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Bloodline Keeper Discussion
19 hours ago
Here is my deck: Null profused turbo Vampires
At first glance it looks, not only uncompetitive, but unplayable... at second glance it looks just uncompetitive...
It is not the classical take on the vampire tribal, it makes heavy use of tutors, and uses some cards that have good synergy with my creatures, in only 1 copy (because i can tutor them).
The things i am the most clueless about are the following:
1# Would it be useful for me to add 4x Mutavault to help me cast Feast of Blood, and flip Bloodline Keeper Flip in controll matchups, or it would be too much colorless mana together wih my 4x Cavern of Souls?
2# Could Slaughter Games reasonably replace 1 of my sideboard playsets?
If you have any other advice i would like to hear it!
(Except the: This deck cannot work. because, no xyz card, non aggro vampire decks are useless, why run 1 copy of spells... etc. - so please give usefull critque, and think/read my introduction, before posting that it does not work - because suprisingly it does.)
1 day ago
This deck is in the control hub, so for my suggestions I'll assume you want to really control the board, not just some little sacrifice here and there.
In my Shattergang Brothers list, I found the two most important parts were ramp/fixing and removal.
Ideally, you want the Brothers out on turn 3 and start saccing stuff (probably your mana artfacts to kill your opponent's) on turn 4. Or have 7 mana ready turn 4 or 5, play the Brothers and sac something. If you give your opponents time to develop their board, you're gonna have a hard time.
You need lots of mana in the right colors, fast. In my list, I run 17 spells that ramp or fix my mana, 11 of them at 1 or 2CMC. Stuff like Birds of Paradise, Leaden Myr, Rakdos Signet and Sphere of the Suns (all permanents!) provide you with mana and are sac fodder.
When I first started building my deck list, I thought I could leave out removal, because the Brothers are removal. I was completely wrong. If anything, I need more than other decks.
To control what stays on the board, you must not give your opponents time. You have to destroy stuff as soon as possible, starting with their mana rocks.
The brother's abilities are quite mana intensive and you have limited sac fodder. If your opponents play lots of permanents of the same kind (or, god forbid, tokens), the stuff you want gone won't go. You need lots of removal to hit their key cards, you can take care of the rest with the Brothers. I run 12 spot removal spells (all permanent types) and 4 creature mass removal spells. This may seem excessive, but I rarely have to wait long to use them.
Even if you don't want to control the board as hard as I do, I suggest to take in a few removal spells and maybe use permanent ramp instead of sorceries to have additional sac fodder.
Other cards that do great work in my list and fit your token strategy are: Bloodline Keeper Flip, Butcher of Malakir, Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, Kothophed, Soul Hoarder, Overseer of the Damned, and Prossh, Skyraider of Kher.
1 day ago
Your mana base has far too many colorless mana sources. Graven Cairns should never be played as more than a 2-of, because you never want them to be your first land drop - and if you run 4 copies of them, you raise the chances of drawing only Graven Cairns in your opening hand considerably.
I see you're already aware of the bad synergy between Blood Moon and Mutavault, so I'll get straight to the point: keep the Moons and drop the Vaults. Blood Moon hoses a LOT more decks and will often win you the game by itself, whereas Mutavault is just a vanilla Vampire most of the time. Also, they have the same problem as Graven Cairns - they're colorless mana sources, and your spells are pretty cost intensive. The synergy with Coat of Arms isn't enough to make Mutavault worth running in this deck.
Even without fetchlands (which you should run because of Bloodghast), play at least one or two basic Mountains. You won't always have Blood Moon out, and you need almost as much red mana as you need black - something you won't have readily available with so many swamps, filter lands and Vaults.
Now, moving on to your nonland cards:
Vampire tribal decks are aggro by nature. You don't want to play a long game, and definitely not long enough to get seven lands in play. Drop Akroma's Memorial and Coat of Arms. This will also allow you to lower your land count to 22 or 23, giving you space for more removal and general utility spells.
Fervor competes with other 3-drops in your deck, and it won't be as useful as it seems. You want to be casting Vampire Nighthawk or Stromkirk Captain on T3, not a spell that helps you in the long run - remember, vampire decks do NOT want to go to "the long run".
Don't know what to swap for Bloodghast and Gatekeeper of Malakir? Easy. Play one less Bloodline Keeper Flip, one less Captivating Vampire, and get completely rid of Falkenrath Exterminator. Rakish Heir isn't too great either. I'd much rather have Vampire Lacerator instead (the more strong one-drops, the better!).
Surgical Extraction is terrible when you have no way of putting the opponent's threats into the graveyard. Seeing as you run no hand disruption, you'll have a hard time finding a good target for Extraction. My advice: move them to the sideboard and put Thoughtseize and/or Inquisition of Kozilek in their place. Black can always use some targeted discard. Always.
Olivia Voldaren is a better 4-drop than Bloodline Keeper Flip. If the game goes on for too long, when she hits the board by turn 7 or 8, your opponent will be scared shitless of playing any creatures. It's priceless.
And I guess that's all. Hope these tips help you!
1 day ago
Probably. I don't see how you're going to get to 5 Vampires in Modern outside of token generation from something like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad or Sorin, Solemn Visitor, and that's not in the colors you have chosen (although we could always go Mardu...). Without that, Bloodline Keeper Flip is just a 3/3 flier for , which is below curve. Its token making effect is also slow and prevents it from attacking, which are no-nos in both aggro and aggressive midrange.
2 days ago
I noticed you took a look at my deck and that I a lot of elements of my own deck are being utilized. For that.. I am honored. I am not saying that my build is necessarily for everyone, or even the best vampire deck out there.. However, I have been playing my deck and testing out the numbers for a very long time and there are subtleties that are missed when you first put a deck together as opposed to when you put in hours of time and research.For instance, as good as Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx seems on paper, I have done some testing with it.. In a deck like this it is just underwhelming. This is a very mana heavy deck. With Nykthos you can't effectively use the kicker of Gatekeeper of Malakir, cast Bloodghast, Vampire Nocturnus, or any other black heavy spell without already having a board state.
A great synergy you are missing is Stromkirk Captain paired with Vampire Nighthawk is pretty fantastic. A First Strike, Deathtouch, Lifelinking flyer can keep your opponents at bay, get in some beats, and gain you life. Nothing to scoff at.Bloodline Keeper Flip is alright. There was a thread that in a roundabout way tied in with this guy.Something that was discussed was that when Bloodline flips into Lord of Lineage Flip, he technically is 0CMC meaning he can be hit by Engineered Explosives, and Abrupt Decay alike. In my opinion, Olivia Voldaren is a huge threat. Bigger than Bloodline.I can, however, see an argument for Bloodline in more grindier matchups.. being able to produce tokens and pump is nice, but with 4x Vampire Nocturnus your mana curve is already high. If you are going to run Nocturnus, I would highly suggest refraining from also running Bloodline.Another point about Nocturnus you need to consider is that lands do not count as black, so as it stands 26 cards (including Aether Vial and Lightning Bolt) will not make Nocturnus's buff active.This can be controlled to a point if you are attached to the idea of Nocturnus with the addition of Viscera Seer. With Seer you are able to continually re-use your Bloodghasts to adjust the top of your library in hopes of getting a black card on top of your deck.
The biggest thing that makes me shy away from Nocturnus is that keeping the top card of your library revealed gives up valuable information to your opponent and to a point eliminates the element of surprise. A large part of MTG is not only playing cards.. but playing mind games. You never want to let your opponent know just what you have.
Mutavault is underwhelming unless you have a few Lords out. Otherwise you just have a colorless producing land, which can cripple your ability to get your cards off in a timely manner.And 18 lands is far too little. I would suggest 21-23 if your mana curves stays as-is.I also would drop AEther Vial to be completely honest.
2 days ago
I have several issues with this deck, which I will detail below:
AEther Vial is a rather poor fit here. You have 7 1-drops, 6 2-drops (2 of which you never want to be Vialing in because then you can't use the kicker), 3 3-drops, and 6 4-drops (!), which is the exact opposite of what you want in a Vial deck (lots of 2- or 3-drops, as long as most creatures in the deck have the same CMC). I'd probably move on from it, and that brings me to the next problem...
You have only 18 lands. As currently constructed, your deck is desperately hoping for an early AEther Vial, because otherwise casting things like Bloodline Keeper Flip and Vampire Nocturnus will be very hard, and without those, you probably don't win. Even tossing aside the previous point, you need more lands. I'd do at least 20, maybe even 22, depending on deck composition. That leads me to the next point...
I don't like your creature selection past the 2-drops. Vampire Nocturnus is a bit difficult to make work (I suggest more fetchlands for on-demand deck shuffling if you stick with it), and Bloodline Keeper Flip is the type of card that looks great in practice but is difficult to use in a game. I also noticed you didn't have some of the easier to use Lords in Stromkirk Captain and Captivating Vampire, which is something I suggest you remedy. I also recommend Kalastria Highborn, because Gatekeeper of Malakir is basically a 3-drop.
Liliana of the Veil has questionable synergy with your deck. You basically never want to use the +1, and for a sorcery-speed sacrifice effect is overpriced. Consider Bile Blight, Geth's Verdict, or Dismember instead.
These should at least get the ball rolling.
2 days ago
@Boza: Pheardemons worded it weirdly and it took a long minute for me to realize what he was asking, but in regards to points 1 and 3 what he's asking is what happens when he puts Bloodline Keeper Flip's second activated ability on the stack multiple times, which will flip him back and forth. From Gatherer:
Activating Bloodline Keeper's last ability multiple times will cause it to transform into Lord of Lineage, then back again, and so on.
All self-references in abilities are actually saying "this object," and since it is not a new object the ability on the stack still reads "this object transforms" and sees it. But as you point out his status does not reset, so there's no real advantage to be gained.
Though it very rarely matters, transforming cards aren't changing face up/face down status. They are always considered face up and cannot be turned face down once in play, though they may enter the battlefield face down.
701.25c Although transforming a permanent uses the same physical action as turning a permanent face up or face down, they are different game actions. Abilities that trigger when a permanent is turned face down wont trigger when that permanent transforms, and so on.
711.8 If an effect allows a player to cast a double-faced card as a face-down creature spell, or if a double-faced card enters the battlefield face down, it will have the characteristics given to it by the rule or effect that caused it to be face down. That card remains hidden, using either a face-down checklist card or opaque sleeves. See rule 707, Face-Down Spells and Permanents.
711.8a While face down, a double-faced permanent cant transform. If it is turned face up, it will have its front face up.
711.9 Double-faced permanents cant be turned face down. If a spell or ability tries to turn a double-faced permanent face down, nothing happens.
711.7 When a double-faced permanent transforms, it doesn't become a new object. Any effects that applied to that permanent will continue to apply to it after it transforms.
2 days ago
I couldn't find this answer anywhere online, but maybe I didn't look in the right places. My question is Bloodline Keeper Flip can be flipped into Lord of Lineage Flip by paying one black mana, but if the ability is activated when Bloodline Keeper Flip is tapped and more than once can I tap Lord of Lineage Flip to add a vampire before if flips back to Bloodline Keeper Flip? Needless to say can I tap Bloodline Keeper Flip before it flips back to Lord of Lineage Flip?
|Power / Toughness||3/3|
|Avg. draft pick||1.32|
|Avg. cube pick||6.45|
|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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