cEDH Preference

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on June 29, 2019, 7:39 p.m. by Randomsome1

Quick cEDH question. I'm looking for cheap, viable removal spells. What is your preference: Vandalblast , By Force , or neither.

If neither, I would greatly appreciate suggestions. I already know about Swords to Plowshares , Nature's Claim , Assassin's Trophy , and Path to Exile (Even thought the last 2 are questionable in cEDH)

NecroPony says... #2

The more I play the more I appreciate the versatility that Abrade gives me.

June 29, 2019 9:04 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #3

Vandalblast, without question. It's already a viable spell in specific metas and is liable to gain general viability with the printing of Urza and his popularity.

Gorilla Shaman is a card with a similar niche that could also be considered for that function, but each of these 3 choices comes with it's own disadvantages and advantages. Vandalblast is usually the best overall performer.

June 29, 2019 9:07 p.m.

Megalomania says... #4

Chain of Vapor . Path to Exile and Assassin’s Trophy are very cEDH viable. IMO, AT is much, much better than the red cards you mentioned.

June 29, 2019 9:20 p.m.

Shattering Spree isn't as common as it used to be, but its cool. Natural State Mental Misstep is kinda like removal. Stops a turn 1 carpet/sol ring/whatever

June 29, 2019 10:12 p.m.

Randomsome1 says... #6

Megalomania Thank you for reminding me about Chain of Vapor. The only reason why I think Assassin's Trophy and Path to Exile aren't as viable as the other spells is because they ramp your opponent which isn't ideal.

Nerdytimesorwhatever If I was running Mono Red or heavy Red+ Shatter Spree is just better than By Force since it can't be completely stopped without a Flusterstorm . I really like it, but the deck I'm considering doesn't run enough red sources for it to work to it's potential.

NecroPony I liked Abrade in more casual games than what I'm building a deck for. Mana rocks are a lot more rampant in my meta than mana dorks so I can focus on particular card types.

jaymc1130 Thank you for the input. Even without Urza, I can see how overloaded Vandalblast is more mana efficient than By Force in most cases now, appreciate it.

June 29, 2019 10:36 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #7

@ Randomsome1 Assassin's Trophy is terrific in most high level competitive games where players tend to run very few (if any at all) basic lands. Path of Exile similarly enjoys less of a drawback at the most competitive levels. These cards are terrific removal pieces in a high level cEDH environment and really only provide opponents ramp in mono color matchups or more casual metas. Don't let the "drawback" discourage you from using them against top tier competition as it likely won't be an issue.

June 29, 2019 10:44 p.m.

Megalomania says... #8

Giving an opponent a land for a potentially game-ending play is a trade i’d be willing to make any day. I personally dislike removal at sorcery speed so I would prefer AT and PTE over the red cards you sited.

June 29, 2019 11:02 p.m.

It is definitely meta and deck target dependant, obviously a 2 and probably 3 color deck could muster a basic, but if you see a T&T or FC sliver deck, go ham.

June 30, 2019 3:11 a.m.

Randomsome1 says... #10

That is the exact reason why I still play Assassins Trophy. Even with the drawback of ramping your opponent it can hit anything.

Path, to me, would exile a mana dork most of the time. the only time i see myself playing Sword and Path together is if someone in my meta starts playing more creature based decks: like Godo, Zada, Boonweaver, Bomberman, or Worldgorger (I'm playing Worldgorger combo).

I'm just starting to dip my feet into cEDH so this discussion is amazing for me to start thinking a bit more about my card choices and I feel like my removal package is a bit lacking

June 30, 2019 11:03 a.m.

IMMG54 says... #11

In cEDH, Assassin's Trophy is bonkers because most people are running UBx and very few basics. Chances are by the time you need to blow something up, they're already going to have their basic out. A personal favorite that works well in cEDH but not so much regular EDH is Abrupt Decay . An obscenely powerful removal spell. I run Nature's Claim in any of my cEDH decks that run green over any other regular blow up an artifact or enchantment, because in cEDH most of the time you're trying to assemble and infinite game-winning loop that doesn't care whether your opponent has 50 life or 30000. I'm curious to see what deck you run for cEDH, because I'm used to playing the usual 4-color non-red storm, but I've recently started playing mono-red stax. Vandalblast is the easiest choice to include by far over any other mass artifact removal. I usually ran shattering spree in my regular EDH decks since you might want to make friends, but cEDH doesn't usually have room for politics in my experience

June 30, 2019 12:17 p.m.

Randomsome1 says... #12

IMMG54 I always forget about Abrupt Decay because its not good outside of cEDH, thank you for the reminder. I love Nature's Claim and its in all my green deck, or I'm finding room for it.

I just started trying to build for cEDH and it is a hodge podge of combos and debatably just a hot mess at the moment. It's on private to keep it a surprise to my play group (and it's kind of embarrassing right now). Essentially, its 5 color reanimator combo with Demonic Consultation Tainted Pact back up win even though it non-bos with the other win. A friend of mine just built an Urza deck and I want to try to build a deck that doesn't just Dramatic Scepter win, like his does.

Right now, I am running Assassin's Trophy , Nature's Claim , Swords to Plowshares , Pact of Negation , Dispel , Pyroblast , Red Elemental Blast , Force of Will , and Swan Song right now and I feel like that is not even close to enough interaction.

June 30, 2019 1:01 p.m.

Ender02 says... #13

If you are playing a creature heavy deck, Aura Shards has always worked well for me.

June 30, 2019 3:01 p.m.

Well, yeah. 9 pieces of interaction in a 100 card deck is pretty low. I typically run a lot, as a control player I may be a bit off, Tryina leave room for combo packages and fun, if you want to see types of interaction frequently, you gotta run around 14-15 interaction spells. I run over 30 in my Rashmi deck, but we would be positioned very differently at a table.

You have 5 colors with which you can fold your opponents.

It depends on your meta, but various interaction will be extremely helpful. If you can't get decklists or a good general idea as to the composition of your playgroups decks, you could decide to run a little extra discard until you do, change what pieces you run to correspond to what you see, and slowly graduate out the worse discard spells. A Thoughtseize can pay dividends, but it can also be a misplay (taking someone's removal and then a relevant combo piece hits the field that nobody can deal with) but 99% of the time just point it at the combo dude and take a tutor or their gas.

You can run literally any and every type of interaction. Of the highest echelon available. Let the world be your oyster, and run Flusterstorm if you can afford to.

Sidenote, don't Path to Exile mana dorks lol

June 30, 2019 3:15 p.m.

IMMG54 says... #15

Is there a list we could look at, or is this just in general?

June 30, 2019 4:15 p.m.

Randomsome1 says... #16

I think that is one of my big problem: I cant get the right ratio between interaction, combo pieces, and tutors right. the other is: outside of counter spells I find myself coming up short finding good efficient removal spells that work in cEDH. Like, I know Abrupt Decay and Chain of Vapor exist, but just glaze over them because I just started thinking about cEDH

Right now there is a private list, but it's really me just throwing ideas around trying to find a win con that fits, and I actually understand, cough cough Flash Hulk piles and High Tide cough cough.

June 30, 2019 6:42 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #17

@ Randomsome1 The meta in cEDH is in the process of constant evolution and particularly right now a lot of change is happening. There's no hard set number of certain things you need to have, but there are some fundamental concepts in regards to what offers the best chance to win.

Efficiency is the most important core tenant. Every aspect of a deck should strive for maximum efficiency. The least possible number of dead cards for the best possible efficiency in opening hands. The smallest number of card slots possible devoted to enabling a particular combo strategy for efficient use of card slots. The lowest possible mana curve for efficient use of mana resources. The most possible interaction included for efficient access to potential solutions to problems that might arise. And so on and so on. Math is helpful to use to figure out ideal set ups.

For example, a mana ramp (typically dorks and rocks) count of 15 or 16 is seen as a mathematically ideal number of sources to enable fast starts. This gives the deck about a 1/6 chance of starting the game with a piece of ramp in the opening hand without having such a high density that you'll be flooded by ramp pieces without an appropriate number of interaction or board advancement pieces. Some decks might want or be able to run slightly more or slightly less depending on how the deck wants to operate, but 15ish is generally seen as a number that offers close to maximum efficiency.

Math can also be used to determine the efficiency of card slot use by considering how many slots are devoted to a particular thing. For example, standard Paradox Scepter lists run 3 primary combo pieces that are unique inclusions devoted to enabling the combo: Paradox Engine, Isochron Scepter, and Dramatic Reversal. Standard DD/Shinmer Zur lists run at least 5 unique primary combo devoted pieces: Gush, Doomsday, Lab Maniac, Shimmer Myr, and Aetherflux Reservoir. Standard Breakfast Hulk lists typically run 10+ unique pieces devoted to combos: Hermit Druid, Flash, Protean Hulk, Nomads of en-Kor, Grand Abolisher, Narcomeba, Cephalid Illusionist, Angel of Glory's Rise or Muldrotha, Dread Return, Hapless Researcher, and Lab Maniac. Given this it's easy to see standard PS lists are the most slot efficient, DD/Shimmer lists are less efficient, and Flash Hulk is very inefficient. These degrees of efficiency dictate how each deck wants to operate and play it's game as well as how many slots are then available to facilitate reactive play as opposed to proactive play. Decks that are less able to play reactive styles generally want to play faster and decks that are more reactive generally are happy with slower paced games.

When it comes to cEDH it all really boils down to efficiency, so starting to think about each individual card in terms of how efficiently it helps a deck to do it's thing is going to be the best way to analyze what things you want to include or not include in a competitive level list.

June 30, 2019 8:21 p.m.

IMMG54 says... #18

I recommend a good beginner list is any sort of storm deck that utilizes Paradox Engine or Dramatic Scepter because those are extremely straightforward, nothing is really a "dead" draw with Thrasios and Tymna in my opinion. Turns out running 2 of the best card draw commanders for CMC helps you generate some serious card value. A personal favorite of mine to play is 4-color Aluren decks, but those are a little less straightforward.

June 30, 2019 8:41 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #19

@ IMMG54 I think PS Thrasios/Tymna is a deck that is very straightforward about how it wants to utilize its combo, but is actually one of the much more complicated decks to pilot as it relies on a heavily reactive gameplan and extremely accurate in game threat analysis. It's much harder, I think, for newer cEDH players to start with one of the most cerebral decks in the format and a deck like Gitrog Monster, Flash Hulk, or DD/Shimmer Zur are easier places to start despite the combo utilization elements being complicated. It's very hard to assess the threat one of these decks poses to you if you don't understand what portions of its combo are vulnerable to disruption and how they can be disrupted. Proxying and playing those styles of decks first to understand how some cEDH staples operate greatly enhances one's ability to pilot a deck like 4C Rashmi or Paradox Scepter Tasigur properly against those decks. No one includes primer info on how to assess threats while piloting a deck, but a lot of popular decks include detailed primers on how a particular deck operates and the stages where it is vulnerable and what it is vulnerable to.

June 30, 2019 8:55 p.m.

Randomsome1 says... #20

Wow, so my ratioes were completely scued. My friend is already doing Paradox Scepter Urza. So, even though that was my go to win, when I was looking at cEDH just for inspiration for my decks, I want to try to not use that. I have been thinking of Storm Kess and Consultation Kess, but I have a hard time finding complete optimized lists for inspiration.

Previously, I did goof around and made a Taigam, Ojutai Master and a Fblthp, the Lost Xerox. But, as I said, the wincons are the same as my friends Urza and I want to try and avoid redundancy. I can make those public for you to see where I am at with understanding the format if you would like

June 30, 2019 9:01 p.m.

IMMG54 says... #21

Ok well if you want to murder your friend's strategy and also lose them as a friend, any sort of derevi stasis will shut down practically everything. It's difficult to pilot, but if you play it right it plays the same way every time but wins while making life miserable. Derevi usually neuters most people's strategy, and theres an extremely optimized list on this website I refer to often.

June 30, 2019 9:45 p.m.

Making your lists public is one of the best ways for the forum to help! You can "deckcycle" to the front of tappedout's homepage once a day unless you're a premium boi, then you can do it 3 times a day.

June 30, 2019 10:12 p.m.

AKBZ says... #23

If you are looking for competitive reanimator that isn’t Flash /// Protean Hulk you could do Razaketh, the Foulblooded /// Life / Death combo. Here is a deck list with a primer explaining everything. https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/razakats/

July 1, 2019 3:14 a.m.

enpc says... #24

As has been mentioned by a few people here - your main focus on cEDH removal is its inexpensiveness to play. The drawback of giving an opponent a land (or some kind of value) is irrelevnat compared to impeding their strategy.

With regards to good removal, here are a few (some have already been listed however I am listing them again here for a consolidatedish list), however this is by no means complete:

Single target creature:

Swords to Plowshares , Path to Exile (if you already run swords), Pongify , Rapid Hybridization , Fatal Push (this is meta dependent), Reality Shift (can form a win condition)

Single target multiple options:

Assassin's Trophy , Abrupt Decay , Chain of Vapor , Red Elemental Blast , Pyroblast , Beast Within (good for mono-green), Cyclonic Rift

Single target artifact/enchantment:

Nature's Claim , Natural State , Fragmentize , Abrade

Multi-target creature:

Toxic Deluge , Rolling Earthquake , Fire Covenant

Multi-target artifact/enchantment:

By Force , Meltdown , Force of Vigor

July 1, 2019 10:21 a.m.

Natural State while not being as good as natures claim, has been a godsend in my karador deck for pushing through with my combo. Protean Hulk has become a bit of the boogeyman in our meta so people have started to run more graveyard hate. Turns out, almost all of the gy hate being run is cmc 3 or less artifacts or enchantments so it is great to have 2 different potential options to turn 1 kill a Grafdigger's Cage or open up your way to a win if you only have 1 extra mana.

July 1, 2019 10:22 a.m.

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