|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Printings View all
|Masters Edition IV (ME4)||Uncommon|
|The Dark (DRK)||Uncommon|
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Book of Rass
, Pay 2 life: Draw a card.
Book of Rass Discussion
1 month ago
Heya Koios, not much cards come to mind here are some cards that fit the bill:
- Book of Rass
- Dovin, Architect of Law
- Dovin Baan
- Dovin's Acuity
- Ojutai's Command
- River Hoopoe
- Spiritual Focus
- Tatyova, Benthic Druid
- Teferi, Timebender
- Well of Lost Dreams You pretty have the top two cards considered in your deck already that being Dawn of Hope and Drogskol Reaver . The other cards are pretty subpar with maybe Dovin's Acuity because of the reuseability. I can see that your deck also a bit half and half, but feel free to ask for any advice! Always down to help people fine tune their decks!
1 month ago
Pikobyte The idea reminded me of so many cool games that I could not help myself writing you down a novel!
And I totally understand your point. Always seeking for more ''competitiveness'' fastly becomes boring and kills all the fun of EDH. That's why I dismantled Hokori in the end - even if it was solid and flavorful, it was just too disruptive and unfun to face for other players.
If you like cards that we rarely see, give a try to Barl's Cage . I only tried it once in a control-ish Azorius Taigam, Ojutai Master deck and I was amazed by its potential. It's still pretty much a funny card, and isn't too disruptive either.
If you feel like you're still lacking card draw, there are multiple viable options you don't actually run. As mentioned in my previous comment, Dawn of Hope is likable. Armistice is playable and good at politics. Alms Collector is a suitable meta depending tool. Tamiyo's Journal , Book of Rass (the book basically is a non-black, lot worse, Erebos/Greed) are both a bit expensive for their respective effects, but they're also effective if you really need that.
If you don't mind giving it a look, as I'm looking for some feedbacks to ameliorate my own brews, here's the last of my EDH decklist I updated on this site : Ishai and Ludevic
1 month ago
I was intrigued and looked for your list, but I didn't see it on TappedOut. We should compare, at the very least!
In any case, sorry it took so long to write this response. I wanted to try and break down what I think are your main points, and, well, I apologize if I misinterpreted you, but here's what I got out of your comment:
The way I read it, it looks like you're saying the deck needs to be slower. This reading is a little unfair on my part, possibly a little too overly hostile, but, I mean, I can't fathom a turn-six kill when I play a card like Peregrination on turn four. Like, that's just not going to happen. And if you're arguing that the deck becomes more able to grind, well, I have two problems with that:
First, I guess I don't know your meta entirely, but do non-optomized tables not just gun for Sasaya immediately? Like, even just reading what she does kind of sets off some alarm bells, doesn't it? I know everytime I play with somebody new, whenever I get to the "So if I have six Forests out, they all tap for six green" bit, the inevitable response is something akin to "Oh, that's not good." And then if the combo does work, all the more incentive to get targeted next game, or next week, or whenever I play the deck again. That's why I aim for speed above everything else, because if I don't, well, I just get run over.
Second, the methods you suggest of becoming more resilient don't really work? Like, yeah, Howling Mine has its uses, but I'd really rather not give my opponents more cards to beat me with, because I'm still the target. It's also why I'm skeptical of Oath of Druids . It's not that I probably won't get free stuff, it's that other people get free stuff first, and when Sasaya's on top of the hill -- a position the deck's going to be in until it's dead -- all that free stuff is headed right at me. I figure you disagree with me about this -- I mean, you did talk about how people want to deal with other people's threats -- but that really hasn't been my experience.
Incidentally, these are the reasons I cut utility lands as well. They do have a use. Of course they have a use. But that use is kind of marginal when just playing them makes the deck slower. If they were named "Forest" or "Snow-Covered Forest", we might be talking, but they're not. The only instance I can imagine where that wouldn't be the case is hitting one off of Oracle of Mul Daya , and that seems kind of marginal at best. I've mentioned this before, but sometimes I'm not even sure Scrying Sheets belongs in this deck.
But, speaking of Utility lands, let's talk Reliquary Tower . Or, I guess more specifically, "no max hand size" effects and why I think they're bad/overrated:
So the consensus as far as I understand it in "real EDH" (read: non-Sasaya) circles is that these cards (Reliquary Tower specifically, though I imagine Spellbook and Library of Leng have similar reasoning (at least Thought Vessel is a mana rock)) are kind of win-more. Like, there is definitely the feel-bad psychological effect of casting a big Blue Sun's Zenith , not finding an outlet for all those cards, and having to discard all the way back down to seven, effectively wasting all that mana, but if you think about it, at the end of the day you're still keeping seven really good cards. So that plus the fact that the graveyard is much more of a resource in EDH than almost anywhere else, and the "no max hand size" effect starts to lose its luster.
But let's talk about Sasaya specifically. As you mentioned, seven lands is a lot of hand space. Under normal circumstances, that means you'll only really have room for one payoff spell, so it better be a good one (put a pin in this idea, we'll come back to it in a bit). But there are alternatives. Last paragraph, I talked about the feel-bad of not getting to keep that big hand, but remember how that big hand happened in the first place: a Blue Sun's Zenith. More specific to my point: an instant.
Continuing this thought experiment a little further, let's ask why a player might cast a 7+ card draw spell in the first place. One might imagine that a player casts such a draw spell hoping for an effect that removes their hand limit, but that's not the only possibility. They could also be looking for a specific combo -- a way to end the game. Compare that to Sasaya's instant-speed land searchers (a special shout-out to Yavimaya Elder !). In Sasaya's case, the payoff effect we're looking for is already in the Command Zone.
In my opinion, therefore, the deck doesn't need its hand limit removed because there are enough effects that ignore that limitation, and cards like Expedition Map that can find these cards aren't actually that good.
But the "why" for that specific claim is a different topic entirely. Let's talk about it!
In your post, you mentioned that cards like Cultivate , Kodama's Reach , and Peregrination were all "ideal ramp spells" for a Sasaya player, as they also added a land to the hand, therefore ending up card-positive. Now, I already dismissed Peregrination out of hand for being too slow, but it's important to include it here as well because I feel it has the same other trappings that might encourage a Sasaya player to play these cards. In short, I posit that these cards are, in fact, card-neutral at best.
This applies to Renegade Map et al. as well, but I'm just going to focus on the sorceries just for simplicity's sake. Let's examine a typical goldfish turn. First, the draw step. Obviously, they're at plus one card. Then, the goldfish plays a land, removing a card, then playing a non-land, which is minus another. If that non-land is a Cultivate effect, that only adds one card back, which leaves the goldfish more or less where they started. Because ramp becomes negligible once Sasaya flips (while there is certainly a difference between, say, eightteen starting mana and twenty-eight, I find it's not enough to worry about, and the difference between twenty-eight and forty is even less), that means the goldfish is spending three mana on nothing much at all (as a sidenote, you might notice Nissa's Pilgrimage and Evolution Charm in the deck, which seem to contradict this point. However, both of these cards have occasional upside potential. It doesn't always happen (and, in Pilgrimage's case, certainly never on Turn 3), but circumstances for it do exist, so they keep their slots).
The solution some Sasaya players offer is to stop making land drops, but that seems so tempo-negative to me. I feel that, if I do continue making land-drops, eventually I'll be able to cast these giant threats without the help of Sasaya, and could easily win the game that way.
Lastly, before I get into specific cards, I wanted to talk about the ramp spells I do play. Namely Azusa, Lost but Seeking and similar effects. I already mentioned the speed aspect of my build, and these cards are a part of that. To be more specific, these cards are in the deck to turn cards like Chord of Calling and Citanul Flute into more ramp if necessary, which, when you're going for a Sasaya flip and a kill in the same turn, is worth having in the toolbox. But these cards also function as pseudo-alternate win-conditions. As I alluded to just a paragraph above, the only difference between tapping ten lands for a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and tapping one or two is how smug the caster gets to feel. But the caster still gets an eldrazi in either method, so I don't think the difference in smugness is very big.
So now we come back to that pin I made earlier. Let's talk card specifics. Now, I've tried to go through a lot of these already, sifting through to get at your main points, but there are some notable stragglers, so let's take a look:
Summer Bloom : I've tried it. The problem is, because it's a one-shot effect, it's way too dead pre-flip. Azusa and her kin are both tutorable and stick around, so they're just better.
Skyship Weatherlight : This and Book of Rass are my two favorite suggestions, and I definitely want to try playing around with them on paper instead of just theorycrafting. If there's anything you take from this too-long screed, I want to thank you for bringing these cards to my attention.
Goblin Cannon : This was suggested before and I didn't really dismiss it off-hand, though I did ask "What do I cut?" I didn't have a good answer, then, though maybe it's -1 Akroma's Memorial , Hydra Broodmaster , and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa for +1 Goblin Cannon , Book of Rass , and Skyship Weatherlight ? I'm still hesitant because Kamahl at least is fine pre-flip (Broodmaster is bad yes, but not terrible. At least, I think there's a difference there), not to mention in my meta, effects like Crawlspace and Ensnaring Bridge are less popular than Leyline of Sanctity or even Aegis of the Gods . I guess there I'll have to test and see. You're right, by the way, about Akroma's Memorial being pretty dead 99% of the time, but it's the best haste outlet, and specific kill's been good enough for me.
If I didn't mention a card here, it's because it obviously is different from either my strategy as I've listed in various places, or is implicitly against the deckbuilding philosophy of my particular list. Or maybe I missed it, and you can bring it up if/when you respond.
In any case, thanks for the comment, and keep fighting the mono-green combo fight!
1 month ago
Always nice to find another Sasaya player! This deck is a hard nut to crack but I think you are on the absolute right track. I will try to share what works for me. As you surely know the deck plays vastly differently with and without a fliped Sasaya, so I will give you my thoughts for each part, as well as a few general things I found useful.
Pre-flip: This is the part where every mana spent counts. Spells you want to cast here should be as cheap as possible and make flipping easier. It seems kinda obvious but: to have 7 lands in hand, you have to have at least 7 cards in hand! Keeping your card count high while playing spells and lands is key for a fast flip. Continuous card draw like Howling Mine works great for this, top deck manipulation with Sensei's Divining Top is also nice. Spells like Gatecreeper Vine are essentially a land in your hand while providing a blocker too. Ramunap Excavator and Crucible of Worlds let you play fetch lands or cycle lands from your graveyard keeping your stock in hand high. For that same reason Cultivate , Kodama's Reach , Peregrination and Khalni Gem are the best ramp spells you can get. Renegade Map , Traveler's Amulet and Wanderer's Twig push you over the threshold right before the turn you need it. Yes, they erode your hand size at first but that's right when Gaea's Bounty and the likes come in.
Post-flip: Great, you got 7 lands in hand and can flip! But what else? City of Solitude would be another Dosan to protect you, but the real problem is finding a payoff card in a deck that is almost 70% setup. As you already play the Portal and the Ring, I guess you'll like Skyship Weatherlight too. You'll run out of life before you run out of mana with Book of Rass . Personally I prefer cards I can play pre-flip and can activate post-flip. Domesticated Hydra or Unyaro Bees look stupid when you play them, but finish off the most dangerous opponent quickly. Temur Sabertooth can be used in too many ways to count. Polukranos, World Eater is a boardwipe (together with Khamal, a landwipe too) and finishes off whoever can't play a blocker fast enough. Realm Seekers are huge or can get a new set of lands, in case someone removes Sasaya.
My personal favorite: Oath of Druids ! You wouldn't think it works, but it simply does. It is a fast way to find Life, hitting a payoff creature means you don't have to cast it and the overall confusion when something big jumps out of another deck is a great distraction. Everytime I play it, the game is a blast!
General thoughts: A few things, that come to mind, because they work for me. Please see this as constructive critique you can ignore too, if you think your deck works for you. Because every extra land drop lowers your card count I really don't like additional land drops. While they are great for ramping pre-flip, they postpone the flip and become almost negligible post-flip. Essentially they are rituals and I only consider Summer Bloom worth the slot. I see you don't play any utility lands, but I think Glacial Chasm is just too good to pass up. While we're on the topic of utility lands, I really think you should reconsider on playing cards that give no maximum hand size too. To reiterate: you can only reveal 7 lands if you have at least 7 cards in hand. Having the leeway of more cards beside your lands is what makes the effect a must have in my opinion. Library of Leng and Thought Vessel are worth their slots for me, next to the Tower. You not playing this effect creates a spiral: you still have to get up to 7 lands but you can never not consider what to do at your cleanup, suddenly searching for multiple lands becomes worse, then you have less food for spell mastery or delirium. Everything together is costing you at least 1 turn pre-flip. Especially if you chose not to play "no maximum hand size"-cards, but also in general, playing lands from your graveyard is always a good way to preserve your hand size. You state the the wave chain as your best win condition and you are absolutely right, it is the best. Still I don't like the Memorial just for how useless it is pre-flip. Let's be honest if the first Wave hits an E-Wit, you can Wave for the whole deck. What you win the game with in the end doesn't really matter. I like Goblin Canon because it can still work pre-flip in a pinch and still works in the wave.
Too many cards to suggest but I hope there are some cards you want to try out. If you have questions I'll gladly follow up. Cheers!
1 month ago
Sorry for double post...not sure how to edit comment.
I'm working on S&F deck like yours and I think Humble Defector isn't that good as reliable card draw considering all your burn he won't live long.
I think because we play boros, it's better to have more permanent and consistent card draw than one time draw. That's why only 2 are one time draw and the rest are permanent.
3 months ago
Here might be some good cheap removal and 'card draw'
Hope that helps!
4 months ago
Given the higher-than-average MSRP of this set, how much shall the reprints in it affect the prices of the cards? Surely, they shall decrease at least somewhat?
Another card that I would like to see reprinted is Book of Rass, since that card has not been reprinted in a long time, and it is a very useful card, as it is essentially a colorless version of Greed.
8 months ago
It may not look like it, but the best card draw for FS&SS is Book of Rass. An expendable life total, combined with multiple uses per turn, and Boros needing as much draw as possible, this card is great. Moo.
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