Opinions wanted: will they reprint fetchlands?
General forum
Posted on June 16, 2013, 6:31 p.m. by Goody
We saw the reprint of shocklands in RTR block, which makes sense as they were introduced in original Ravnica. If WotC follows this same logic then fetchlands would only ever be reprinted if there was a return to Zendikar.
Do you guys think they would come up with a functional reprint of fetches? Maybe they'd fetch for basics only, or bring lands into play tapped. I ask because the biggest thing keeping me away from modern are the price of fetches, and with the reprint of shocks qnd the change in the Standard scene lately, it seems that Wizards is trying to make the game more accessible and not so much "staples cost you limbs" like it has been.
Epochalyptik says... #3
Given that Zendikar was ravaged by cosmic monstrosities, I doubt we'll soon see any attempt to return (Zendikar was only four blocks ago, anyway).
I highly doubt they'd do functional reprints of the fetches because that would lead to enormous complications in the secondary market. I know WOTC doesn't really focus on the secondary market, but I do believe they must take it into account when they make decisions (the Reserved List is proof).
I think they may release fetches in a special product (something similar to Modern Masters) in the future. I'm wondering whether they'll reprint the ONS fetches for use in Modern.
June 16, 2013 6:42 p.m.
Perhaps a fetch for land types (forest, mountain, etc) that brings them into play tapped. They could print this in theros even, who knows. Or even a return to zendikar would be enough to bring the fetch prices down.
I really doubt they'd ever reprint the original duals though, but perhaps something similar to shocks
June 16, 2013 6:46 p.m.
I guess zendikar IS a bit wrecked haha. Modern masters seemed to be a perfect place to reprint fetches, I wonder why they didn't...
June 16, 2013 6:48 p.m.
hollandboys says... #6
I agree, Wizards missed a perfectly good chance to get people into modern with MM. It really hasn't decreased the price of modern much and the packs are SO expensive. I like the idea of MM but I'm disappointed with how they did it
June 16, 2013 6:50 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
First, they can't reprint the ABUR duals because they're on the RL.
A Return to Zendikar block would be very difficult to do. The Eldrazi were basically in the process of destroying everything at the end of ROE, so there would be very little left for either story or balance purposes.
There are already cards like Flood Plain , which aren't even playable in competitive environments because they're too slow.
June 16, 2013 6:52 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
Modern Masters was explicitly stated to contain cards from Eighth Edition up until Alara Reborn. Zendikar block and up are all fairly recent sets, and I doubt WOTC saw much point in printing more cards from them.
I don't know that you can fairly say that MM was disappointing, though. There were a TON of highly playable and very coveted cards included in that release. WOTC did the right thing in limiting the print run because Magic is a collectible card game. They can't just flood the market with large quantities of every card because that destroys the premise of CCGs and also angers a very established base of players and collectors.
June 16, 2013 6:56 p.m.
hollandboys says... #9
It is a great set, I agree. However, from the standpoint of someone trying to get into modern (which was supposed to be the target audience for this release) it really doesn't make it any easier. Ya, the cards are around more but they aren't any cheaper. And at $15/pack I can't really afford to take that gamble on any real basis. I thought that was what MM is for, and from that point of view it was disappointing
June 16, 2013 7:04 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #10
As others have said, we are unlikely to return to Zendikar anytime soon. But I wouldn't be surprised to see another Modern Masters set in a few years, and they might get reprinted then.
Also, I'm not sure that the Fetches are necessarily restricted to appearing on the plane of Zendikar. Each of them basically just references a more specific type of terrain than the basic lands:
Marsh Flats
- A flat wide open marshy area, essentially a flooded plain
Arid Mesa
- A flat, dry, elevated piece of land
Misty Rainforest
- A dense forest with a rainy climate
Scalding Tarn
- A hot body of water
Verdant Catacombs
- An overgrown underground cemetery.
Compare that to the shock lands, which are thematically intertwined with the guilds of Ravnica. You are not likely to just find a Godless Shrine , or a Sacred Foundry , or Breeding Pool , or Hallowed Fountain on just any plane. So, they pretty much had to go back to Ravnica to reprint those.
June 16, 2013 7:11 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
MM did make it easier, though. The intent was to improve players' chances of breaking into Modern, and it did. Players who drafted or otherwise opened MM now have plenty of format staples to use. On top of that, the unused cards are now appearing with vastly improved frequency in trade binders, so those who didn't open any MM can still acquire the cards.
Don't confuse the intent to improve the situation with the intent to give all players a free pass into Modern. WOTC is, again, limited in what it can do. The fact that MM exists is itself a huge statement about their understanding of players' wants. WOTC can't viably print hundreds of thousands of these cards and destroy the secondary market so everyone who wants to play Modern can play Modern.
June 16, 2013 7:11 p.m.
I guess that makes sense, zendikar is still fairly recent. It sucks for me because I came into the game again at the end of zendikar and didn't have much of a chance to get any fetches :(
June 16, 2013 7:13 p.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #13
Actually most MM commons and uncommons are dropping pretty steadily in price, as well as a few of the rares. Can't imagine that trend changing after GP Vegas either.
In any case, I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that Wizards really dislikes the RL, but can't really get around it due to legal reasons -- so I'm not sure if that's a good indication of their regard for the secondary market. If anything they'd be interested in printing fetches as a means to "sell" a set.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some incarnation of fetch lands, reprint or otherwise, within the next few sets; hopefully we'll be seeing some kind of color fixer in Theoros considering the lack of duals in m14.
June 16, 2013 7:15 p.m.
I am a bit confused as to some of the card choices in MM though. I assume the set isn't comprised entirely of modern staples? Some of the cards I've opened seem pretty unplayable, so I can't imagine they would be in many modern decks. Did they fill out spots with cards to make MM playable by itself in limited?
June 16, 2013 7:24 p.m.
(Insert fetchland name here)
Land
T, Pay 1 life, sacrifice (fetchland name): Search your library for a (basic land type) card and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.
Slightly worse, but still a good alternative. A fetchland that fetches islands can fetch a Tundra , Underground Sea , a Tropical Island , and a Volcanic Island .
Then again, a Misty Rainforest can fetch all that and Savannah , Taiga , and Bayou .
June 16, 2013 7:42 p.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #16
They definitely wanted MM to be extremely draftable (to which they succeeded) so most of the "junk" cards are probably limited chaff that wouldn't see great use elsewhere. Besides that, stuff like the Dragons are more for EDH than Modern. Additionally there were a few Legacy cards in there as well, like Faerie Macabre (or so I'm told).
June 16, 2013 7:42 p.m.
The ones I can think of are Tarmogoyf , Chalice of the Void , Echoing Truth , Path to Exile , Vendilion Clique , Empty the Warrens , Grapeshot , Lava Spike , Rift Bolt , Eternal Witness , Krosan Grip , Knight of the Reliquary , AEther Vial , Sword of Fire and Ice , and Sword of Light and Shadow .
Progenitus used to be playable in legacy, but it was overshadowed by Emrakul, the Aeons Torn , or so I heard.
June 16, 2013 7:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
Well, the Reserved List exists because of disputes with collectors, so it's an example of WOTC acknowledging the secondary market. I didn't say they liked the RL or the shape of the secondary market; those are entirely different questions.
Not everything in MM is playable in constructed, but a large portion of it is. Many of the commons and uncommons that aren't playable in constructed are playable in limited (despite being chaff on their own).
June 16, 2013 8:42 p.m.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 2 sets with Fetchlands were Onslaught (for allied colors)m and Zendikar (for opposing colors)...
The Onslaught lands are not in Modern, only because they were printed before 8th edition; Zendikar lands, however were printed after 8th.
The Onslaught lands are: Flooded Strand , Polluted Delta , Bloodstained Mire , Wooded Foothills , Windswept Heath
There is a belief that these 5 lands cannot be reprinted due to their presence on the "Reserved List"...
...But, these 5 lands do NOT appear on the reserve list. - The list can be viewed at http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy, and does not contain those lands... in fact, it states that no card printer after Mercadian Masques (October 4th, 1999) will appear on the Reserve list. Onslaught was 6 sets later (October 1st, 2001).
....perhaps I'm missing something, but I see no logical reason these lands could not be reprinted in a new set, and make them Modern legal.
June 16, 2013 9:25 p.m.
Oh I totally didn't know that. Maybe they could reprint the Onslaught lands, perhaps even the Zendikar lands if you follow Arachnarchist's line of thought.
I kind of hope so, not gonna lie, but I can imagine many people's collections will decrease in value significantly if that happens.
June 16, 2013 9:29 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
I mentioned that in post #2, but I don't know if they'll be reprinted to be Modern-legal. It would certainly be a boost to Modern, but it would drive the ONS fetch prices up and raise the barrier to entry that much more.
Both fetch cycles, allied and enemy, could logically be included in any set, but the ramifications of printing those cards again bear consideration. You have to contend with the aftermath of introducing these cards into new formats, the reaction from long-time players and collectors, and the actual impact of the reprint on the availability and value of these cards.
June 16, 2013 10:11 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #22
The fetchlands are all fair game to be reprinted, but that doesn't mean it will happen any time soon, if ever.
Then lands that cannot be reprinted are the alpha duals. You will not be seeing a Volcanic Island reprint, ever.
June 16, 2013 10:17 p.m.
I really liked the idea of "Pay 1 life and sacrifice this land, search your library for an Island card and put it into play.." It would be strictly worse than the original fetches, but it would have some value with the shocklands, still fixing the mana, even though it's not AS good as the others. Also a cycle of those lands would provide a greater card availability.
June 17, 2013 1:32 a.m.
KingAtticus says... #24
I don't think they did a bad thing by making MM. Although the price of the cards didn't drop much it made the cards easier to get, got more people into modern, and now people were able to get those cards without going and buying the cards as singles or buying like 20 different booster boxes. I really hope that they do reprint fetch lands in a set like MM i'm hoping they make MM2 (maybe not with that name but). If they want to make the game more affordable not just modern but vintage and legacy they have to reprint them.
November 21, 2013 1:03 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
@KingAtticus: They can't ever reprint cards on the Reserved List, so the chances of seeing a paper Vintage or Legacy Masters are pretty slim. Many of the iconic cards in those formats are on the RL (not all of them, but quite a few).
November 21, 2013 1:05 a.m.
KrosanTusker says... #26
Fetches are a 3 on the storm scale so I reckon we'll see them again. As has been said, they weren't in MM so maybe Wizards will reprint them in standard like Thoughtseize and Mutavault ? After shocks have rotated out, fetches won't be as strong in standard, so maybe we'll see them next autumn.
Maybe...
November 21, 2013 5:42 a.m.
Trollhoffer says... #27
Epochalyptik, I often find that you're a strong voice of reason when it comes to the broader topics concerning this hobby, but right now, I think you're barking up the wrong forest.
MtG has a very diverse and widespread playerbase across continents, ethnicities and languages. A significant amount of MtG players don't necessarily live in wealthy countries, and so the larger businesses that stock a wide variety of cards may well be out of their grasp. What's more, many MtG players enter the game during their high school years, when disposable income is slim. Other players come from disadvantaged backgrounds, are seeking employment, and even the most fortunate of us have to put up with artificially inflated prices for popular singles courtesy of certain game stores buying up supplies (so they can artificially inflate said prices).
As you say, it would be unreasonable to make absolutely every card available to everyone. That's just a fact of scarcity. But even living a comfortable first-world lifestyle in Australia, though, there are cards that are just incredibly rare locally, and ordering from where scarcity is lower like the USA, the shipping prices are exorbitant. There are cards me and many others cannot access for reasonable money because of where we live -- and I live where the heart of Australia's thriving nerd culture blossoms. What I'm trying to say here is that I sit right near the extreme end of the fortunate side of things, and yet the entry into certain formats can still be extremely difficult. Many other MtG players are much worse off.
One of the best things for the continued health of this game and its many communities lowering the barrier to entry across a range of formats. That's a significant problem in not only Modern, but even in Standard, where the land base to even enable certain kinds of decks is liable to run into the hundreds of dollars. So let's take a step back here and consider that someone may have to pay hundreds of dollars to get consistent play out of a bunch of cards they already have. That's absolutely insane, and the secondary market is doing the game very few favours by raising these barriers against newer and disadvantaged players. Tarmagoyf itself is well over $100. One-hundred! For a printed piece of cardboard.
Sure enough, Wizards can't reprint a bunch of popular cards to the extent that everyone can have an easy playset. But that doesn't mean they can't try to find an intermediate solution that would lower the barrier to entry into various formats, and part of that solution is almost certainly printing a higher supply of those popular, sought-after cards. How to prevent large secondary market shops from buying out large supplies and inflating prices is beyond me, but Wizards can only benefit from finding a solution to this.
Ultimately, Wizards ought to be pushing for a fair playing field, and so should we. And that means not punishing a significant amount of the playerbase for not having the disposable income to buy a playset of Tarmagoyfs, which would run you $600 where I live. If you don't have those Goyfs, Bobs and fetches? Too bad -- you're not able to effectively play whole deck archetypes in the format. We're talking about a card game here. The broader deck options should be available to everyone, even if the laws of scarcity and demand will always be in effect. We shouldn't have a format where entry is based on income. Standard is bad enough with the need to consistently update every few months, and the scarcity of some Eternal cards makes those formats tough to breach. If anything, Modern should be the format that provides accessibility, with its diverse card pool and the plethora of deck-building options available. Currently, however, the format hinges in access to land bases and a handful of extremely expensive cards. That's not good for Wizards, for players, or for the game of MtG itself.
I can understand entirely if some players were to become angry because an expensive card they own dropped in value significantly due to a reprint or the printing of a new card that competed with it. But I'd consider that both a fair and necessary price to pay for an overall healthier and more accessible game.
November 21, 2013 6:19 a.m.
goyfs dropped to $120 when MM released, they made him and bob more accessible, regardless of goyf being $150 again, there are a LOT more in circultion, and my LGS still has over 12 boxes of MM in stock. if more people get into modern demand goes up and prices go back up.
not to mention for awhile there shocks were under $10 each, meanwhile old rav shocks were stil twice the price, reprints like this obviously help the entry into modern,but there are plenty of decks that dont use goyf or bob or shocks and are top tier decks, yes you cant play that archtype but thats like saying you can drive a car but cant race ferraris bc of the entry barrier, not everyone can have everything they want, so we adept and do what we can with what we have.
i dont think onslaught fetches will be reprinted in a set, but maybe more player rewards/judge foils/special rpints with modern boarders to help reduce entry to legacy, while zen fetches maybe in the next MM set, theyve shown theyll rerint cards like Mutavault Thoughtseize Scavenging Ooze so with fetches at $50 and less, i think its easily possible theyll see reprints, or even in a set after theros block
November 21, 2013 9:44 a.m.
I have no problem with keeping a little bit of scarcity and not going the Yu-gi-oh "Oh, it's a good rare? We'll just print it at common next set so the little kids can have it" route, but the idea that the game would collapse if the secondary market stopped being something you could invest in like stocks is absolutely absurd.
The arguments for the Reserve List are generally along the lines of "People have invested a lot of time and money into getting those cards BECAUSE they are a good investment, and if you suddenly made them more common, those people would be super angry and leave the game."
And that might be true, BUT, these are people (and I know, I've met several) who are seriously treating their Magic collection as future down payments on houses, as college funds for their children etc etc. And that is dangerous, and unhealthy, and WOTC shouldn't be doing anything to support that lifestyle choice.
What happens in a couple years when say...fully immersive VR becomes common and cheap, and there is a game you can play, online or in person with friends or at stores, where you are literally looking out over the battlefield and watching your dragon breath fire on some dudes? There is a pretty reasonable chance that technology is going to be what pushes Magic into a decline and fall that makes the cards worthless WAY MORE than it is that angry collectors quitting would.
Some scarcity is good, some variance in value is good. It's one of the ways they can print weak, average, good and amazing cards without the weaker cards being even more useless than they are now.
But 100+ dollars in modern/standard format for a single card is not "good investment" it is "A barrier to entry that costs them money through people who can't afford it."
If they instituted a policy that said "Any time we see a card stay steadily over 50 dollars for more than 2 months, it will be reprinted at rare or mythic rare in the next block it fits" do you REALLY think that speculators and collectors would be so infuriated that they would quit? And if so, do you really think that those people represent enough of a percentage of WOTC's business that the game would go under?
For every one person who would not play any more because the maximum value of a card in standard is 50 dollars, I think there are 5 people who would play MORE because now top tier cards are actually going to be within their reach.
November 21, 2013 10:28 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #30
@Trollhoffer: In an ideal world, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But in this case, idealism has to take a back seat to realism.
Collectors and heavily-invested players are a strong force, "politically" speaking. Although it would be nice for every player to have access to every card (a la cockatrice), the reality is that MTG is a collectible card game. Inherent in the design of TCGs/CCGs is a supply and demand system and a secondary market.
It's difficult to reprint certain cards outside of special-release products because heavily-invested players will feel slighted monetarily. Additionally, heavy reprinting begins to affect even the moderately-invested players because there's a certain appeal to not buying product until it gets reprinted and is cheaper.
I do think - as I've said before - that Modern Masters is a step in the right direction. It piques interest, offers just enough increase in supply to keep the market stable, and demonstrates an attentiveness to the needs of the players. Outside of very selective core/block reprinting (e.g. Thoughtseize ), special products are the way to go. You can actually follow this philosophy from MMA into THS.
As far as your penultimate paragraph goes, you'd need to propose a "real" solution. Players aren't in control of card power. People play Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant and Vendilion Clique because those cards are powerful. They play those cards because they're what's best in the format. And that will happen no matter what format you play.
Continuing from that argument, there were a couple proposals in another recent thread that we should ban pricey cards or make a new format without pricey cards. Neither of these are real solutions to the problem. Banning or excluding cards based on price is a very arbitrary and dangerous policy because the secondary market is controlled by the players and stores, while the primary market and game are controlled by those who would do the banning. Additionally, you come to the slippery slope argument, which carries real weight here. Who decides how much is too much? How can you exclude certain cards based on an arbitrary scale? How do you account for the inevitable, vicious cycle of price fluctuation as the format changes post-ban?
The "budget" format idea is also unappealing as a "transition" into expensive formats. The meta would be completely different; different to the point that the "transition" format would bear little resemblance to the actual format. It's also not a real solution to the problem because it doesn't do anything about the barrier to entry to Modern or any other existing formats.
Every format has its trade-offs. Standard has a relatively low barrier to entry (at least, it does since rotation; ISD-RTR Standard was terrible because it had the highest barrier to entry of any iteration of Standard), but it changes frequently. Modern has a higher barrier to entry, but it offers diverse and stable options. Legacy and Vintage also have options, but they have the highest barrier to entry.
@mckin: Actually, Tarmogoyf was about $100-115, and Dark Confidant was about $50-60, pre-MMA. MMA's release actually increased price. The shocks shot up from $10 to $20-30 once Modern started (before RTR).
@Devonin: Wizards admitted the Reserved List was a mistake, but they can't change it now. They're committed to it.
People will take advantage of the market regardless of your reprint policy. It's not a great habit when it goes too far, but you can't really stop people from doing it. (I would argue that it isn't anyone's right to stop them, but that's another debate entirely.)
A more progressive reprint policy is a good idea, but it will take time to ease into one. I think MMA, M14, and THS are the beginnings of that process. It's hard to say that the policy should be completely driven by the secondary market, though.
November 21, 2013 2:50 p.m.
@Epochalyptik I would never suggest they should be stopped. I'm a fairly staunch libertarian. If they want to invest in Magic Cards as though they were stocks and bonds with the hopes of selling out for a house in 20 years, more power to them. What shouldn't be done is -catering- to that attitude as it is dangerous in the extreme.
You know what is more angry than a collector if they reprint Force of Will? A collector when some new paradigm shift in entertainment makes Magic worthless overnight.
Dallie says... #2
Well, if they're bringing them into play tapped, then Evolving Wilds always serves that. Though they could be like a mini-"Farseek ". That would be cool.
I am definitely hoping for something that eases running dual and tri-colour decks, without necessarily being slow. And I am very sad that duals are SO expensive.
June 16, 2013 6:38 p.m.