Your view on land-destruction?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Sept. 10, 2014, 3:05 p.m. by Indigoindigo
I get the impression that a lot of players frown upon land-destruction, and mass land-destruction in particular. Do you think the use of some land destruction/disruption (Mwonvuli Acid-Moss , Plow Under , Reap and Sow ) is warranted in some cases - i.e. for not-so-powered decks wanting to put the brakes on the strongest player - or is land-destruction something you'd never recommend playing as it makes the game a lot less fun?
as an aside, Crucible of Worlds + Strip Mine is JUST as bad as Armageddon in my eyes. Don't be that guy!
September 10, 2014 3:08 p.m.
I would never recommend playing land destruction.
Commander is supposed to be a social, kitchen table format where you try to do the craziest things you can; infinite combos, infinite mana, gigantic creatures, and broken spells, it should be fun for people. Control is on the cusp for me; if you like control that's fine but I don't want to play for 5 hours while you try to Mind Slaver everyone to death. Besides there are better ways to screw the best player over without touching people's lands.
September 10, 2014 3:11 p.m.
Land Destruction as a whole is pretty heavily frowned upon, with really the only exception being Strip Mine and the like. I don't really think it should be as hated as it is, but some of it is warranted. Particularly Mass Land Destruction, because you can essentially reset the game for either the whole board or, more brutally, one particular player. Basically I'd say if you want to throw in a Bramblecrush or say ping lands with Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker or somthing like that, go for it, but building a whole deck around blowing up as much land as possible, or using that Crucible of Worlds combo or anything like that will make you lose friends. Basically just walk the line between realistically competitive and unnecessarily OP. I'm sure a lot of play groups feel differently about it too so it's sort of a matter of what they will allow you to get away with.
September 10, 2014 3:17 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #6
Land destruction is something that will see a rise in EDH. Ramping hard is so common, and something has to slow it down. People do not like things that slow them down from doing what they want, and that is a personal problem. Land destruction is important. Mass land destruction is for a deck that does not ramp, as board wipes are for decks with less creatures.
In a format where infinite combos are prevalent, you bet I am going to try to take out lands so they don't go off. Some people really hate land destruction, and some have the exact same feelings towards many other things. Counters, combos that give infinite turns, mana, creatures. If you are ok with running combos, but not land destruction, then I just don't understand.
Kill the lands. It is a balancing mechanic. Use it well, and use it wisely.
September 10, 2014 3:23 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #7
Social formats can be competitive. Also know that if you run mass land kill, you will see increased hate. The political aspect of the game can be a large factor. Assess your play group, and build accordingly.
September 10, 2014 3:26 p.m.
it also depends on your meta.
for the most part, mass ld is frowned upon, but some of the decks in my region are impossible to beat without some sort of ld. stuff like Volrath's Stronghold , Emeria, The Sky Ruin , Gaea's Cradle , Riptide Laboratory , Kor Haven , Maze of Ith , Academy Ruins , Cabal Coffers can either power out or recur unbeatable threats. also sometimes one player gets so far ahead that the best way to deal with them is to reduce the amount of mana they have to continue their spell output.
just don't be a dick and Strip Mine someone's t2 karoo land, or hook a Deadeye Navigator up to your Terastodon .
also, i did play mass ld in my mono-red edh deck. but that deck wasn't trying to win, it was just trying to blow stuff up. nothing wrong with that.
September 10, 2014 3:26 p.m.
The lack of people willing to play LD warps the format a bit. I think people would be building decks a lot differently if they were as concerned about a turn 4 land loss as they are about a turn 4 Khalia. I say have at it and use whatever strategy seems good/useful/fun.
Most people wont like LD but some will respect the hell out of it and IMO it's always good to bring a new strategy to the table.
September 10, 2014 3:37 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #10
Land destruction, like most forms of control, are not problems by themselves. However, when a player tries to be oppressive about it, it can be frustrating. I also don't particularly care for people who use these tools with no real win condition in mind. Why blow up all the land in the game if it is going to put you in a worse position than everyone else? If you destroy all my land after a board wipe took out the rest of the board state, you better have a plan to end the game soon, or you are just making the game boring.
The other problem with land destruction (and control) is the politics involved. If you are applying oppressive pressure on a select player while another player is free to do as they please, the game becomes a chore. You can't hold someone's arms behind their back while someone else hits them, and then wonder if that person felt like they had a good fight.
Any game tactic can ride the line between fair play and groan-worthy. I have a Uril deck that focuses on commander damage. I can expect to at least be able to take one person out before the game ends. If I choose the same person EVERY game, it's the same as being "that guy" with land destruction.
Essentially, it's not what you play, but how you play it.
September 10, 2014 3:39 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #11
LD makes ganes fun. Don't know what all this "anti-social" buisness is.
September 10, 2014 3:45 p.m.
cosmicteapot says... #12
I personally think that anyone should be allowed to play any deck that person wants. Mass LD doesn't ruin the game for me, it is just another challenge that I need to overcome.
I like land destruction as long as it has good reason to be in the deck, not just to drag the game longer and maybe win at some point. I enjoy competitive EDH, which I think is social and enjoyable (Most of the time, yes :D).
September 10, 2014 4:14 p.m.
TheNinjaJesus says... #13
Land destruction is a strategy to apply to any deck. For example, I used a deck that used Zhur-Taa Druid, Burning-Tree Emissary, Nykthos, Elvish Mystic and Sylvan Caryatid to ramp into Ember Swallower, Sylvan Primordial, Frenzied Tilling, amd Bramblecrush. Backup strategies included Stormbreath Dragon, Polukranos, Polis Crusher, and Xenagos, God of Revels. People loved it, and I won FNMs with it fairly regularly.
September 10, 2014 4:17 p.m.
Indigoindigo says... #14
Any opinions on "fair" LD-cards to run? Reap and Sow , Bramblecrush , Terastodon and Acidic Slime don't have to be LD, but brings some utility imo.
September 10, 2014 4:28 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #15
Strip Mine Wasteland to take out Cabal Coffers and Gaea's Cradle . It really depends how mature your play group is, I frequently drop t2 Braids, Cabal Minion or Smokestack shortly followed by Nether Void no one complains, they like challeneges. Some people who i've played with get salty as hell, it's really maturity dependant.
September 10, 2014 4:39 p.m.
It REALLY depends. I just put together a really competitive staxs deck here on tappedout, showed it to my group, and was told never to play it. Some of my more serious friends got really exited, mostly because you rarely see really hardcore decks outside of certain circles.
In my mind, I guess it comes down to are you doing it for a reason or just bogging the game down.
September 10, 2014 4:47 p.m.
Indigoindigo says... #17
Stopping the strongest player is why I'm considering it. I'm in mostly casual playgroups with the occasional really good deck that crushes everybody else.
September 10, 2014 5:04 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #18
Talk to them and ask to tone it back, the attitude that floats around in EDH that it's ok when someone has a deck on a higher powerlevel to single them out is childish.
September 10, 2014 5:08 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #19
It is ok to build a competitive deck in EDH. If you do, make sure to have several. Also make sure you have some sort of quick conversation before the game. Find a constant that gives you the best idea of what they are running. Ask what level their deck is in price 100-300-500-1000+ are the levels I think of when asking this. I have a deck around each level, so I know I can match power levels better. I still intend to win each game, but it is a little more matched. Other things you can ask is if they run ABUR duals and wasteland, fetches, shocks, guildgates. Some decks run combinations, but these are good indicators.
I fully agree with the team up on the guy running the infinite combos, and op stuff. That is how you teach them it is not ok to run that stuff. Singling them out is not any more childish then bringing a gun to a knife fight.
September 10, 2014 5:48 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #20
Didgeridooda, I agree until the last paragraph. Regardless of why they brought their 5c hermit druid combo to a group of strangers, if your reaction is to try and ruin their fun because you won't ask them to tone it back, your no better. Act politely and don't assume they just want to "lay their dick on the table".
September 10, 2014 5:58 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #21
Yeah, I have to say teaming up on the player who plays antisocially is probably the best way to deal with it, and not childish at all. It's the group telling them, "this is outside our realm of acceptability, and we'll tolerate you sleeving up and throwing down, but don't expect to win." That being said, it takes a mature player to realize the tactic is in play and adapt to it...instead of throwing a hissy fit.
I agree that spot land destruction is almost a necessity. My Mayael deck plays Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine , Wasteland AND Tectonic Edge more as Mutually Assured Destruction than anything. My goal isn't to blow up everybody's land in a degenerate way, it's just so I'm equipped to take out the Gaea's Cradle and the Maze of Ith , The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale that are going to f up my game plan. You need to be prepared to cope with whatever threats you run into.
As far as mass land destruction goes, I used to run Tyrant of Discord +Realm Razer to pull out with Defense of the Heart , and it leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth after. I don't mind coping with challenges, but so often Mass LD is just to slow the game down. In a format that plays long, you want to make room for multiple games, and Armageddon shouldn't read "everybody scoop so we can just start over."
September 10, 2014 6:06 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #22
Totally agree. You can be very polite before the game in talking to someone, and finding out their level of play/power. It is not just up to one side either, you are absolutely right. All parties must convey some sort of expectation prior to the game. Some people ban land destruction, combos, "too many" counters, infect, and all sorts of other things. I don't agree with restrictions like that, but if I am playing with a group who does I either will accommodate those rules or move on to another group.
Some people want a more restrictive ban list, and others like myself would rather see the ban list as small as possible.
September 10, 2014 6:07 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #23
I have also been just talking mass land destruction. The way I play, spot land destruction is a given. Some lands are just too strong, and you have to have a way to deal with that.
September 10, 2014 6:11 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #24
I have the same mentality, but by definition sitting there getting mad doesn't often stop the player, my lgs has become toxic for edh. All the low power/budget players want their rules and high power players like myself want more freedom. No one actually asks people to stop playing a deck that's flat out winning, just tries to gang up and often fail, and get frustrated. This isn't forum for it so I'll drop the topic. But not being polite isn't solving anything.
September 10, 2014 7:05 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #25
For the most part the people I play with are other adults, so self regulating is a little bit better then I expected. I do not recall any real problems that we have had like this.
There are a few newer people I started playing with. They are more in to restricting, and looking down on certain things. I made a different deck in case I play them again. I like to try to make sure my decks fit the games I am playing. I play to have fun, but I want to win, and keep the game fun for everyone.
September 10, 2014 7:15 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #26
Spot land-D is fine. You need an out for cards like Glacial Chasm and Maze of Ith , even Serra's Sanctum and Cabal Coffers can get out of control to the point that they warrant an answer. This is something that can be reasonably addressed/used in almost any meta.
Now, if you're playing a casual game with a bunch of guys playing ramp decks with big spells and you roll out mass land-D with control a-la Karn, Silver Golem + Mycosynth Lattice or Land Equilibrium w/ artifact mana then you're kind of a dick. Throwing out Jokulhaups with an Avacyn, Angel of Hope that you cheated out with Kaalia of the Vast is basically telling everyone at the board "don't play with me anymore." Having that deck in your group warps everyone else's deck, forcing them to play around you to even be competitive, which isn't a meta a lot of people enjoy playing in casually.
September 10, 2014 8:30 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #27
The irony being, from a cimpetitive standpoint Boros colors are the best at mass LD and need that level of mana denial to compete, yet a lot of casual players complain 
is weak.
September 10, 2014 9:10 p.m.
Land destruction comes in two varieties, and both have a reason to be seen in EDH, but there's some meta consideration that needs to happen first.
Spot land destruction should be considered if someone in your group is using things like Gaea's Cradle , Cabal Coffers , Serra's Sanctum , or another powerhouse land to be oppressive.
Mass land destruction should be avoided most of the time, but I see it having a use for one thing: Finishing the game in an aggressive deck. Got Avacyn, Angel of Hope in play with a verifiable army? Go ahead and play Armageddon . Zurgo Helmsmasher swinging in for mad beats? Cycle Decree of Annihilation , buddy. Mass land destruction, oftentimes, is used to prolong a game for a player who's behind rather than to finish the game with a player that's ahead. That should not be the case.
September 10, 2014 11:47 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #29
LD as removal is fine (Strip Mine your Cabal Coffers , etc.), but otherwise it needs to do something to make you win. I like erabel's example of Armageddon to kill everyone with Avacyn, Angel of Hope and friends in a couple turns. I don't like the example of a game I played last week, where a guy Armageddon -ed into Faith's Reward during a 5-person game and then took literally 10 more turns to finally kill the one opponent who didn't just quit. That was freaking awful.
September 11, 2014 9:40 a.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #30
I agree with erabel when he says, " Mass land destruction, oftentimes, is used to prolong a game for a player who's behind rather than to finish the game with a player that's ahead. That should not be the case."
Staying alive long enough to die in a few turns is not "good strategy". You know your deck. You know what answers you have. I am assuming most of them do not involve having no land.
September 11, 2014 1:28 p.m.
Now to add another dimension to the discussion: What about Different types of mass LD, things like Ruination , and Color specific ones such as Acid Rain , Boil , Boiling Seas ,Tsunami , Flashfires , and Stench of Evil .
September 11, 2014 5:01 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #32
Color specific is something I have faced before. I totally under stood it though. I ramp hard in my omnath deck, and the guy that acid rained me 2 times in one game could not keep up with the ramp. I totally understood him running the card in his deck, just did not expect it when it first happened.
So I guess I feel the same about type specific as I do with overall. If you want to use one of your spots for it, then go for it.
September 11, 2014 5:11 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #33
Land desrruction or otherwise, if something works for your deck run it. change how you play/what deck you uwe if someone gets frustrated.
September 11, 2014 5:37 p.m.
readerrw07 says... #34
nothing to say you cant run some land destruction, but dont be surprised if people dont want to play against your "blow up all of the lands" deck or your "Memnarch steals every land you play" deck. Cant fault people for not wanting to play games that arent going to be fun
JWiley129 says... #2
There's a difference between spot LD, like Strip Mine ing a guy's Maze of Ith , and mass LD, Armageddon ing the entire board. Mass LD is almost universally hated, but spot LD can be fine, in small doses. I've been debating putting in a Strip Mine into my decks so I can deal with troublesome lands like Maze of Ith or Emeria, The Sky Ruin and stop some land combos going on. But I REALLY hate mass LD b/c the game can go on forever at that point, if the person who cast it isn't already winning.
September 10, 2014 3:08 p.m.