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|Commander / EDH||Legal|
|Commander: Rule 0||Legal|
Creature — Faerie
Creatures entering the battlefield or dying don't cause abilities to trigger. (Dying is being put into the graveyard from the battlefield. Tokens enter the graveyard before they cease to exist.)
2 weeks ago
Oh no! A functional monowhite commander! EVERYBODY PANIC!
Alright. I get that Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is a big deal. A decent statline, vigilance, Yarok, the Desecrated as one ability and a much, much, much better version of Hushbringer as the other. She's certainly a powerhouse. But should she see the hammer? I think not.
I'll not say that Machine Mom isn't disruptive. She can shut down a good amount of popular cards in the format, such as Bramble Sovereign, Terror of the Peaks, and the notorious combo piece Palinchron. She can and will double up monowhite Oblivion Ring style effects. Honestly, I think that doubling Seal Away type cards is going to be the stax-ier part of Mama Machine. She doesn't shut down many combo decks (unless they use the aforementioned Palinchron), and really doesn't answer most cEDH decks. She hates out on ETBs, sure, but Yasharn, Implacable Earth hates out on sacrifice, arguably better. Gaddock Teeg is just absurdly good stax, and both Gaddok and Yasharn grant access to Green.
If you want to make Elesh Norn stax, then, ok, that's probably a deck that will give everyone a headache. But... are we going to cry "BAN HER!" for one way of building around Machine Mommy? If you want to run stax, go and buy a Hokori, Dust Drinker or Oloro, Ageless Ascetic. They're much better depriving everyone of fun than New Norn. Elesh Norn can do so much more than just stop everyone from having fun.
Honestly, a lot of the complaints that I see here are against the Stax archetype in general, not Norn. And I get that Norn seems like a good Stax commander, but... If hate stax, than complain about Hokori, or Oloro, or yes, even Archelos, Lagoon Mystic. Stax has its place: cEDH and masochistic playgroups.
Something that no one here is referencing is the Game Knights video in which Josh Lee Kwai played with a (proxied) Elesh Norn, and his deck was oppressive, but nothing too bad. Notably, Norn's restrictive ability saw a lot less use than her double ability, which was used to double small value abilities, as well as oblivion ring effects. The deck won the game, but it was very close and I wouldn't say it made Norn look banable. Not by a long shot.
So, in conclusion, Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is a powerhouse, who certainly can be a problem, but probably isn't the worst card in EDH. Really, a lot of the complaints about her are complaints about Stax in general.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Also, did anyone else notice the fact that Navani (from Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive) and Elesh Norn have the same epithet? That always makes me crack up.
1 month ago
No, she doesn't shut down shocklands. Paying life for your shockland is not a trigger. It does not use the stack, you cannot react to it, just like you can't react to the creature type being named with a Cavern of Souls. Because the oracle text says "As ... enters the battlefield" not "When ... enters the battlefield".
It looks like the people defending her never played with Tocatli Honor Guard, Hushbringer, Torpor Orb or Hushwing Gryff and have no idea what the oracle text actually means. And Norn is worse, since it's every permanent entering the battlefield, not just creatures. Like Strict Proctor.
TypicalTimmy I looked at your Miirym deck, here's the "occasional benefits" Elesh Norn is actually going to shut down or interfere with:
That's a lot of synergy, ramp, carddraw and wincons shut down by a commander. About 1/3rd of all your nonland cards. And that deck is going to have a hard time removing her too, by the looks of it.
Now there are a few cards that get better playing against Norn: bouncelands like Boros Garrison don't return lands to hand anymore, Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger doesn't need to sacrifice itself, but effects like those are not enough to catch up with the Norn player.
What's this "no game-winning effects in white" everyone is talking about? Cathars' Crusade will end the game in a hurry, especially if you pair it up with something like Blessed Sanctuary. Double up on every O-ring effect. Stonehorn Dignitary will keep you alive, especially if you play Teleportation Circle and Conjurer's Closet, as one definitely will in this deck. Felidar Retreat and Emeria Shepherd with all your Land Tax effects will snowball into an enormous boardstate easily. Solitude will rule the table. Sun Titan is still one of the most played white creatures for a reason. For carddraw that white wasn't supposed to have, Spirited Companion, Carrier Pigeons, Combat Thresher, Farsight Adept, Inspiring Overseer, Mentor of the Meek, Priest of Ancient Lore, Resistance Squad, Roving Harper, Rumor Gatherer, Search Party Captain, Skyscanner, Thraben Inspector, Wall of Omens all double up with Norn. Because everyone memed that white is a bad colour, nobody seems to know what the color has to offer. It could already hold its own without such a saltmine of a card for the command zone, and if you need this middle finger to half the popular deck archetypes to even consider building it, you do you, but prepare to be avoided.
2 months ago
It is a static ability and is unaffected by Hushbringer.
The easy way to differentiate between activated, triggered, and static abilities is to look at the structure of how they are written. Sometimes you need to look at oracle text instead of printed text of older cards, but both of the mentioned cards are pretty recent and so this is unnecessary here.
Activated abilities are written in the form COST: EFFECT. There will always be a colon.
Triggered abilities start with the words "when", "whenever", or "at". Then it will have a trigger condition and effect separated by a comma.
Static abilities are written as statements. They are simply true of the game.
3 months ago
I would Remove
Winged Words cheap, not the first card to remove, but a bit weak in the long run
Hushbringer not so worth it
Bag of Holding too complicated
4 months ago
Okay. So, I think you should really lean into the control/combo shell. This deck could use combos like Sanguine Bond and Exquisite Blood, with some added redundancy in the forms of Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose and Marauding Blight-Priest, or Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion to close out the game. In order to accomplish this, I think you should cut a ton of the creatures and really lean into board wipes, control spells, and resource denial.
You could also do cute stuff like Phyrexian Unlife + Solemnity, giving yourself time to wipe the board again or go for the win with Peer into the Abyss. You should also consider taking a look at your mana base.
I'd suggest going for some fetches, checks, and shocks like:
I know I've given you a lot of suggestions. I think if you tried putting a list together with all the cards I named, plus some of the bangers from your current list and you'd have a badass deck! Don't worry about trying to do all that right now, though. See which look most appealing/are in your price range and add those first. A lot of these should be long term goals!
Don't tell Rett I gave you so many suggestions XD
4 months ago
Hey Alebasso, no bother at all! I only have a free account here so I can't have fancy updates showing cards in and out so I tried my best with my update section. Glad it got you to the correct answer because, yes, they aren't there because I never considered them for the deck.
I felt like Smith's etb ability is nice to get another body but growing was a bit slow, and you can't Ensoul them. My list goes to get damage in quick. If they searched for an enchantment and put the artifacts on the bottom instead of giving me a Gingerbrute and putting my enchantments on the bottom that would be nice. Plus with the addition of Hushbringer in the side running Smith is pretty bad because no etb trigger.
Patchwork was a brief thought but I played Hangarback Walker prior and felt that they are very similar and both was too slow as well. The ward ability is nice but can still be played around. Similar to Hangarback Walker where once destroyed he made at least one body, that was then shortly destroyed as well.
Not that either is a bad card I feel they don't fit with my deck. There are a few ways to build Ensoul. UR goes for more aggressive plays, UW is more artifact heavy, Jeskai is a bit of both. There may be other color combinations but I feel these are the most popular 3 and personally the best versions. I like Jeskai because you get a bit of both sides of the coin although playing it you need to figure out which side is better for what you have.
Both Ingenious Smith and Patchwork Automaton are decent cards but better in a more artifact heavy build like the UW version. I only have some of this artifact heavy aspect here but not enough to go "all in" on the specific archtype.
Hope that helped!
5 months ago
Thassa's Oracle and Demonic Consultation / Tainted Pact are rough Powerhouses that are specifically made to slip through Stax due to their efficient cost and are relatively easy to assemble... Sadly the speed of these can be vastly greater than ours at times.
Good options vs this sort of gameplan if it's prevalent :
5 months ago
If you're looking for help making cuts, the first step I would take is to look at your symmetrical stax pieces and see which ones hurt you the most:
Deafening Silence, Grafdigger's Cage, Containment Priest, Ethersworn Canonist, Hushbringer, Kataki, War's Wage, Leonin Arbiter, Rest in Peace, Sphere of Resistance, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Trinisphere, Sanctum Prelate, Rule of Law, Thorn of Amethyst, whew I think that's all.
Of these, you want to look at the ones which most hamper what you want to do, or have negative synergies with other cards you run. You have a few cards that say "draw", so Spirit of the Labyrinth is IMO the very first cut you should make.
The next ones I'd cut could take one of two routes: so, I'm thinking of cards like Ethersworn Canonist and Sphere of Resistance. These kind of innately have negative synergy - if people are paying more for spells, they're less likely to be able to cast multiple spells in the first place, meaning the Canonist's ability is wasted. You should consider going for one type of effect or the other, not both. (I wouldn't run either symmetrically in mono-white, personally).
Council's Judgment can probably be cut - you have great enough removal without running it.
kataki definitely needs to go with how many artifacts you're running.