking specifically about Mesa I would agree with you. However with Onslaught fetches being a comparable price to Filters I see no reason that Wooded Bastion should be considered over Wooded Foothills unless that extra $3 is going to break the bank.
November 9, 2016 5:10 p.m.
JaceTheSwagSculptor says... #48
@Sersorias: RTR was around the time when I took a break from MTG and at the time Rakdos wasn't very popular, so its nice to come back and see lesser played generals get some love from the newer sets.
@Gidgetimer: I'll include whichever land (fetch or filter) the forum comes to the conclusion are more optimal, as this is the reason I started the thread in the first place.
Raging_Squiggle says... #2
You're already running the two next best options.
So, the third best option would probably be a check land, Sunpetal Grove.
November 8, 2016 11:53 a.m.