Which card should not be banned in EDH?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Sept. 19, 2014, 3:23 p.m. by canterlotguardian
Since the "Which card should be banned in EDH?" thread has gotten over 19 pages of responses so far, I figured I'd introduce the flip side of the coin: which card is currently banned, but that you think shouldn't be on the list?
My answer is Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary . Granted, it's stupid good ramp, but so is Gaea's Cradle and the Cradle isn't even close to being banned. Plus, it's limited by the number of Forests you have, so unless you're running mono-green, it's not as big of a "threat" as everyone says it is.
due to the rules committee doing away with the "banned as commander" specification, there is no way for rofellos to be unbanned without being available to be a commander.
if rofellos is your commander, you are playing mono-green. if you are playing mono-green, you are playing a high percentage of forests. rofellos does degenerate things when he is able to be played consistently on t2. green has access to more ramp, card draw spells, and gigantic fatties with enters the battlefield abilities. rofellos enables almost unbeatable ramped out shenanigans.
he can always be cast t2, and can probably be recast on t3, t4, t5, t6 in a deck devoted to ramping and fatties.
he definitely is too strong to be unbanned.
September 19, 2014 3:46 p.m.
as to the first question, i think the current banlist is ok. i think there are definitely more cards that should be on it, if they're going to have one. to me it makes more sense to call it a "strongly discouraged" list, as people can ban or unban whatever they feel like in their own playgroup. individual stores or tournament organizers can then use the list as a starting point, and ban or unban cards for the specific event they plan to run.
i also dislike doing away with the "banned as commander" specification, as rofellos and braids are both awesome cards that are fine as part of a 100 card deck when they can't be reliably cast from the command zone.
September 19, 2014 3:54 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
As the others have said, you probably don't understand exactly how powerful Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is. As a general, it provides constant access to extraordinary amounts of mana. You have to think beyond kitchen table play where people may only be dropping one land a turn for a while. Green has great land-to-field ramp, and Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is highly abusable with that kind of ramp. By comparison, Gaea's Cradle depends on a much, much larger investment of resources because you have to actually get those creatures onto the battlefield. You play lands over the course of the game and without disrupting your strategy. Creatures take time and mana to play, and it takes a long time to build up any considerable number of creatures unless you're running a token strategy.
My vote is actually for Primeval Titan . It's one of the most inconsistent bans the RC has ever announced. Their reasoning was that it instantly became the focus of the game, and it therefore warped the format. However, that hasn't been true in my experience. They claimed that once someone brought in Primeval Titan , the entire game was warped around countering it, killing it, copying it, or gaining control of it. This is a gross exaggeration of what happens. Sure, it's a good card. But it doesn't force you to drop everything you're doing to answer it. Can it generate advantage? Absolutely. That's why it was played. Any good card will generate advantage.
However, it's not just a "this card doesn't deserve to be banned" argument. The card deserves to be unbanned because it made many utility lands playable. There are plenty of great and interesting utility lands in EDH, and they often don't get played because they're not consistent enough as 1/99. Primeval Titan allows you to find those lands and set up interactions like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers . It allows you to find things like Boseiju, Who Shelters All or Deserted Temple . Cards that had to be cut from a lot of decks because there aren't enough playable land tutors to justify them.
September 19, 2014 4:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@shuflw: It's a ban list because some of those cards destroy the format, and because there needs to be a universal baseline so players have expectations.
September 19, 2014 4:03 p.m.
@Epochalyptik: in my experience, Primeval Titan warped the format in exactly the way the RC described. in a format where the person who has the most mana and the most cards in hand can more than often win the game, Primeval Titan became the focus of most games once it was cast or Bribery d out of a deck. also, i don't know if i agree that 3+ color decks should somewhat reliably have access to urborg+coffers. we can agree to disagree if it wasn't true in the matches you played, but i'd agree with the RC on this one for sure. Sylvan Primordial was starting to go down the same road, replacing the ability to tutor any utility land for the terrastodon effect.
the reason i don't agree with calling it a banlist is that the format is very loosely structured by design. some people play 1v1, some play multiplayer, some want to cast the biggest dumbest spells, some hate getting spells countered, some play Armageddon , some Hermit Druid combo. it's different for every playgroup. it's fine to call it a banlist because it's just a name, and it does give a universal baseline. but it's tough for me to think of it as a banlist, as each tournament or playgroup is free to alter it, and the deck construction rules say "These cards (and others like them) should not be played without prior agreement from the other players in the game."
also, for what it's worth, i don't understand why Mox Ruby is banned, but Sol Ring isn't.
September 19, 2014 4:28 p.m.
Viral_Assassin says... #8
I vote for both Primeval Titan and Griselbrand . Primeval Titan was the only Titan I open from that set and when I did immediately put it into my EDH for great reasons, then it went away lol. People hated it, they just didn't have enough or the correct removal I guess. I just want to be able to use Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Griselbrand in my Kaalia deck for obvious reasons. Most of my play groups allow me to use him though because they usually just knock me out of the game first before he even hits the table but most Kaalia deck pilots run into that :P.
September 19, 2014 4:29 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
@shuflw: Being flexible in structure does not preclude EDH from still having basic rules. Every tournament pod I've ever joined has gone by the rules as explicitly detailed by the RC, and nothing more or less.
As for Mox Ruby vs. Sol Ring , Sol Ring isn't free, and it doesn't produce colored mana.
@Viral_Assassin: Griselbrand is extremely broken in EDH.
September 19, 2014 4:41 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
The one card currently on the list that I might consider unbanning to see how things go is Library of Alexandria , but I wouldn't be surprised if that experiment ended in failure.
The only time I ever resolved Primeval Titan in a Commander game, it turned into the Primeval Titan game. Also, it's an easy tutor for combos that are extremely difficult to deal with. The reasons for banning Primeval Titan are basically a combination of the reasons for banning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Gifts Ungiven , but in a single card.
Griselbrand is basically Yawgmoth's Bargain but even easier to tutor for and abuse. "Do something trivially difficult -> draw 35 cards -> win" isn't okay.
September 19, 2014 4:48 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #11
@Epochalyptik: Griselbrand is broken in every format. The only question is, how quickly can you get him onto the field? With a format like Legacy or Vintage, that allows 4-of's for the staple reanimator cards, I could get Grizzles out T1 (Swamp -> Dark Ritual -> Entomb Grizzles then Animate Dead to bring him out). EDH, you have 99 cards and each is only a 1-of, which gives your deck an equal chance of drawing all of them. Granted, when he does hit, you have more than enough life total to work with, so I can kind of see why he was banned in EDH, but I don't see why he was banned there and not in some place like Legacy, where it's stupidly easy to get him out.
September 19, 2014 4:53 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
Because Legacy allows for stupid fast ranimator combos, and Griselbrand doesn't have the same effect in Legacy. Remember, EDH players start with 40 life. Remember also that Wizards manages Legacy and the RC manages EDH, and those two institutions have very different philosophies.
Also, the 1/99 argument is not convincing enough for creatures because there are plenty of tutors and card-to-yard effects that can enable a reaminator deck to function quickly and consistently. Even if you don't always get Griselbrand out on turn one, it still has huge impact even in the later turns, where drawing that many cards almost invariably leads to a win.
September 19, 2014 4:57 p.m.
LOLOLOL. Maybe if you're not playing like Imperial Seal and Necropotence . Edh is actually extremely consistent if you want it to be.
September 19, 2014 4:57 p.m.
Viral_Assassin says... #14
Oh I know that he is very stupid over powerd. I thought this was like a wish for a card to be off the list :P?
September 19, 2014 5:01 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #15
But that's my whole point. Why ban him in a format where it's hard(ish) to get him out, but not ban him in a format where it's incredibly easy to get him out? Because he'd have more of an impact in EDH than he would in Legacy? I'm pretty sure that in Legacy, if you drew 14 cards on T2, you'd be set up for a win just about as much as if you'd have drawn 35 cards on, say, T6 or T7 in EDH. Even more so, considering everyone seems to forget that Grizzles has lifelink, so you can just keep digging for answers even if you don't get them. And he has flying? He should probably just be banned in all formats tbh (except Standard lol).
September 19, 2014 5:01 p.m.
Viral_Assassin says... #16
Sorry, went back a re-read it. 'Shouldnt be on the list" gotcha.
September 19, 2014 5:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
There's a distinct difference between what we wish for and what should be, but I suppose you can wish if you like.
September 19, 2014 5:02 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #19
@canterlotguardian: You're still missing the point. It's not hard at all to get Griselbrand onto the battlefield in EDH. Sure, it might take you one turn longer because we can't play 4x Entomb , but we have a metric fuckton of tutors that enable us to get consistent T2 and T3 reanimations if we so desire.
September 19, 2014 5:04 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #20
Griselbrand might also be very strong in Legacy, but it's also much easier for a Legacy deck to either stop him or win first than it is a Commander deck.
September 19, 2014 5:04 p.m.
I cannot see justifying anything that is currently on the EDH ban lis being unbanned. I actually have a story to show why.
Just for giggles my group of friends proxied out EDH decks. With no ban list you could build with whatever you wanted. Coincidentally we all chose to play three colors. It was the most chaotic balls to wall pull your hair out game of magic I ever played. Two of the stars of the hate war were Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial . Either of those is shattered glass broken. Imagine three decks running even one of those cards in The same game. And the three of us with green ran both.
Griselbrand ~ was just oppressive.
Granted unbanning every card may not have been the best experiment but the point still stands that the ban list exists for a reason. And in my opinion, a very good reason.
September 19, 2014 5:06 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #22
It really all boils down to the luck of the draw. If i have 4 copies of a card, say Entomb , it's going to be much easier for me to get a copy (if not multiples) of that card in my opening hand in a 60 card deck, than it would be for me to get a singleton copy of a card in a 99 card deck. Granted, things like Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal exist, but my point still stands. Consistency trumps variety. Just because you have more ways of doing something, doesn't mean you're going to be able to do that thing very often.
September 19, 2014 5:06 p.m.
Viral_Assassin says... #23
Yeah, sorry again :(. I do not know then, other then the Titan.I haven't faced any decks with Braids, Cabal Minion so I am not sure as to how awful this thing might of been. At first glance I feel like it is out of place, but reading it over and just having some cards pop to mind that are even just in standard or modern play could really abuse a system as this. I still think Braids, Cabal Minion though.
September 19, 2014 5:08 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #24
"More ways of doing something" is almost the definition of consistency, especially for Commander.
September 19, 2014 5:09 p.m.
No, not really. 4 entombs in a 60 card deck is one card in 15. You could EASILY find 14-15 tutors in edh therefore giving you 1 card in 15 that can get him.
September 19, 2014 5:10 p.m.
Viral_Assassin - braids is horrific. You can T2 her fairly easily and force your opponent to sacrifice land every turn while you sit there with Bitterblossom or something.
September 19, 2014 5:11 p.m.
@Epochalyptik: my definition of the word "rule" doesn't include a clause that says "feel free to ignore this rule if everyone in your playgroup agrees." Wizards doesn't have a rule that says "you may only play one land per turn, unless your opponents agree that everyone can play as many lands as they feel like."
again, i feel like i'm arguing semantics, which i normally hate to do. i agree that a baseline set of rules is nice, and calling a "banlist" is probably the simplest solution. i'm mostly just arguing because i'm bored at work, so i can give it a rest.
Sol Ring is just as, and maybe more, powerful as any of the moxen. i think the only reason it isn't banned and the moxen are is that it's not on the reserved list. which seems like a bad reason for the spirit of the format.
September 19, 2014 5:16 p.m.
Viral_Assassin says... #28
That just spells bad JuJu! Makes me glad I have a small LGS that don't have access to some of these little nuggets of gold.
September 19, 2014 5:17 p.m.
There is not a single card on the banned list that should be unbanned. Granted, Rofellos will be sorely missed in my Azusa deck, he's just fucking crazy as a general. Considering the least oppressive card on the list is Worldfire , the list is pretty justified in my opinion.
September 19, 2014 5:26 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #30
@shuflw: I don't mean to sound demeaning, but it's hard to properly convey tone through a post. Do you understand how powerful free colored mana is? Sol Ring
at least takes your T1 land play to cast, so it sets you back a turn before you get that advantage. Yes, you get 
for free every turn, but it's not the same as just having a free extra land play whenever you draw a Mox. Plus, there are five colored Mox gems, so multicolored decks can have some stupid power available as soon as the game starts.
And being on the RL has nothing to do with them being banned.
@canterlotguardian: Again, no offense, but it sounds like you don't even understand what you're arguing. As Rhadamanthus and ChiefBell affirm, EDH's tutor availability is such that you can very easily guarantee the consistency of any strategy. Dominus - Dreamcrusher Edition (shamelessly plugging my own deck here for the sake of example) plays basically the same way every game precisely because it has some of the best tutors in the format.
Consistency is NOT hard to achieve in EDH. You're looking at it as a numbers game and you're seeing 1/99 and small numbers like it, but the reality is that the availability of tutors and redundant effects makes a number of things quite possible quite often.
September 19, 2014 5:28 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #31
I suppose I'm coming from a rather limited viewpoint, as my budget is so small I really can't afford many of the tutors that would make or break a situation like this. I usually don't run any tutors aside from Diabolic Tutor and Ring of Three Wishes so maybe I'm just not able to see the full picture because I've never been in such a situation myself to be able to pull off some nasty shit before anyone else can.
September 19, 2014 5:37 p.m.
Other than Oona, Queen of the Fae is Painter's Servant that bad in edh? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think its that broken....
September 19, 2014 5:43 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
@canterlotguardian: I suppose I can't blame you if you only play with those cards.
The sheer number of powerful 1- and 2-drop tutors in EDH is staggering.
September 19, 2014 5:49 p.m.
September 19, 2014 5:54 p.m.
@Epochalyptik: not offended. i understand and agree that moxen are very powerful. i believe sol ring is at or near the same level. 2 free colorless mana every turn with no drawback besides having to cast it for 1 is an advantage on par with what a mox gives. i don't see why a mox deserves to be banned when Sol Ring doesn't, as they promote the same idea of cheating extra mana into play on turn one with no other requirements other than: 1. include this in my deck and 2. draw this in my opening hand.
there is good reason these are banned in legacy and restricted in vintage in that they give one player a significat advantage in one of the two most important resources in the game. why have a baseline of banned cards at all if one player can arbitrarily have 2 extra mana every turn of the game just by the chance of drawing it in their opening hand?
September 19, 2014 5:54 p.m.
I was going to say that those are only two card interactions and that Deadeye Navigator and/or Palinchron are worse but I suppose they just give you infinite mana. painter's servant ends the game...so point taken.
September 19, 2014 6 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #37
@shuflw: Now you're starting to get into equal opportunity vs. equal outcome. The rules allow equal opportunity. They don't force equal outcome. Magic, no matter what format, is based partially on chance. All we can do as deckbuilders is design our decks to give us the most favorable chances and to still operate well enough when we don't get those chances.
And again, there are still differences between the Moxen and Sol Ring . Granted, they do some of the same things, but the fact that Sol Ring has a cost and only generates colorless mana seems to be enough to keep it legal.
September 19, 2014 6:02 p.m.
Lol@Epochalyptik for "metric fuckton"
Officially one of my new favorite phrases
September 19, 2014 6:07 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #39
Library of Alexandria would probably be the best one to come off the banned list, it is a powerful effect but it isn't stupidly oppressive.
Also I personally would love Recurring Nightmare to be off the list. I understand exactly why it is there, but it can be quite fun if not used with token generators.
September 19, 2014 6:09 p.m.
@lemmingllama or Kokusho, the Evening Star ...3 mana to gain 5x life, where x is the number of opponents is pretty amazing.
September 19, 2014 6:13 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #41
Every time the ban issue is brought up, I feel like I get further and further from understanding the criteria for banning a card.
Things that seem powerful (but manageable) like Primeval Titan
, Sylvan Primordial
, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
, and even Griselbrand
or Braids, Cabal Minion
are banned and lauded as too exploitable, but things that have a much more direct and definitive impact on the game, like Magister Sphinx
or Sorin Markov
, are somehow decisively not a problem for the majority of people.
People will groan at "I win" cards like Epic Struggle , Helix Pinnacle , and Darksteel Reactor , and even agree with the banning of cards like Coalition Victory , but have no issues filling their decks with infinite combos.
My table hates when I play either of the two unbanned Eldrazi Titans because it will take resources away from them and are "unfair", but don't hesitate in the slightest to construct decks chalk full of counter spells, board wipes, land destruction, or decks that focus solely on milling out an opponent. I have been milled out for a lose, but not once has my 11 cost Eldrazi won the game just by existing.
The same group, which at one point was torn between playing and not playing with Commander damage, finally decided to play with Commander damage but for some reason still wont play with Infect.
I really don't know what side to be on anymore. Part of me wants to say "play everything" because it is impossible to say one card or strategy is better then another, but the other part of me would hate for every game to end with the same tired deck builds.
It feels like a situation where there is no right answer, because too many people have too many opinions about what the format should be about.
September 19, 2014 6:19 p.m.
@Epochalyptik: "Granted, they do some of the same things, but the fact that Sol Ring has a cost and only generates colorless mana seems to be enough to keep it legal."
i don't know anyone on the RC nor am i privy to any of their discussions, but i wonder if that statement is the only thing that separates it from a mox. another example of a commander-legal but legacy-banned and vintage-restricted mana rock is Mana Crypt . the drawback on that card matters less in highly competitive commander games that normally depend on combo victories than in normal 20-life constructed. so is two colorless mana really that much worse than one colored mana? i don't play competitive commander myself, but that is very hard to believe. especially when all of these mana rocks are banned in duel commander lists as well.
i just think that the format is expensive enough to build a truly competitive deck, and opening deckbuilding up to power nine cards would either discourage new players from playing (especially competitive spikes who want the best decks) or would lead to more players just proxying decks, neither of which the RC wants for the format. i'm only saying it's a possibility that there are other factors involved in the decision making than one colored mana is more powerful than two colorless.
September 19, 2014 6:24 p.m.
@HeroInMyOwnMind: that's why the creators of the format put the fine print on their "banlist." each group can find the right power level for their own kitchen table. if your friends are douches, talk them into your way, build a different deck, or find a different group of friends.
just know that when it comes to the all-powerful rules committee and their list of banned* cards, all the rest of us can do is complain :)
September 19, 2014 6:30 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind ~ that is really the point of issue. Everyone has opinions.
Think of it from this perspective. Think of it with Epoch's deck in mind. He gets infinite mana (of which there are several ways to do as a whole in the format) and repeatedly blink Sylvan Primordial . You just mass land destructioned your opponents as well as destroyed any useful non creature permanent. So things like Necropotence or Doubling Season that help you stay in the game just go away. Oppressive in biblical proportions.
Each of the cards banned is "suggested" when it comes to EDH from a competetive standpoint because with well oiled machines in mind the room for abuse is vast. But with casual the pioneers of EDH made that list with the addendum "do what you will" but those cards would make casual play unfun as a whole.
September 19, 2014 7:50 p.m.
I think i understand what shuflw is getting at to a point Epochalyptik.
T1 land and mox anything
T2 land and I have three mana open
But by comparison with Sol Ring
T1 land and Sol Ring
T2 land and I now have 4 mana
But I think what epoch is getting at is that in scenario one you possibly have up to 5 colors of mana available where as in scenario 2 you have at best 4 colors which may not seem like much but as most EDH decks are only 3 colors or less instead you now have double or even triple color (meaning like UUU) already available and versatility and being able to do what you want to do when you need to do it in EDH is extremely important.
Probably a very poor breakdown but it's the best I could type out on my phone. Lol
September 19, 2014 8:45 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #46
You can also do a lot more with two colored mana on turn one. Yes, Sol Ring
gives you more mana overall, but color is extremely important. If you open with a T1 Sol Ring
, you have a tapped color source (maybe) and .
It may very well be that the RC decided to keep it banned when they looked at the Legacy and Vintage lists and decided that allowing Sol Ring , Mana Crypt , and Mana Vault would be enough of a consolation/bonus.
September 19, 2014 9:09 p.m.
My 2 cents on the moxen: Mana Crypt is probably on par with them. But I feel like banning it would cause an uproar from people who have invested in one.
Really, "free" mana is seriously powerful, colored or not. I'd argue that moxen should stay banned, and even add crypt to the list. Sure, it has a drawback, but having 3 mana turn one is a scary thing.
September 19, 2014 11:15 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #48
Honestly, the only card that I'd say should be unbanned is Painter's Servant .
I know it infinite combos with Grindstone , but it's pretty vulnerable as a creature. Sure it can make all your creatures protected from everything with Akroma's Memorial or Absolute Grace or Absolute Law , but it's not like there is a lack of board wipes in this format at all!
September 20, 2014 8:31 p.m.
I agree. Painters servant offers a lot to the format, even if it combos with one other card.
September 22, 2014 4:54 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #50
Bellock86 - I understand how the cards can be abused. The idea of banning any and every card that can be abused is absurd though, so I don't see why some take precedence over others. You say "oppressive in biblical proportions" like that particular combination is any more or less potent than any other combo that wins you the game.
How is that any worse than someone slapping a World Slayer on a cheap, indestructible commander?
I get min/maxing and optimizing, and I can even understand the appeal. I also know why people like puzzle piece combos that will win the game when everything is in place, and agree with the use of the tactic - to an extent. I even understand why people like to play infinite combos, though I disagree with their use.
My ability to sympathize with players who enjoy to play games that travel down these routes makes it all that much harder to understand the difference between banning and not banning certain cards.
People act like comparing some of these cards is like comparing apples and oranges. Like they are somehow night and day, and so vastly different in their conception that it should be obvious why one card would be banned and one would not be banned. The more I look at it though, the more I realize you really comparing apples to slightly different apples, so I can't accept the stigmas associated with certain cards anymore.
mowservision says... #2
Rofellos relies on hitting your land drops, which is very easy. The Cradle needs more and more creatures. Rofellos easily outclasses the Cradle in terms of speed and consistency.
September 19, 2014 3:42 p.m.