How to design white card draw for EDH
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Dec. 22, 2019, 10:07 a.m. by triproberts12
I don't honestly think it's that hard to make white card draw, if it could just beat out priorities no one cares about like Happily Ever After. Here's my solution, a white version of Syphon Mind based on the card Truce : [CARD NAME], 2WW, Sorcery, "Starting with you, each player may draw a card. Draw a card for each card drawn this way." 18 words. Doesn't step on blues' toes, since it's way underpowered relative to Concentrate or Trade Secrets . It feels very white-forward, being about generosity. Finally, a Touch of Brilliance with a punisher effect and two white pips isn't going to warp Limited color identity by encouraging players to splash white for card draw, but it could be the top end of a white or Boros aggro deck packed with 2 and 3-drops. Much like Crush Contraband , the effect is mediocre enough to print at uncommon for Limited play, but it becomes one of the best budget cards in mono-white EDH once it leaves the draft table.
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #3
I like that idea. And looking at how Happily Ever After is considered something new white has never done before, it seems WotC actually sees symetrical card draw as the new value mode for white.
So I'm pretty sure we'll get lots of symmetrical white card draw in the months to come.
December 22, 2019 3:01 p.m.
Something like Heartwood Storyteller but more white... Yes to more symmetrical draw
December 22, 2019 4:25 p.m.
Because white would be that teacher that asks if you are "going to share that with the class?". I want something like: whenever an opponent draws more than one card on a turn, any opponent may pay , that player's opponent's all draw a card.
December 22, 2019 4:50 p.m.
White is about Balance now that's normaly represented as pushing everyone down but I'd rather see stuff that pushes everyone up. Something like
WW2 sorcery
Chose target player with more cards in hand then you each player draws cards until they have that many cards in hand
December 22, 2019 8:09 p.m.
griffstick says... #7
I think Sandstone Oracle and Magus of the Balance is a template for white card draw. .
So it could be written.
"White card draw"
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, Each player draws cards equal to the player who controls the most cards in hand. Sacrifice "white card draw"
December 22, 2019 10:52 p.m.
griffstick says... #8
White has the identity of wanting "fair" play. With that being said.
White doesn't need card draw. White wants enchantments, life gain, and equipment. If you play a white deck that cares enough about one of these things then you will have card draw. But if you want card draw to be fair (and whites all about "fair" play) then Balance type effect spells are the only way to design such a card for white. Other wise since white is "fair". Well there's always Howling Mine , Font of Mythos , Temple Bell and other artifacts you can use that act "fair".
December 22, 2019 11:06 p.m.
griffstick says... #10
Mesa Enchantress , Bygone Bishop , Puresteel Paladin , Sram, Senior Edificer , Kor Spiritdancer , Sage's Reverie , Mentor of the Meek , and Dawn of Hope . All these are where white is going with card draw. And they are the strongest mono white card draw methods.
December 22, 2019 11:34 p.m. Edited.
To be honest, I think white should have card draw in the form of "draw a card, then put a card from your hand on the bottom of your library". In a sense, its playing fairly and allows draws, plus white already does stuff like putting stuff on top or bottom of libraries.
December 23, 2019 1:39 a.m.
How about something like
WW1 Emchantment At the end of your turn you may pay where X can be up to the amount of equipment or aura cards you control then you may draw that many cards.
Kinda plays into the white aura/equipment card draw while needing to pay a fair amount of mana to actually draw the cards needing to pay 2 to draw 1 or 4 to draw 2.
December 23, 2019 2:19 a.m.
griffstick says... #13
Joe_Ken_ that sounds worse than what colorless card draw can do. I think you should keep in mind what colorless card draw can do and use that as a bottom line.
"White card draw"
Enchantment
Whenever you cast an aura, equipment, or creature spell with cmc 3 or less you may pay if you do draw a card. Any opponent may pay to counter this effect.
, sacrifice "white card draw": draw 2 cards.
This seems perfect if you compare its power to Dawn of Hope and Smothering Tithe
December 23, 2019 2:04 p.m. Edited.
dingusdingo says... #14
The most effective card draw pieces happen with a trigger. You see this with cards like Runic Armasaur , Sylvan Library Rhystic Study and Dark Confidant , all powerful cards that see competitive play. We can divide most triggers into periodically (every upkeep/draw step/whatever) or upon event (When you play a type of spell, etc.).
Should you have to invest mana past the initial to draw cards? Any extra mana investment beyond the initial for the permanent significantly lowers the power level. Consider a card like Dawn of Hope . I was excited to brew when I initially saw, but paying for a draw eats up one resource to replenish another (in this case, mana for cards). White isn't particularly known for having explosive mana available, or ramping mana either. I think this option is definitely the weakest route, and the most likely to see printed.
Compare to competitive EDH powerhouse and annoying trigger generator Rhystic Study or Mystic Remora . Instead of costing you, it generates advantage by forcing opponents to spend resources or fall behind in a different type of resource.
If mono white does ever receive a face lift treatment for card draw, I see it being a non-periodical trigger that serves to equalize advantage or negate advantage. What do I mean? Imagine Rhystic Study except it fires off an opponent drawing a card. The opponent either gives you resource parity (they draw a card, you draw a card) or must spend resources ( mana to stop you from drawing a card) to negate the parity. It is also easy for me to imagine an offshoot creature of Runic Armasaur for white that fires off of different triggers. Opponent casts an artifact or enchantment? Draw a card. You have elements similar to a card like Balance without giving white a spell they can recur continuously to blast past their opponent.
Imagine Sandstone Oracle effect as a mono white sorcery. It would function similar to how people have abused the card Windfall throughout MTG history, with the exception that only the mono white player is doing the drawing. Any kind of recursion, fast mana, 0 cost permanents, and cheap utility permanents are going to make the card a headache. Consider its application outside of the mono white context. A Red White storm deck could use it with cards like Fork to draw far more cards than intended if you have mana available to dump instant speed cards between the two refill your hand spells. I think this effect printed at a playable cost (anything around ) would cause more problems than it solves.
How about gaining effective card advantage, say a card like Stitcher's Supplier ? I also imagine this to be a future out for white draw, especially when combined with anything that brings multiple permanents back from the GY. I consider the highly underrated Return to the Ranks to be an example of this. The problem is, flavoring cards going to the GY to suit the white color pie. I'm imagining a card similar to Oath of Lieges but counting cards in GY before milling yourself. Another route would be a permanent that triggers self mill upon life gain, a wholly white effect (and possibly holy too).
December 23, 2019 8:57 p.m.
griffstick says... #15
I found this on edh rec
Popular Mono-White Tribes:
- Angel (578 decks)
- Soldier (239 decks)
- Human (150 decks)
- Cat (55 decks)
- Spirit (46 decks)
- Cleric (30 decks)
- Knight (29 decks)
- Fox (16 decks)
Popular Mono-White Themes:
- Equipment (1305 decks)
- Artifact (242 decks)
- Aura (179 decks)
- Lifegain (156 decks)
- Flying (131 decks)
- Soldier Token (128 decks)
- Hatebear (120 decks)
- Stax (109 decks)
- Token (83 decks)
- Anthem (55 decks)
- Planeswalker (43 decks)
We can use this data and build the best fit for card draw in mono white.
December 23, 2019 10:46 p.m.
griffstick says... #16
Popular Angel color combinations:
- (578 decks)
- (93 decks)
- (309 decks)
- (73 decks)
- (330 decks)
- (59 decks)
Popular Themes for Angels:
- Lifegain (19 decks)
December 23, 2019 10:50 p.m.
Yes dingusdingo, I mentioned the same thing. Something like Heartwood Storyteller but more white. Or something like a more universal Mind's Eye , but white & more parallel with the "May" tag. Triggered effects that would be much more effective than some of these already done enchantress & Sram effects.
December 24, 2019 8:15 a.m.
Or, again, I think a white Mind's Eye style card that works off the "share with the class" idea to let that player's opponents draw... more all in like Wishmonger . Like a Wishmonger meets Alms Collector . Except the trigger would be less useless than Alms Collector
December 24, 2019 8:19 a.m.
triproberts12 says... #19
Well, I mostly like where this has gone. A few thoughts:
Gidgetimer , that's nice, but card draw is a necessity for Commander. It's not a "weakness," it's a disqualifier. Red isn't supposed to get enchantment removal, but it has Chaos Warp . Green isn't supposed to be able to directly deal with creatures, but Lignify and Kenrith's Transformation are better than 99% of white or black creature removal. Know what the best Wrath is? Cyclonic Rift . Yeah, it's not that great in 1-on-1 play, but it's a staple in Commander for a reason. That's why I designed a card that is strictly worse than a blue starter deck card from 1999 in two-player games, but still better than anything white currently has access to in EDH. Every other color has had it s weaknesses someone covered for EDH, even red, in recent years.
seshiro_of_the_orochi and dbpunk , That's not card draw. I think Temporary Truce might be underplayed, but in a casual commander game, tempo means exactly nothing, so getting one more threat while possibly putting an answer to it in one of your opponents' hands while giving the other two free cards is card disadvantage. Likewise, you actually want your lands, so overglorified scrying isn't card advantage. The reason why I made the design I did is because regardless of how your opponents choose, you're still going up cards against the table, which is what actually matters.
griffstick , I like your ideas about an enchantment with a delayed sac and hand-equalizing effects. I think those ideas are the closest to what I had in mind, in that the marginal value of those cards is highest for you as the mono-white player, so even if it's not the 5-cards to your opponents' 1, magical Christmasland scenario I was thinking, that still gets at the heart of where I think white should get card advantage. I pretty heavily disagree with the other stuff, though. That list of cards above is from over a decade of Magic, and I see those cards as proof of the failure to make mono-white viable in EDH. They all point towards white weenie and Voltron strategies, which just don't have what it takes to compete at even a 7/10 power-level table.
Ultimately, the problem, to me (and Maro, as he's talked about on his Drive to Work podcast), is that white card advantage strategies scale horribly in EDH. It's not just a matter of making Mentor of the Meek or Puresteel Paladin better, it's that those cards completely miss the mark.
December 24, 2019 1:20 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #20
Card draw is not a necessity in EDH. There are other ways to gain card advantage besides explicitly drawing a card and there are other resource advantages to consider besides cards. There are plenty of ways to build a mono-white deck that make it viable at low to mid power tables. At high powered tables not all strategies or commanders are going to be viable. This may mean that you find white's tools are not efficient enough. But to me that is the same as complaining that Axelrod Gunnarson isn't viable at high power tables. Splash a color if you are that concerned about drawing FFS.
December 25, 2019 8:25 a.m.
I think I side more with triproberts12 on this one. Shouldn't have to splash to have limited access to a necessity function (even if you do not feel it is a necessity). It also feels like some form of the semi-parallel draw would make a lot of sense for white, especially since it has some good limited swizzling of greens ramp game. It is not like anyone really wants to dilute the color pie further with generic draw effects, but creativity & unique draw techniques could go a long way for white.
December 25, 2019 9:31 a.m.
triproberts12 says... #22
Gleeock , most definitely. I think creativity is at the heart of what white needs. I definitely agree with Maro that the way to make white good at EDH isn't by making it more like other colors, but an experienced player would never mistake Boreas Charger for a green card. The end result might be the same as Cultivate or Viridian Emissary , but the means and philosophy are very clearly white.
December 26, 2019 12:06 a.m.
griffstick says... #23
I'm gonna make a white card that draws cards but plays like Rhystic Study .
"White card draw"
Whenever an opponent cast a spell if a player has more cards in hand than you draw a card, unless they pay .
December 26, 2019 10:49 a.m.
triproberts12 says... #25
Drawing to parity and Rhystic Study-type effects do seem promising. It almost makes me wonder if, rather than just dip into those strategies, they should become part of white's color pie. Mind's Eye and Sandstone Oracle basically only make it into mono-white strategies these days, so knocking them down to 3 and 5 mana, respectively, and blocking off that section of the color pie for white seems like the answer. After all, we've done it before. Remember when blue got pingers?
December 27, 2019 9:01 a.m.
griffstick says... #26
Ok now let's make it legendary
"Medomai, Chosen by Heliod"
Legendary Creature, Sphinx
Flying
When "Medomai, Chosen by Heliod" enters the battlefield, chose an opponent, if that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
discard a card: "Medomai, Chosen by Heliod" gains indestructible until end of turn.
4/5
December 27, 2019 10:43 p.m.
griffstick says... #28
The discard a card: "Medomai, Chosen by Heliod" gains indestructible until end of turn part of the card is a very crutial part of the card. This allows you to dump your hand and protect and later flicker it for more cards. Allowing you dig and draw for more answers and threats. Otherwise you just draw a few cards and you are done. By giving it the built in discard outlet this makes it a card you can build around.
December 27, 2019 11:22 p.m.
triproberts12 says... #29
Speaking of old artifact effects that have essentially become white, what about Torpor Orb ? Why isn't there a legendary creature in the model of Hushbringer / Hushwing Gryff / Tocatli Honor Guard ? I say if Sultai's identity is it can essentially do whatever the hell it wants (e.g. Yarok, the Desecrated ), white should get some universal smackdown.
Crotchety Mom, 2W, Legendary Creature - Human Cleric Noble, 0/5, "Permanents entering or leaving the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger. 2W, tap: Exile Crotchety Mom. Return it to the battlefield at the beginning of the next end step."
December 29, 2019 10:20 a.m.
Haha, yeah. They pretty much made Sultai the best @ resilient grind (for all card types) = Muldrotha, the Gravetide & then turned right around & made universal preferred trigger commander Yarok, the Desecrated ... Another issue there, but one of those 2 commanders basically made my buddies graveyard/resilience decks all obsolete with these "why use anything else?" Sultai commanders, & I feel like that is a shame. I don't like when blanket effects for one color combo eclipse all other decks that try for a piece of that pie.
December 29, 2019 10:45 a.m.
I would be less annoyed probably if those creatures weren't hefty body beefcakes
Gidgetimer says... #2
You don't need to design white card draw. It is ok for colors to have weaknesses.
December 22, 2019 12:53 p.m.