Dimir Control - Help me make this competitive!
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Dec. 27, 2015, 10:06 p.m. by Eboksba
And by competitive, I mean the end goal is to make a tier 1/1.5ish deck. I'm a dimir player at heart, and it hurts me that no one has exactly played around with dimir on a very high playing field and had the deck survive long. As I understand it, Dimir decks that are Not Mill and Not Delver tend to get a terrible wrap. While I like delver, I want to make something unique. Something along the lines of beating up the other player with Undermine, were it legal. Anywho, I have here a list of cards that I compiled that scream "There's an unbelievably amazing deck in here, somewhere!" but I am having issues finding what it might be.
SO
The general strategem I want to try is a form of dimir deck wins. Sounds odd, and that's because it is. There's a good number of effects that can do it, Countersquall, Bump in the Night, and so forth. The challenge here is to make something along those lines without dipping into Red, because at that point, the whole thing will start leaning heavily towards more Rakdos, and then full on burn ("What's more efficient than lightning bolt? Nothing!" posts).
Help me make this competitive! The meta does not matter, and for the most part, neither does the sideboard. Presume for this exercise that every kind of deck out there that this deck'd run up against. (The point is focusing on the maindeck anyway).
So, if any of you would like to help, I could really use some advice on a few things/weird cards.
Reality Shift, how good/bad is it in modern?
Logic Knot in a non-Delver of Secrets Flip deck. Presume The appropriate amount of fetchlands/shocklands and coupled with Tombstalker.
Modest to minimal amount of ponderesque cards. Dark Confidant and other such effects would be the source of card draw. I want to make this competitive, so 4xThoughtseize and 2-3 Liliana of the Veil is in order.
Edicts mixed with a dash of Damnation should solve most creature deck issues. I have tested running 4x Geth's Verdict and 4x Smallpox as an excellent way to both slow down bogles, delver, tron (yes), zoo, and so forth. Token based decks, spirits, elves (ugh) and the like can be helped with Damnation (the 4th turn will be hit due to control strength of said deck). Lili's help. The most ironic thing is that when you run 13-14 edict effects, even fish in all it's glory is finally shut down, being a mix between tokens and zoo-like beasties.
Black's hand disruption coupled with Blue's denial in counter/discard/edict/boardwipe should be sufficient. I say this mostly because spot removal is still far to easy to dodge, far to many decks of all tiers rely on flash-hexproof and the like, a few because their critters get too big in response and a few others flash indestructible. Not often, but sometimes.
Creature support will fall along the lines of Taigo, Bob, Bloodghast, Tombstalker, possibly Delver of Secrets Flip if the proximity of spells is high enough.
Plus, Shadow of Doubt will help in sideboard. I always wanted to try it on a fetchland, and I love the flavor. Hurkyll's recall is also a must, along with some other classic sideboard stuff.
What am I missing in this equation? What do I need WITHOUT switching colors? I have pondered Grixis and dislike, mono black isn't sufficient outside of a weaker deck such as black devotion.
IzzetFanatic says... #3
you want some Inquisition of Kozilek they are better then the Thoughtseize in most cases. Remand is also OP
December 27, 2015 10:51 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #4
I like it!
"Dangerous To Recognize, Deadly Not To" is a dimir delver deck I threw together a few days ago, but it's hardly a delver deck. It doesn't play anything like grixis and UR delver decks, but it does make full use of Countersquall and Dark Confidant. Check it out! It's far from finished, but I like the start to it.
Now, for the control deck, I was actually about to start a decklist when I saw this post. The idea was started by DuTogira in the comments on the delver deck I linked above. Basically it's control with Vampire Nighthawk and Gus
to gain a lot of life and stabilize and they serve as wincons as well, along with Ashiok and Lili. Kalitas is a new card coming in Oath that should make the deck work very well. Unfortunately the control deck can't use Countersquall as effectively because draining them has very little use in control, but being in UB allows use of a lot of very mana-intensive cards, such as Cryptic Command. I'm still thinking it through, but I don't think Dimir wants to be a full hard control deck.
Dimir, to me, seems like a fast midrange or a slow aggro deck. It establishes a clock then defends it, like a delver deck, but it's not limited to that plan and it doesn't use face burn to close out the game more quickly, but rather control to make the game last longer. It can also break off and win like a control deck with things like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver.
Oh yeah. I should say that this will never be tier 1, unfortunately. We're looking at tier 2 at best, but it could be a very fun tier 2 brew when done.
December 27, 2015 11:09 p.m.
Tier two is the lower end of what I'm hoping to achieve. I dunno, this project will become my baby and will receive a non-stop amount of playtesting similar to how Erebos and Kiku EDH decks have (no other decks for 8-9-10 months in a row.) It'll also be a money investment, so I also want it serious, meaning I will not stop until it can handle the full suite of tier 2 decks, bumping this to a tier 1.5ish.
So, further thoughts. I like the look and feel of your deck list @ToolmasterofBrainerd. It has the correct feel, and I would end up wanting to perfect this style of deck to become a serious thing that feels flavorful and deserving of the mind tricks of the dimir.
So lets pull up a preliminary list here. I will post several cards, merely list them to help brainstorm, and see if anyone can help me see anything that no one else has.
Note: Game is expected to win turn 5, be in position of power by turn 4. This will be a midrange deck.
Logic Knot <----
This one in particular seems to have incredible underplay value. Used right, it's an outright counterspell, used too often, it's a dead card. Still, uu is always a powerful simplistic out-of-no-where-I-do-what-I-want counterspell, and that's always nice.
Remand (? Unsold that this would be better in Dimir than say,Spell Pierce.)
Thoughtscour <--
for use only for fueling a delve.
Dash Hopes <-- K, serious talk time. This card screams jank. Every one I speak to says jank. I said jank. Then I looked at it differently. It's not a counter spell, it's an instant speed 2 drop lava axe that reads "When opponent makes a great play you can't deal with, deal 5 damage to them. Otherwise, if opponent's play is of medium threat, counter target spell." It might be useless with dimir (instead of mono-black) in the mix now but early preliminary tests have already shown an average of 10 damage per game where they are available. Isn't competitive to stop Twin, but can seriously chunk tron and the others. Maybe there's some genius, maybe not. It's hard to pass up 5 loss of life with bb.
Ideas? Things/notions to get out of my head?
December 27, 2015 11:44 p.m. Edited.
Counterbalance <-- Possible use? Most everything here is 1-2. Unlikely, nevermind.
December 27, 2015 11:55 p.m.
This is kind of near the end of any of the unique effects that could work. The rest will be classic whatever modern spells. I will compile a list of these and let everyone know what appears to work at first.
December 28, 2015 12:27 a.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #8
The way to make Dimir work is that you have to be pressuring your opponent so cards like Dash Hopes and Countersquall have an effect. I REALLY like the idea of running them alongside each other.
Scratch Dimir Charm. I love that card, but it's not good. I'd know, I've played with it a lot.
No for Bump in the Night. Too aggressive for Dimir. We want to be controlling and draining life at the same time, not purely draining. That effect belongs in all-out aggro decks, not control tempo decks.
Definitely no to Isochron Scepter. Too fragile, among other big flaws.
Not a fan of Death's Shadow in a control-ish deck. It just feels clunky and do-nothing unless you build around it, which is certainly possible with things like Dismember, but it won't be anywhere close to tier 1.5.
Bloodghast works best with Faithless Looting, which isn't in Dimir colors. And no, functional reprints such as Dimir Charm and Thought Scour won't work because they have many flaws that Looting fixes. Just trust me on this one because my paper deck, Rocket Science, is built around the Bloodghast + Faithless Looting synergy. Now, that doesn't say we can't run Bloodghast because he does have notable synergy with Smallpox, but we definitely should NOT build around those 2 cards. It will be much worse than any existing Pox deck, which are already tier 2.
Logic Knot is a 2-of at most, and no more, but a 2-of seems nice if we can get it to work.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler are the preferred delve cards to run in a red delver deck. For this deck, I think you're right that Tombstalker might actually be better because it flies, so it's a better clock, even though it costs BB, which shouldn't be a problem in this deck. Good thinking! That 8 cmc is a bit high, though. I'd cry if I flipped it on Dark Confidant.
Imp's Mischief doesn't look powerful enough, unfortunately. I can't think of anything worth redirecting, personally.
Most of the rest of the cards seem right-on for what the deck wants to do, but generally too big and slow. The idea is we need to be pressuring them from turn 1. Bitterblossom is the one card I completely forgot about and is exactly what we need. Bob is a 4-of, undoubtedly.
The cards in your last post are all way too jank. Not playable in modern because they're way too conditional. Unique, yes, but not in a good way.
Death Rattle is way worse than Murderous Cut. Gitaxian Probe is likely too life-intensive, but maybe not. We'll see. I prefer Echoing Truth to Vapor Snag because Dimir has no way to deal with enchantments and no good ways to deal with tokens. I prefer Dismember over Victim of Night, but they're interchangeable.
Okay, gameplan time. It seems like we have a few ways to utilize creatures through sacrificing them, and a handful of creatures that we can sacrifice after they enter the battlefield, but this isn't universally true. Our sac outlets include Smallpox and Rite of Consumption, both of which are great attrition elements. Our sacrificeable cards are Vendilion Clique, Bloodghast, Bitterblossom tokens, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant when our life gets too low, and also anything we snag off of Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. We have all sorts of 'ping for one' stapled to 'you lose tempo' cards which seem pretty powerful to me. If every spell we play passively drains them while controlling the game, plus we have efficient creatures that aren't necessarily meant to win super fast, but can establish a clock for us, then it sounds like we have a deck. Let's start to draft out a decklist. At this point, you should make an actual deck page for this that we can start to draft out.
December 28, 2015 1:26 a.m.
Well the second I see a deck page I'll be all over helping this idea out, but be VERY careful about delver cards and bob. Modern is already full of cards that use you life as a resource, especially in Dimir colors. If you aren't careful you could just die to two Lightning Bolts and your own bob. I would try to limit myself to 2 high costed creatures with delve.
Beyond generic advice though... Until this draft is made and I know whether we are shooting for control or tempo, I have nothing else to give.
December 28, 2015 4:01 a.m.
if i were you i would go for a control delve. not trying to win by t5, but trying to make the game last so that you can play your massive delve creatures for 1 mana and be able to counter whatever threatens them. winning t5 is aggro, but it doesnt always work that well in delve. also, if they have relic of progen, jotun grunt, or any real sb, you are dead.
December 28, 2015 8:01 a.m.
Thank you everyone for your comments! I am now compiling and constructing at least 2 versions of this deck, one focusing on drain/control (A Bump in the Night clock), and another through control/delve clock (leave em weak then Tombstalker). One will be control, another tempo, and see what we got.
I will try Tasigur in both renditions. Give me several days.
I do agree with DuTogira, I don't need 4, maybe even 3 Tombstalkers if Bob's going in. Paying 8 life hurts. Maybe as a weird combo with Rite of Consumption and Death's Shadow? I'll play around and let everyone know how it went.
December 28, 2015 1:22 p.m.
I have immediately hit a hitch in the drain/control deck. I need a fantastic way to sac-to-great-effect for small tokens. I am thinking in a large number of matchups, these tokens will not be able to work on the offensive, e.g. Bloodghast can't block, but attacking will just mean its death. I need cards like Rite of Consumption that work better with small weenie cards, things like Bone Splinters, if Bone Splinters were competitive.
December 28, 2015 1:45 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #13
I hate to say it, but I think you're going about that deck the wrong way. You're building it like an Aristocrats build, which only works as an Aristocrats deck. To build a drain/control, you have to play cards that individually drain and control, not only synergies that do this. I'll go to the deck page and give a more detailed comment.
December 28, 2015 2:58 p.m.
The decks are only about 20% finished, here are both links so I can make sure you're looking at the correct ones:
EDIT - Perhaps I should have clarified, the drain build is still the general way to go, however I am hoping for another synergistic way to use the tokens/small fry should they become useless. It is entirely possible the longer, control/delve variant will drop Bloodghast. I haven't even started the decks yet, but will once the decks look nice.
December 28, 2015 3:23 p.m. Edited.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #15
Here's my attempt! It's a lot better than I was expecting out of an initial list.
December 28, 2015 8:01 p.m.
I know, I'm looking over it now and pondering. Expect a response in a moment.
December 28, 2015 8:06 p.m.
Dimir Death Drain TEST Here is my version...I just copied ToolmasterOfBrainerd's list and made adjustments...I like the disruption package and super-friend style...I feel like aggressively attacking their resources through hand disruption and card removal you eliminate most threats that any decks would have, and your removal and sweepers should take care of the rest. You have a ton of recursion and you can pitch extra copies of any of your legendaries to each other...
car says... #2
4 thought scour. maybe tome scour. jace? tasigur is good here. logic knot is good with scours. mana leak is in need. Remand, spell snare, cryptic command. serum visions is always nice. mutilate is good, so is inquisition. u need snapcaster too. go for the throat is a good murder. lashwraith is good too. just some thoughts
December 27, 2015 10:24 p.m.