Do you HATE infinite combos?
Challenges and Articles forum
Posted on Aug. 1, 2013, 9:46 p.m. by MagicalHacker
Then run cards that prevent people with infinite combos from winning instead of WHINING about it. If I use tools that together win me the game, you should learn how to damage those tools.
Does the infinite combo target you? 99% of them do. If they win by milling you out or dealing non-combat damage, chances are they can be stopped by giving yourself hexproof or shroud.
If they don't do that, they either gain infinite life, give a creature infinite power, make infinite tokens, getting infinite turns, or (VERY RARE) infinitely proliferating poison counters. Gaining infinite life is not necessarily an automatic win, but it can be pretty close to one. Here's how you beat someone with infinite life:
If however they give a creature infinite power, chances are that a simple Murder , Fog , or just chump blocking will let you live. Let's say that it is unblockable, shroud, it can't be sacrificed, and it's damage can't be prevented. What then? Normally, destroying it, chump blocking it, making them sacrifice it, or just Fog ging it would work. This is what you play:
Making infinite tokens happens pretty often, and it may seem that with the same situation as before (unpreventable damage, etc.) there aren't any cards to stop your opponent from winning, but there are more things that stop the win there than you think:
What about if they get infinite turns? This doesn't happen too often, but there are still cards that prevent you from losing in these situations:
Last, and probably least, infinite proliferation. There are only a handful of viable combos that can do this, but nevertheless, we can be prepared against it:
Any card that can tutor for Melira
This is by no means a complete list, but I want you to know that you CAN stop combos, you just need the right TOOLS...
MTG_Player says... #3
thank you for posting this, I too am tired of people complaining about combos. (as a competitive player)
August 1, 2013 10 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #4
Ohthenoises, LOL duh xD I totally forgot.
MTG_Player, youre welcome, I think it's immature and rude to complain about someone's playstyle. I always wonder what people would say if I demeaned aggro decks saying, "WOW, you're running one of THOSE DECKS. Seriously, you're just gonna attack me until I die? That's stupid and cheap. Tell me when you are going to learn to play magic like a civilized human being, okay?"
August 1, 2013 10:33 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #5
There's a big difference between playing combos in competitive decks and putting them in every deck you build. Casual EDH is generally the biggest culprit here.
I would say that most players won't have a problem with a person going infinite in a deck that is meant to play competitively against other competitive decks. Most players in that situation are going to be winning using combos, so you'll lose every time if you don't include them.
In casual games, however, there's nothing more boring than sitting across from someone who tutors three turns in a row and then plays out a combo. That's not playing a game, it's playing Solitaire. This is also the reason that nobody likes playing against Eggs. Casual games should be fun and interactive for all the players in the game, and if you ruin the spirit of that then nobody is going to want to play you.
As a sub-point, there are always going to be cards that hose a specific strategy, but not every deck runs those cards (or intends to play against hyper-competitive combos). If I ever see somebody drop a Copper Tablet against me, I'm going to look at them like they're crazy.
tldr; There is a time and a place for infinite combos, so it would be cool if people would stop playing them just to win casual games.
August 1, 2013 10:54 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #6
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people should learn to enjoy losing to a player that tutors and combos out.
I personally enjoy winning with an infinite combo, but in casual games, I'm not going to tutor for one.
Also, asking people to stop playing infinite combos for games intended to be fun is essentially asking us to stop having fun.
August 1, 2013 11 p.m.
ShimmerVoid says... #7
I don't mind people playing infinite combos in my playgroup because I have all the counter-spells in the world to deal with it. :D
August 1, 2013 11:05 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #8
THAT'S what people need to understand! If you're gonna run a deck that can't deal with an infinite combo, don't socially attack the player when you lose to one.
August 1, 2013 11:08 p.m.
When I first play with a casual group, even with people I'm familiar with, I tend to bring out a lower tier for fun deck, that first game lets me gauge everyone's intent, then I bring out a differe deck accordingly, not so much as an anti-match up, but more matching punch for punch. People play annoying douche deck, I bring douche in return. It's rarely a problem but I can understand why people complain about it, there is a line that needs to be drawn. The deck every tends to associate with me runs infinite combos, but while they hate it, they know how to watch out for it and deal with it accordingly. Most group tends to be self-regulating.
That said, competitive games is a different story, but sideboard almost always contain 3 artifact/enchantment hate, 3 graveyard hate, and 3 ability hoser, with the rest being whatever I need based on deck I run. That alone tends to cover any annoying shit I might have to deal with.
August 1, 2013 11:42 p.m.
EDH is a very social game so since people are often pretty comfortable with players that like a compatible style with their own - I don't see a problem with it. It probably isn't helpful to guilt people into either changing their style or adapting to a style they would rather opt not to given the choice.
That being said, I really like these suggestions and do use some of them already! I mostly just consider what sorts of things a deck I am using could either be weak to or benefit from (like getting cards into a graveyard that I can then steal using Golgari Charm ) - and I do use a few of these in many of my decks. The cards you listed are good against non-infinite combo strategies as well as infinite ones. It is worth considering since it is a little bit limiting to only play with other people that have a certain playstyle, at least that's my own opinion of it.
I would like to add that alternate win condition cards are another thing to consider using against some kinds of infinite combos (as well as just to throw a curve ball into a game when you draw them).
Additionally, there is nothing like a good counter-spell to break a combo. This is especially fun when you use the non-blue colored ones. How fun would it be to debate the concept of infinity after using a Mana Tithe on someone who just claimed to gain infinite life after generating infinite mana ...
@ShimmerVoid I got some complaints the first time I played it (which I chose to do because I had had a conversation with one of the people in that EDH pod a few nights ago about why his deck was unbeatable), so I wouldn't play my counterspell.deck: Talrand's Ideas Take Flight in just any situation - but in the situation where someone tutors to a combo and goes out, I would certainly use it and not feel bad about any complaining.
@Ohthenoises: did someone mention cheap? I resemble that remark!
August 1, 2013 11:46 p.m.
ShimmerVoid says... #11
@r3v13w: Yup. I save all my counters for when people start to go off with their combo that wins them the game too and I don't feel bad about it as that's the whole point of having counters in the first place - to stop people from winning with a massive time-consuming combo.
As funny as it sounds, my playgroup encourages others to disrupt the combos they are trying to pull off as well. I guess people in my group just like playing long drawn out games. :D
August 2, 2013 12:01 a.m.
@ShimmerVoid as I recall, mine was not the only counter spell played that game - we were all playing very esperish controlly decks in that round - and there were 6 or 7 of us doing it (I think there was one gruul player dealing damage when an opening happened now and then).
I rather enjoy a good rigorous drawn out game where people go back-and forth and recover and pull out the stops and try different paths to winning.
August 2, 2013 12:15 a.m.
lord_of_the_snakes says... #14
as a combo runner in modern, i can say that i dread most if not all of these cards,FYI if you see Xenograft in an ally deck, run
August 14, 2013 11:15 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #15
I am pondering making another article like this where I discuss interrupting combos not by how they win, but how they work. (Rest in Peace stops graveyard combos.) Would you guys care to see an article like that?
August 15, 2013 3:39 p.m.
Bobgalarneau says... #16
My only complain about combo is in EDH. Those combo decks all seems to run the same cards, with those same obvious combo.... Triskelion , Mikaeus, the Unhallowed anyone? I'm not sure if the problem comes from winning with a combo or if it's that every games played against some some deck are always the same, played the exact same way...
All those answers to combo are nice, but i don't feel they are worth pulling out a card from any of my deck just in case i get a combo opponnent. And sideboard is not as effective in a 100 singleton as it is in other formats...
Anyway... I agree with your post. Stop whinning, we are not playing barbie... If you don't like loosing to a combo, find an answer or another strategy to win...
August 15, 2013 11:36 p.m.
My issue with combos is similar to landgrafb's point. I definitely get why they're fun, and I understand there are ways to stop any given combo. In casual games though, it really sucks when someone spends 20 minutes combo-ing out.
In general our playgroup doesn't play full sets of three games, so a sideboard doesn't come into effect, which is really the only thing that makes combos beatable (unless your entire deck just hates on them by playing the cards you mention mainboard). If sideboards are common/available, I don't see any reason to complain about it, combos really aren't that great in a situation where a sideboard shuts the deck down Rest in Peace style. In casual/multiplayer though that's usually not the case, and as excited as you may be about finally drawing what you need for your combo, everyone else is understandably not stoked to have an engaging game end abruptly because you finally drew into it.
August 22, 2013 6:32 p.m.
I had a discussion about a rule for infinite combos, even state based interaction (like you gain life the lose life, and if they lose life you gain life or Guilty Conscience and Stuffy Doll ) that they are allowed one full interaction cycle,
this would turn out...
August 22, 2013 6:44 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #19
MrKnify What about interactions like say any given mana doubler, Extraplanar Lens for example, and Palinchron where it takes a constant recasting of a new and different permanent?
August 22, 2013 7:28 p.m.
again you would get a full cycle, this would allow completing a full loop to initiate, ie; Palinchron comes out Extraplanar Lens adds mana, retun palinchon, extraplanar lens adds mana, cast palinchron, the lens adds mana return palinchron, lens adds mana, casting palinchron, loop rule takes affect lens is not allowed to add mana.
the hardest part is understand what is the full loop. with the previous example and the latter example you should be able to see the pattern.
hope this helps.
allows to have fun with loops
August 22, 2013 7:57 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #21
Lens doesn't add mana. It creates a replacement effect on how much mana your lands produce. Also, the palinchron is a new and different permanent every time you cast it and it successfully resolves so the only thing that you could make an argument about "Locking down" would be the lands and that just seems like it could cause some issues when you say "ok, your lands can no longer produce mana for this turn".
I'm not trying to poke holes in your theory of game play but I think that it would be better to define them better because most players will find the loophole. Maybe giving it a hard set of rules would be useful.
I'm sure everyone who plays that rule knows what you are talking about but if you ever have to explain it to someone it's best to have it ready in case someone goes "HAHA! Found the way to break it!" because for some people breaking things is what makes it fun.
August 22, 2013 9 p.m.
haters going to hate, its an alternate way for casual style play.
its basically you can perform the same motions making a loop.
as i said this is not a mtg rule it is an optional rule.
August 22, 2013 10:17 p.m.
breaking things is fun Ohthenoises I know i'm not the best at explaining things, I believe that if people want to use this, then at least they have a viable solution. I know how much a pain infinite combos can be, the one I listed as an example I have used - even hough its not actually an infinate combo, but an interaction of state based effects.
This choice, is usefull for those who want to use interactions like these without the need to instant kill a game. We all like it when out decks hit that point where its like an avalanch crashing down and unstopable. Like mstancea said; you should prepare your decks for this eventuality, especially if your getting into a more competitive game.
It not the lands producing mana, its the interaction of the loop that is ceased. if you add another card that say... unsummons he permenant then it breaks the cycle and you do it again. Adding a level of challenge to the "infinite" player as not to get an easy win.
August 23, 2013 12:03 a.m.
If you search gatherer for instant cards with the split second ability you will find that there is a solution for most combos simply by paying a little more cmc for a card with split second
September 12, 2013 8:55 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #25
Ehh maybe. Sometimes, I wait to combo out until people have limited mana open, given that I can survive.
September 13, 2013 8:46 a.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #26
When it comes to casual games, I don't think the problem are infinite combos, but rather instant-win combos. What of course includes most infinite combos. I also have no problem with loops per se. It's the anticlimactic end of the game that often doesn't even care about the current board state or how far you got ahead.
But what really annoys me about instant-win combos is that, in order to be able to deal with them as soon as they occur, I'm forced to waste 8 -16 cards on various counterspells and other cards that are useless in most situations, where I could use those slots to create intricate and interesting moves.
Yes indeed, instant-win combos force the opponent to play decks with a heavy emphasis on control, specifically counterspells. I for my part despise control decks. No offense, control players, but it's simply not much fun to play against one. I usually reach a point where I offer my opponent to play my side of the game too while I get myself another coffee/soda, because that's what's happening anyway.
However, the one thing I hate more than that is to play a control deck myself. I simply refuse to play a deck that is merely focusing on disturbing my opponent's playstyle instead of coming up with an entertaining strategy of my own.
I like Magic because of the endless possibilities, because unlike Chess or Checkers, every new opponent can introduce a whole new approach to the game. Everything that restrains my opponent or me from building an interesting deck is ruining the fun for me.
P.S. Yes, sometimes I use a few counterspells too, but mostly to keep opponents from using lame-ass board wipes or to counter counterspells they might play.
September 13, 2013 4:39 p.m.
I'm also not a huge fan of infinite combos; I've got no problem with it per se, but it feels less exciting to see it all come down to that instead of the cut-and-thrust of attack and defence. That said, I agree with the suggestions here: Make a deck that attacks the style rather than attacking the player.
I'll throw in Grip of Chaos. Not for every deck, but in the right kind of Commander deck (eg. Mine) it's a great way to foil a lot of combos simply by denying the player the right targets.
November 6, 2014 6:10 p.m.
(Argh, thread necromancy, my apologies. Need more coffee. But thanks for the advice; was helpful.)
Ohthenoises says... #2
You forgot Platinum Angel .
August 1, 2013 9:59 p.m.